EPTis there any build order for this? when is the proper time to take all 4 of my gases? is quick +1 armor +1 melee good? is there anyway i can go pure ling in ZvP with this style without getting completly runover by +1 zealots and sentry FFs? sry if it was already explained in a previous page.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 204
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
is there any build order for this? when is the proper time to take all 4 of my gases? is quick +1 armor +1 melee good? is there anyway i can go pure ling in ZvP with this style without getting completly runover by +1 zealots and sentry FFs? sry if it was already explained in a previous page. | ||
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VoirDire
Sweden1923 Posts
On March 05 2012 23:20 Ballistixz wrote: i really want to try to go the old bling style ZvP of dropping banelings on top of the toss army and using speedlings for drop harassment and denying expos/etc. but i cant figure out a good build order for it. most of the time my ovie speed+drop come out to late or i lose to a stupid +1 zealot push which, sometimes, forces me to go roach when i dont want to. is there any build order for this? when is the proper time to take all 4 of my gases? is quick +1 armor +1 melee good? is there anyway i can go pure ling in ZvP with this style without getting completly runover by +1 zealots and sentry FFs? sry if it was already explained in a previous page. Day9 covered it in his "steal this build" series: http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-morrow-s-zvp-5274950 | ||
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Ballistixz
United States1269 Posts
On March 05 2012 23:31 VoirDire wrote: Day9 covered it in his "steal this build" series: http://blip.tv/day9tv/starcraft-2-steal-this-build-morrow-s-zvp-5274950 thx for the link but i need a bit more info then that. what happens if toss opens stargate or responds with voids? for me it auto kills the build because i am now forced to deviate and make hydras or spire to deal with him massing a ton of air. | ||
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Timmer
United States4 Posts
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JedSaje
United States30 Posts
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frontstab
Canada51 Posts
 replay if needed: http://replayfu.com/r/btNH9f | ||
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Aulisemia
United States123 Posts
I played a ZvZ on Antiga Shipyard with the replay included below. I felt like the game was very even with tech, drone counts and expansions being very similar. I GG'd out of the game after my roach/ling attack failed but after watching the replay I think I was still in a fairly good position even after losing my whole army. My question is with the attack itself @ 14:15 - I'm still very new to zerg and honestly am at a loss as to why I lost the engagement. My army is 24 roaches with 1/1 upgrades, 30 lings (without speed, ugh) at 0/1 upgrades. I'm moving up a ramp into a well positioned roach army of 37 roaches that are at 0/0 upgrades and he has no spine crawlers or queens in the engagement. From my Terran and Protoss experience I feel like this is an engagement I should win 100% of the time because of the similar army value and better upgrades, but I get demolished. So, these are my main questions: 1) Is Roach/Ling an inferior composition to pure Roach armies? 1a) Should I focus on units instead of going for the quick 1/1 and 2/2 upgrades? 2) My positioning was pretty terrible, should I attempt to micro my lings around the side for a quicker surround? 3) Is the concave at the top of the ramp just something that I should not be attacking into, i.e. should I just cut in and attempt to kill his 3rd? http://replayfu.com/r/CGXn4c | ||
-KarakStarcraft-
United States258 Posts
Notes about this game: Got the lair early, but then decided to take a quick 3rd when I felt like I was pretty safe, so I didn't use the lair as quick as I wanted to. That was my only real mistake early that I can spot. The rest feels alright. Was there a spot I could have just killed him before going to late game? Perhaps should have rolled a muta switch? I'm just really struggling vs. 3+ base Protoss when he gets that 3rd quick and early. http://drop.sc/126891 | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
On March 06 2012 12:23 Karak wrote: Hi guys. I could really use some help with my late game ZvP. NA mid-masters Zerg. Notes about this game: Got the lair early, but then decided to take a quick 3rd when I felt like I was pretty safe, so I didn't use the lair as quick as I wanted to. That was my only real mistake early that I can spot. The rest feels alright. Was there a spot I could have just killed him before going to late game? Perhaps should have rolled a muta switch? I'm just really struggling vs. 3+ base Protoss when he gets that 3rd quick and early. http://drop.sc/126891 I too struggle with late game ZvP. If the guy is trying to take a fast 3rd, IE. 8-10 mins, is stay on 2 gas, and go mass roach ling. If they don't have perfect FF's they will find it very difficult to survive that. Actually playing late game ZvP I have no idea, I mean BL Infestor is obviously your goal but I never really get there, I prefer mass pressure early. One thing that I learned from Genius v DRG is that he does much the same, with the mass roach ling pressure, but then transitions into muta ling, which seems to be very effective. | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
