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I've been toying with a zvp idea, but not tested it yet. I'm posting it in this thread as a question as theory crafting doesn't warrant its own thread, but I still want some feedback.
The concept is to get fast lair and burrow for lings to be safe against early 6/7 gates, thus skipping early roach tech and getting super fast mutas without sacrificing (much) security or economy. With 4 hatches you should be able to drone hard and make reactive lings just as his core stops spinning/front gateway is transforming. Lings are great vs gateway units as long as they don't get force-fielded of, and with burrow you can hold them off until observers.
It's probably best on big maps with long rush distances where lings can use their mobility to surround and mutas can contain P in his base until AA if he goes for a later push.
Example build outline (pulling it out of my ass):
+ Show Spoiler +14 pool into early third, standard.
5:30 2 gas.
6:00 lair.
6:30 (@100 gas) ling speed
7:00 OL scout.
7:00-8:00 somewhere here you'll probably need a macro hatch for ling production.
Build forks depending on scouting information.
a) If there are signs of early gateway aggression:
7:20 (@100% lair) burrow (and maybe evo chambers?)
8:00 Infestation pit/hydra den/roach warren/upgrades?
8:20 - ling speed complete.
9:00 - burrow complete. Burrow a ling at his 3rd.
b) If no sign for early gateway aggression:
7:30 (@100% lair) Spire, more gasses.
8:20 - ling speed complete.
8:20 (@100% spire) mutas.
8:53 mutas spawn.
Deny/delay his 3rd, keep him in his base with defensive stalkers, take 10 gasses and tech to broods.
Weaknesses: An early gateway+observer timing or storm/archon should be the theoretical hard counter and I'm not sure how ling/early muta will fare against a +2 blink stalker timing. Dependant on scouting, vulnerable to un-scouted tech. Will need a transition if they manage to get their 3rd up (maybe baneling drops?).
Good vs: 6/7 gate, robo builds, voidrays, dt.
Versus later pushes the super early mutas should be able to keep them in their base until they have enough AA to defend both their push and their bases.
Soo... What have I missed, what can be improved?
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Um, you need to play games with it. Fast burrow is good except going Lair that early can leave you open to REALLY fast 6/7 gateway timings.
But yeah, play games and post reps.
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Can't stop mass marines with 3/3 upgrades. Kite banelings all day. Fungal? Can't get them all before the infestors die. It's great.
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On March 08 2012 09:05 VoirDire wrote:I've been toying with a zvp idea, but not tested it yet. I'm posting it in this thread as a question as theory crafting doesn't warrant its own thread, but I still want some feedback. The concept is to get fast lair and burrow for lings to be safe against early 6/7 gates, thus skipping early roach tech and getting super fast mutas without sacrificing (much) security or economy. With 4 hatches you should be able to drone hard and make reactive lings just as his core stops spinning/front gateway is transforming. Lings are great vs gateway units as long as they don't get force-fielded of, and with burrow you can hold them off until observers. It's probably best on big maps with long rush distances where lings can use their mobility to surround and mutas can contain P in his base until AA if he goes for a later push. Example build outline (pulling it out of my ass): + Show Spoiler +14 pool into early third, standard.
5:30 2 gas.
6:00 lair.
6:30 (@100 gas) ling speed
7:00 OL scout.
7:00-8:00 somewhere here you'll probably need a macro hatch for ling production.
Build forks depending on scouting information.
a) If there are signs of early gateway aggression:
7:20 (@100% lair) burrow (and maybe evo chambers?)
8:00 Infestation pit/hydra den/roach warren/upgrades?
8:20 - ling speed complete.
9:00 - burrow complete. Burrow a ling at his 3rd.
b) If no sign for early gateway aggression:
7:30 (@100% lair) Spire, more gasses.
8:20 - ling speed complete.
8:20 (@100% spire) mutas.
8:53 mutas spawn.
Deny/delay his 3rd, keep him in his base with defensive stalkers, take 10 gasses and tech to broods.
