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On February 29 2012 13:31 Belial88 wrote: The map is broken for ZvP-FFE for the reasons you specified. I just veto the map.
An interesting side note, TDA used to have the rocks removed at the GSL, but then they decided to add them. Weird huh? Maybe we just bitch too much, but it does awfully feel like we're restricted in the choices we can make on that map.
2 base muta is okay on that map, though. The choke means any mass gateway push can be held off with spines, and there's just so much air space that your mutas really become more effective than any other map. It really becomes a very good opening that isn't so cheesy as it usually is.
If the opponent opens stargate, just add corruptors. It's really not a big deal.
It just doesn't seem right to veto the best macro map in the entire pool just cause of the rocks... I guess I'll switch to using 2 base mutas in all of the close positions, cross pos I still think is playable doing 3 hatch early.
Also, darkforce, how do you engage gateway/immortal timings at the third on cloud kingdom? I've found myself in ssuperior army situations multiple times but unable to engage because of goddamned forcefields across my third hatchery.... Do I need 4-5 spines to prevent this?
Yes.
You need 4+ spines for almost ANY gateway oriented all in on Cloud Kingdom. The distance that your units have to travel from your main hatch to your third, and the location of the third with that ramp and narrow hall way means if you try to engage normally, you just die to FF. Gotta have spines to stall, and attack from both angles (on top of ramp and bottom). And even then it's still freaking hard to hold sentry immortal.
so darkforce thinks roachling>immortal push while blade doesnt agree. darkforce can you give some tips how to hold it? +1 armor or ranged? whats the optimal roach/ling ratio? and most importantly how should i engage? should i run close to their army (in melee range) with roaches before engaging to try to deal as much damage as possible despite forcefields or is it better to attack with usual roach range and back away as ff s are cast? (until all energy is drained) i rly cannot imagine to drain ~20 forcefields until i can attack without loosing too much of my army... especially not on maps with narrow ways leading to the 3rd.
a replay against an able protoss would be soooo awesome^^
and blade would you recommend a hydra+spine defense than? or infs or something else?
On March 01 2012 08:18 Werezerg wrote: ok back to my immortal push question.
so darkforce thinks roachling>immortal push while blade doesnt agree. darkforce can you give some tips how to hold it? +1 armor or ranged? whats the optimal roach/ling ratio? and most importantly how should i engage? should i run close to their army (in melee range) with roaches before engaging to try to deal as much damage as possible despite forcefields or is it better to attack with usual roach range and back away as ff s are cast? (until all energy is drained) i rly cannot imagine to drain ~20 forcefields until i can attack without loosing too much of my army... especially not on maps with narrow ways leading to the 3rd.
a replay against an able protoss would be soooo awesome^^
and blade would you recommend a hydra+spine defense than? or infs or something else?
While I can't speak for darkforce he did say vs 2 base pushes and i'm not sure if he includes immortal or just most because you can hold most 2 base all ins with roach/ling.
It's really up to how you like to play in terms of unit composition, I think infestors might be the better route, but I have success with roach/hydra to. To be honest though I am probably not going to take a super fast third and go 2 base ling/infestor vs toss on that korhal map because FF and the third base location is sooo easily abusable.
That push makes me rage so hard when I get that map because you don't need to cast that many FF's to make your army way way stronger .
On March 01 2012 08:18 Werezerg wrote: ok back to my immortal push question.
so darkforce thinks roachling>immortal push while blade doesnt agree. darkforce can you give some tips how to hold it? +1 armor or ranged? whats the optimal roach/ling ratio? and most importantly how should i engage? should i run close to their army (in melee range) with roaches before engaging to try to deal as much damage as possible despite forcefields or is it better to attack with usual roach range and back away as ff s are cast? (until all energy is drained) i rly cannot imagine to drain ~20 forcefields until i can attack without loosing too much of my army... especially not on maps with narrow ways leading to the 3rd.
a replay against an able protoss would be soooo awesome^^
and blade would you recommend a hydra+spine defense than? or infs or something else?
I'll give my 2 cents too...
As with any protoss push, you can't let him engage you at your third and abuse forcefields. You'll want to intercept him while he moves out, preferably somewhere in the middle where you have space to retreat.