Here's how I see it: Roaches get owned by force fields and immortals in the back. Zerglings can't touch anything due to force fields. Hydras come out too late, maybe? Mutas definitely come out too late and struggle vs. stalker/sentry. Bait force fields early and try for ling surround? Bait force fields early and try to surround with roach/ling? Is the key here to hope the Protoss uses all his sentry energy before engaging at your base? | ||
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Oboeman
Canada3980 Posts
On March 06 2012 12:23 Karak wrote: Hi guys. I could really use some help with my late game ZvP. NA mid-masters Zerg. Notes about this game: Got the lair early, but then decided to take a quick 3rd when I felt like I was pretty safe, so I didn't use the lair as quick as I wanted to. That was my only real mistake early that I can spot. The rest feels alright. Was there a spot I could have just killed him before going to late game? Perhaps should have rolled a muta switch? I'm just really struggling vs. 3+ base Protoss when he gets that 3rd quick and early. http://drop.sc/126891 I suggest getting drops. Being able to put a few units in his main while attacking his 3rd is always very effective against a protoss who has been relying on forcefields to defend. Drop enough stuff in his main that one warp in won't quite be enough to deal with it, and attack his expansions with the rest of your army. All game long, you can be constantly dropping lings into his main (or expansions). I often get easy snipes on things like templar archives with ling drops. Baneling drops become an option, but I think you should upgrade drops whether you plan on using banelings or not. Other than that, don't suicide infestors. You could have canceled that expansion with just zerglings. You really needed those infestors to protect your broodlords, either with fungal or even just by dumping infested terrans to create a death trap if he wants to blink at you. Spread out your broodlords and corruptors. When trying to hold the gold, you should have creep up the lane and put your spines there. Instead of concentrating your army at the gold, you want a huge arc from cliff to cliff so there is nowhere good to vortex, while spines and infestors prevent him from trying to pick off any broodlords with his army. I posted this gameearlier in response to a similar question about beating ZvP lategame. It's not a perfect game but hopefully it can provide some inspiration on ways to help deal with protoss in the lategame. I'm also NA mid-masters. There's three motherships (one battle with broodlord spread vs vortex, the other times I scout it with a changeling and suicide-snipe it before it has 100 energy). Protoss claims 7 different bases total (but I don't let him hold onto them all at the same time, don't worry). Lots of ling drops and nydus worms and fun stuff like that. Zerglings are the late game hero. They seem useless in a huge scale battle, but they are so useful at killing things everywhere else. http://drop.sc/106973 | ||
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Effay
United States153 Posts
On March 06 2012 13:21 Falcon-sw wrote: How do you counter a FFE, 7-gate immortal/sentry/stalker push? Stephano got pwned by this recently. Here's how I see it: Roaches get owned by force fields and immortals in the back. Zerglings can't touch anything due to force fields. Hydras come out too late, maybe? Mutas definitely come out too late and struggle vs. stalker/sentry. Bait force fields early and try for ling surround? Bait force fields early and try to surround with roach/ling? Is the key here to hope the Protoss uses all his sentry energy before engaging at your base? From my understanding without hydra/roach or infestor/ling you just die if protoss has good FFs. | ||
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Amaterasu1234
United States317 Posts
On March 06 2012 14:16 Effay wrote: From my understanding without hydra/roach or infestor/ling you just die if protoss has good FFs. Taking it further, how do you get to infestors so quickly? Seems like the timing for getting infestors is razor thin...at least it seems to be in the games that I play... | ||
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Host-
New Zealand459 Posts