Weaknesses: An early gateway+observer timing or storm/archon should be the theoretical hard counter and I'm not sure how ling/early muta will fare against a +2 blink stalker timing. Dependant on scouting, vulnerable to un-scouted tech. Will need a transition if they manage to get their 3rd up (maybe baneling drops?). Good vs: 6/7 gate, robo builds, voidrays, dt. Versus later pushes the super early mutas should be able to keep them in their base until they have enough AA to defend both their push and their bases. Soo... What have I missed, what can be improved?
There are quite a few glaring problems with this build:
firstly the sentence "The concept is to get fast lair and burrow for lings to be safe against early 6/7 gates" makes no sense, burrow on zerglings will not help anything, sure you can burrow them when he forcefields, but your'e going to lose a significant amount in the process of burrowing/unborrowing. the presence of attack upgrades alone by protoss means any warp in of zealots would be so extremely cost efficient, you would need an absurd amount of zerglings, leaving your economy in shambles.
When you outline the build you do state that you would put down a roach warren/hydra den if necessary, but I assure you that 8:00 is far too late.
This is all talking about going straight up to a gateway allin, not to mention the various pressure builds: Void ray/zealot pressure, super fast +1 4gate pressure, +1 double gateway after nexus pressure, these are all extremely powerful builds that you WILL NOT be cost efficient against without roaches.
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On March 08 2012 10:33 Falcon-sw wrote:
Can't stop mass marines with 3/3 upgrades. Kite banelings all day. Fungal? Can't get them all before the infestors die. It's great.
unless you already have an advantage, you have to have creep spread for your first engagement at least.
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Does anyone know where I could find a guide to playing ling/infestor style ZvT? I tried to use the search function but I couldn't find anything very comprehensive. Also, how do any high level players in here feel about it vs. the usual ling/bane/muta style?
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On March 08 2012 11:38 Purple Haze wrote:
Does anyone know where I could find a guide to playing ling/infestor style ZvT? I tried to use the search function but I couldn't find anything very comprehensive. Also, how do any high level players in here feel about it vs. the usual ling/bane/muta style?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=193058
I feel it's OK to do at any level except the absolute tip top (there's a reason why you never see Korean zergs do it against T), but if you are trying to learn it coming from a muta/ling/bane style then you are going to lose a lot in the first few games. It's very weak against multiple drops if you are not good at spreading your units out manually, and if you get one bad engagement you simply lose the game because of the overall fragility of lings.
I still prefer mutas because of the lasting map control they give you, plus the ability to shut down drops. Feels so much more solid to me rather than the "select all lings, 1a, fungal a bunch" that comes with the infestor ling.
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Thanks for the link. I'm prepared for (and am currently experiencing) the losing a lot part, but I was losing before too so it's no great hardship, I've only been able to win ZvT with two base pushes for a long time so I'm willing to try something new. The drop defence is hard but I feel like terrans are so used to defending mutas by now that it's hard to do enough damage to justify the cost. Although part of that is probably just my muta micro.
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i never play muta ling bling in zvt and i m high master on eu.
i go 16 hatch 16p and on some maps 18 gas ( but just for speedling do defend mass helion openers on large entrances)
fast 3 or 4 queens, depends on your scouting (2gas, 1gas, fe) fast macro hatch, 2 evos (1/1 upgrades obv) before lair.
i take 4 gas at 40/50 supply and double expand when infestor lings are rdy. easy come, easy go.
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Do you ever build roaches with the infestor ling style, or just throw down a macro and wait til you can build enough lings to break out of a hellion contain?
Having played a few more games I think my engagements are still really bad and are costing me most games, but I'm finding that the play style is forcing me to get better at a lot of things I've managed to get to my current level by working around without ever actually fixing (army splitting, infestor control, drop defence in general), so it'll be worthwhile even if I eventually go back to mutas.
So, for those engagements, am I right in saying the key is to catch him unsieged and land at least your first round of fungals before your lings go in? I think my lings are arriving early and getting massacred before my infestors have done enough damage, at the moment...
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anyone know any Zergs that play ZvT similar to Leenock style ? looking for some replays
hatch first into 3 queen ...macro hatch and +1 carapace into lair/ muta
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On March 08 2012 13:08 Purple Haze wrote:
Thanks for the link. I'm prepared for (and am currently experiencing) the losing a lot part, but I was losing before too so it's no great hardship, I've only been able to win ZvT with two base pushes for a long time so I'm willing to try something new. The drop defence is hard but I feel like terrans are so used to defending mutas by now that it's hard to do enough damage to justify the cost. Although part of that is probably just my muta micro.
I feel the ling/infestor style requires better overall mechanics when you do it Stephano style (double-ups into infestors, hive into ultralisks). Some things to keep in mind:
1) Overlord placement is crucial to detect incoming drops, except if he goes overlord hunting with a viking (see #3)
2) Skipping the baneling nest means that you really need to be hitting as much of your injects as possible, you'll need a lot of lings to defend some things.
3) Building placement and sim-citying is even more important to keep hellions at bay early game and focus on droning.
4) You want at least 1 extra queen early on to help spread creep. The reason for this is that if they make a viking to go overlord hunting, you'll need to split your army up to defend against any possible drops. If he comes at you with a big push, you want your creep to be well spread to give you vision and some time to get into position. Also, the queens play a slightly larger role in being anti-air, since you won't have mutas.
5) Because you're relying on upgrades for an advantage until hive kicks in, you'll have to pay close attention to when the upgrades finish and start the next level asap.
6) I feel infestor micro is tougher than some pros make it look.
7) In the late game, you'll have a mobile force (more mobile than BL, at least) and to get the most out of it, you have to be very smart about army movement, engagements, and your overall decision making.
8) Ling runby's and backstabs are a big part of this style, so having good map awareness will help you in the same way it helps with muta harass, except now you can't just fly in - you need to run in and avoid his army.
I think it's ever so slightly more technical, even if it is less complex. But overall I don't think it's easier or tougher, but it does feel very different. It is, however, such a powerful style and in capable hands has a lot of small advantages over the usual ling/bling/muta style once you get the hang of it an learn to cope with the weaknesses. It's also becoming more popular, with top Koreans like Nestea, DongRaeGu and Coca putting their own spin on it.
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On March 08 2012 23:17 Foxy. wrote:
Do you ever build roaches with the infestor ling style, or just throw down a macro and wait til you can build enough lings to break out of a hellion contain?
Having played a few more games I think my engagements are still really bad and are costing me most games, but I'm finding that the play style is forcing me to get better at a lot of things I've managed to get to my current level by working around without ever actually fixing (army splitting, infestor control, drop defence in general), so it'll be worthwhile even if I eventually go back to mutas.
So, for those engagements, am I right in saying the key is to catch him unsieged and land at least your first round of fungals before your lings go in? I think my lings are arriving early and getting massacred before my infestors have done enough damage, at the moment...
If you're really gosu, throw down some infested terrans and gauge how many tanks there are by the amount of shots that hit the eggs. If it's only a few, keep beach-balling your way forwards and then have the lings run in. If there are too many and you don't feel confident, see if you can pull off a counter-attack/backstab. If it works you can catch him unsieging.
The optimal scenarios is where you engage him whilst he is still unsieged, yes, but once you hit hive and add in the ultras, this style is particularly good at head-on engagements and bull-rushing an entrenched Terran army.
Lastly, I don't ever build roaches in ZvT because I feel they are too slow and they don't add enough. But if you feel that they help you, add them in. Both Stephano and DongRaeGu have played this style making a good deal of roaches. I prefer the macro hatch into mass ling, since you get to upgrade quicker and you'll be able to make up to 50% more drones when you take your third. Personal preference mostly, but there are some scenarios in which the roaches might be necessary. I don't know.
Hope that helps>
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On March 09 2012 00:02 SupeR z wrote:
anyone know any Zergs that play ZvT similar to Leenock style ? looking for some replays
hatch first into 3 queen ...macro hatch and +1 carapace into lair/ muta
Go grab the MLG Providence replay pack, and you can get like 10+ replays of leenock himself doing it. That's how I sort of reverse-engineered the build.
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On March 09 2012 00:43 SeinGalton wrote:Show nested quote +On March 08 2012 23:17 Foxy. wrote:
Do you ever build roaches with the infestor ling style, or just throw down a macro and wait til you can build enough lings to break out of a hellion contain?