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On March 06 2012 14:13 Oboeman wrote: I suggest getting drops. Being able to put a few units in his main while attacking his 3rd is always very effective against a protoss who has been relying on forcefields to defend. Drop enough stuff in his main that one warp in won't quite be enough to deal with it, and attack his expansions with the rest of your army. All game long, you can be constantly dropping lings into his main (or expansions). I often get easy snipes on things like templar archives with ling drops. Baneling drops become an option, but I think you should upgrade drops whether you plan on using banelings or not. Other than that, don't suicide infestors. You could have canceled that expansion with just zerglings. You really needed those infestors to protect your broodlords, either with fungal or even just by dumping infested terrans to create a death trap if he wants to blink at you. Spread out your broodlords and corruptors. When trying to hold the gold, you should have creep up the lane and put your spines there. Instead of concentrating your army at the gold, you want a huge arc from cliff to cliff so there is nowhere good to vortex, while spines and infestors prevent him from trying to pick off any broodlords with his army. I posted this gameearlier in response to a similar question about beating ZvP lategame. It's not a perfect game but hopefully it can provide some inspiration on ways to help deal with protoss in the lategame. I'm also NA mid-masters. There's three motherships (one battle with broodlord spread vs vortex, the other times I scout it with a changeling and suicide-snipe it before it has 100 energy). Protoss claims 7 different bases total (but I don't let him hold onto them all at the same time, don't worry). Lots of ling drops and nydus worms and fun stuff like that. Zerglings are the late game hero. They seem useless in a huge scale battle, but they are so useful at killing things everywhere else. http://drop.sc/106973 Yeah I've actually been having a lot of success doing roach/hydra drops against protoss trying to do fast third builds off only upgraded gateway units, especially on maps like metalopolis where the third is pretty far from the main even if he didn't delay blink. This would be pretty bad on cloud kingdom since the third location basically defends the main, and if you want to drop his natural he can defend that ledge/drop area with a few cannons.... On those maps I just go hive while my 4th is going up and try to win with tech. I fcking suck at zvz these days though.... t.t every time i 15 hatch i get 10 pooled, and every time i go 14/14 to be safe from 10 pool the other guy goes 15 hatch and just gets way ahead. On March 06 2012 14:53 Amaterasu1234 wrote: Taking it further, how do you get to infestors so quickly? Seems like the timing for getting infestors is razor thin...at least it seems to be in the games that I play... You can't get infestors with NP out that fast unless you stop droning pre-emptively and happen to blind counter his build. I've practiced trying to defend this 7 gate immortal push by going roach ling infestor, trying to get NP finished to steal the immortals when he attacks, but you simply cannot get a reasonable (more than 65) amount of drones like you normally would have and get infestor tech in time. When I see this happening I think you just have to do roach ling purely, and get ridiculously high up in food by the time he shows up. I think this 7 gate immo attack is ridiculously good on cloud kingdom where everything is in a little choke and forcefields stop you from doing anything - try to engage in the middle of the map or at least far enough out that you can remake..... I die to this push a lot. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 06 2012 06:27 Timmer wrote: Are hydras a good unit in ZvT when mixed with ling/blings? I (bronze) was having success last night with the mix, starting out with very heavy ling/bling armys and later going more toward hydra heavy once I was fully tech'd. The games seemed to last a long time, but I won most of them like this. More or less no one has managed to use them effectively yet, despite many attempts. So I wouldn't recommend you to go for hydras, unless you feel like a sc2 theory investigator. If you had success in your games, it could be for many different reasons. Pure zerglings - banelings armies can be pretty efficient in Z v T if your opponent doesn't harass you too much. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 06 2012 07:37 JedSaje wrote: Im having some difficulty in ZvP where the toss contains with cannons and goes mass void. and i prepare for it cause when i see the contain i go roach and get an evo chamber for the voids and i spread my creep so cannons dont get any closer. Im having a lot of difficulty beating this. im in platinum aswell. thnx for the help contain you on one base? like with 3 pylons down the ramp and cannons to protect them? or some random cannon rush in your main? if it's a contain down the ramp, to be honest, you absolutely need to make something happen quick. Personnally, when I am contained in my main with 3 pylons, I just drone a lot, put down a macro hatch in my main, make roaches (like around 12) and all in with zerglings. If you make sure that you don't reveal all your roaches when breaking the wall (just show like 3 of them) it works quite well, at my low master level. if it's a cannon rush in your main, you just can't let it happen. So send drones and kill his pylon and cannons and probe quick. | ||
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the`postman
United States1643 Posts