Having played a few more games I think my engagements are still really bad and are costing me most games, but I'm finding that the play style is forcing me to get better at a lot of things I've managed to get to my current level by working around without ever actually fixing (army splitting, infestor control, drop defence in general), so it'll be worthwhile even if I eventually go back to mutas.
So, for those engagements, am I right in saying the key is to catch him unsieged and land at least your first round of fungals before your lings go in? I think my lings are arriving early and getting massacred before my infestors have done enough damage, at the moment... If you're really gosu, throw down some infested terrans and gauge how many tanks there are by the amount of shots that hit the eggs. If it's only a few, keep beach-balling your way forwards and then have the lings run in. If there are too many and you don't feel confident, see if you can pull off a counter-attack/backstab. If it works you can catch him unsieging. The optimal scenarios is where you engage him whilst he is still unsieged, yes, but once you hit hive and add in the ultras, this style is particularly good at head-on engagements and bull-rushing an entrenched Terran army. Lastly, I don't ever build roaches in ZvT because I feel they are too slow and they don't add enough. But if you feel that they help you, add them in. Both Stephano and DongRaeGu have played this style making a good deal of roaches. I prefer the macro hatch into mass ling, since you get to upgrade quicker and you'll be able to make up to 50% more drones when you take your third. Personal preference mostly, but there are some scenarios in which the roaches might be necessary. I don't know. Hope that helps>
rather than gosu, it is almost a must if you do ling infestors. Blindly running into tanks are really dangerous in some maps.
To add my opinion on this style:
Honestly, this style is what got me to diamond, zvt being the strongest.
It punishes terran for ANY mis micro on their part, landing a money fungal is potentially game changing. They cannot be so cost efficient with their marines anymore because they cannot stutterstep.
With mutas, you have to put so much effort to make them worth while, and all the advantages you built up could be lost due to a few thor splash or not enough banelings hitting marines etc. But with infestors, you could stall the push with both fungal and counter attack.
You could use high ground and choke point to your advantage.
The transition to hive also feels better as well.
You don't have to split banelings to the marines, muta magic boxing, something that I sucked. all you need is to have enough lings, set some flanks, and test the siege tank numbers, then pop a few infested terran eggs and go fungal. And very often if you hit 2-2, the trade turns out to be very very even. You can afford to lose the lings and just have to save the infestors.
Not to mention somehow all terrans stopped using ghost after the nerf, even though EMP is still so important against infestor style. So you don't even need to spread out your infestors to be safe
The con for this build is that on some maps, tanks on high ground are seriously difficult to break.
Mass drops are really troublesome but you could just put spines and lings in each base to buy time for your army to get there.
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I'm comfortable with my builds for zvz and zvt but I'm kinda lost against protoss.
I'd like to do a third queen or more vs stargates plus roaches with burrow to fend off big gateway pushes. Is this viable and does anyone know a good bo for it?
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Thanks a lot for all the advice guys, it's been really helpful. I still need to work on engaging but the overall strategy is starting to feel really good, and I seem to be defending drops better than I ever did with mutas, maybe just because it's far less forgiving if you don't spot them in advance so I watch my minimap better ^^
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so I lost to only T last night... which leads me to my question. Airless ZvT... is it possible? I mean late game because sometimes I get so caught up in the battle that I just forget to morph idle corrupters into BLs and overall just lazy to do it. better to substitute for ultras or just keep going tier2? from courrpter build time+morph time is it more of less than ultra 55 second build time?
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On March 09 2012 00:46 HyperionDreamer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2012 00:02 SupeR z wrote:
anyone know any Zergs that play ZvT similar to Leenock style ? looking for some replays
hatch first into 3 queen ...macro hatch and +1 carapace into lair/ muta Go grab the MLG Providence replay pack, and you can get like 10+ replays of leenock himself doing it. That's how I sort of reverse-engineered the build.
thanks will check that out
anyone know anyone someone else that plays a similar style ?
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By the way guys, Stephano on ladder has been going roach/ling infestor straight into broods. Ultras are bad unless you are tech switching.
Please don't go Ultras.
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EPT