On March 06 2012 16:59 Host- wrote: How do you hold off a stargate 4gate +1, with Vray and Zealots ect. Spines+Queens+Roaches, as long as you scout this with your ovie it should be the easiest of all the timing attacks to hold. | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 06 2012 08:17 frontstab wrote: against Terran, if my Drone and Overlord is unable to get in because of marrines around the edges of his base, and I don't even know if he has his 2nd gas, and he doesn't expand, how can I find out what he's doing? I lost to banshees even though I made both ling,bling spores and spines to prepare for any thing terran could throw but two spores wasnt eenough bcause the banshees just shot at things outside spore range replay if needed: http://replayfu.com/r/btNH9f I feel it's a bit strange that you can't see anything with your overlord, if you sac it - let's say - a bit after you have seen helions in front of your base. can't you see second gas? can't you see barracks? factories? starport? CC? add ons? units? the terran base is not that big!  you were killed by marines, but how many? 2 ? 4? more? all these are small or big hints of what's going on. in addition to overlord sac and drone early, i would suggest that you also scout with one ling a bit after helions are out. Having said that, if you don't scout anything, I would personnally throw down a spore in each mineral line (as these can be useful against drops later), plus make sure I have 3 queens. If banshees are coming, spam queens, always gather queens so that you can transfuse, and to avoid them being sniped. if your spores are not finished, or are at risk, don't hesitate to put 2 more. don't worry too much if you lost a couple of drones, it doesn't mean you are behind. Banshees may snipe things which are out of your spore zone (like buildings), but remember that if they are cloaked, they won't be cloaked forever... if they are not cloaked, you should be able to defend with queens . | ||
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Macpo
453 Posts
On March 06 2012 09:42 Aulisemia wrote: I've only recently made the switch to zerg and my play has a lot of holes in it. Overall I try to focus on heavy roach with good upgrades and add in infestors in the midgame. I played a ZvZ on Antiga Shipyard with the replay included below. I felt like the game was very even with tech, drone counts and expansions being very similar. I GG'd out of the game after my roach/ling attack failed but after watching the replay I think I was still in a fairly good position even after losing my whole army. My question is with the attack itself @ 14:15 - I'm still very new to zerg and honestly am at a loss as to why I lost the engagement. My army is 24 roaches with 1/1 upgrades, 30 lings (without speed, ugh) at 0/1 upgrades. I'm moving up a ramp into a well positioned roach army of 37 roaches that are at 0/0 upgrades and he has no spine crawlers or queens in the engagement. From my Terran and Protoss experience I feel like this is an engagement I should win 100% of the time because of the similar army value and better upgrades, but I get demolished. So, these are my main questions: 1) Is Roach/Ling an inferior composition to pure Roach armies? 1a) Should I focus on units instead of going for the quick 1/1 and 2/2 upgrades? 2) My positioning was pretty terrible, should I attempt to micro my lings around the side for a quicker surround? 3) Is the concave at the top of the ramp just something that I should not be attacking into, i.e. should I just cut in and attempt to kill his 3rd? http://replayfu.com/r/CGXn4c 1) roach ling is not necessarily inferior to pure roach. Especially in the beginning, it can be quite effective. The key thing is the +1 ranged attack upgrade for roaches. With this upgrade, roaches kill zerlings in 2 shots, instead of 3. Then zerglings become much less effective against roaches, and tend to disappear from the field of operations. 1a) I am not sure about what you mean . If you mean, focus on having higher tech units, then not necessarily. mass roaches pushes are a quite effective from midgame. and quick 1/1 2/2 upgrades are good (if by quick you mean starting upgrades when you have 2 saturated bases). in any case, going high tech too quick is risky: like having too many infestors and only a few roaches early can put you in a difficult position. and I am saying this for roach vs roach strategies, as muta strats are kind of a different mindset. 2) well I am not so convinced about your use of zerlings. As far as positioning is concerned, it really does matter in roach heavy battles. 3) unless you have a clear advantage, yes you should avoid that. If you feel you are just slightly ahead in armies, don't go in a position where he has a better concave, especially if it's in his base, as he will reinforce his army faster. Rather take an expand, drone a bit, and increase your advantage . Kill a third, if possible, sounds like a very good idea. But be careful not to be too aggressive and not to get trapped cause you absolutely wanted to do damage. Making 10 drones more is a very efficient way to actually hurt your opponent and often much safer! | ||
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