I use ~20 lings and the rest in roaches. I find that any more than 20 lings and they only get in the way of each other. Zerglings are a great reinforcement unit though, when the unit count is lower and protoss has low energy on his sentries. Also, zerglings have a faster build time. I personally prefer to get roach burrow and burrowed movement vs gateway heavy pushes over hydras, but hydras are obviously better if he mixes in air. Baneling-drops also work if you have the apm for it (which I personally don't).
I like to attack with the roaches head on and then try to flank with the zergling. The sentries are often a little bit behind his main army and are an ideal target for the zerglings. Also try to snipe any forward pylons/probes and reinforcing immortals. If you feel you can hold the current attack with the roaches you can counter-attack with the lings to force him to get his next warp-in of units defensively.
To be honest i doubt that engage in the middle advice a bit. It would mean to attack with significantly less units, especially against pure 7 gate pushes it´s impossible i think. with roach ling against immortal push it´s maybe true, i dont know
Also burrowed roaches are probably rather weak against immortal push, because he can include observers easily. Burrowed movement could work, but I am really unsure...i would have to exchange the roach speed with the burrow movement upgrade.
The baneling drop could work, but i would have to research drop really fast to have it ready. I already thought about that, but i am not sure the timing is ok, i think i will try this out.
banelings drops take forever and cost a shitton of gas, I can't imagine being able to get that in time. It's my preferred way to play in ZvP, but recently I've been reconsidering it. You never really see pros use it, and the gas cost and tech time is comparable to hive.
Came across a not so fun game on the ladder were I did a 1base speedling +1 attack push hoping to break his ffe, I pulled back once he spammed pylons in and around his cannons, I thought by the number of cannons and zealots he was perhaps going void ray/carrier/pheonix, all he did was literally spam pheonix's, I felt like I was playing terran again with mass mutas. I got out hydras in preperation for voidrays but with his pheonix's he managed to kill off almost all of my overlords before I could get out a decent sized hydra army to fend him off, I went for a counter attack with lings as soon as he showed pehonix's but he just spammed cannons.
With the combination of losing overlords in one pheonix sweep, coupled with a lack of a way to effectivly kill cannons he simply out macrod me with mass bases.
Now my question is, if they go mass pheonix zealot and turtle-cannon, what unit should I be gunning for, how should I be protecting overlords? cheers in advance.
On March 01 2012 17:41 Belial88 wrote: banelings drops take forever and cost a shitton of gas, I can't imagine being able to get that in time. It's my preferred way to play in ZvP, but recently I've been reconsidering it. You never really see pros use it, and the gas cost and tech time is comparable to hive.
Well, you'll have to skip roaches to get bling drops and get 4 gas pretty early, but as you can research drop and speed at the same time it doesn't take longer than infestors for instance.
As far as lair timing goes: Burrow - 1m40s Roach speed (OR tunneling claws)- 1m50s. Hydra den + first batch of hydras - 1m53s. OL drops - 2m10s Infestation pit + pathogen glands + infestor - 2m10s Roach speed + tunneling claws - 3m40s
If you get 2 gas at 5:00. You'll have lair at ~8:40 (assuming ling speed and 1 upgrade first). But as I said, I don't play with baneling drops so maybe I shouldn't comment on them.
sentry immortal all-ins are most definately held by roach ling spine. even when they have 2 immortals, mostly roach is still the way to go. muta/infestor tech should be teched while holding the push though. never tried zenio's fast hydra though.
On March 01 2012 19:08 cabboose wrote: ... Now my question is, if they go mass pheonix zealot and turtle-cannon, what unit should I be gunning for, how should I be protecting overlords? cheers in advance.
You should expand, stack your ovies at your hatches and get queens + spores to defend. Take it to late game and take it from there.
On March 01 2012 17:40 Werezerg wrote: To be honest i doubt that engage in the middle advice a bit. It would mean to attack with significantly less units, especially against pure 7 gate pushes it´s impossible i think. with roach ling against immortal push it´s maybe true, i dont know
Also burrowed roaches are probably rather weak against immortal push, because he can include observers easily. Burrowed movement could work, but I am really unsure...i would have to exchange the roach speed with the burrow movement upgrade.
The baneling drop could work, but i would have to research drop really fast to have it ready. I already thought about that, but i am not sure the timing is ok, i think i will try this out.
Middle is ideal, but it's not doable with roaches vs super early pure gate pushes as they hit before roach speed (I use spines vs gateway pushes instead). But in case of most protoss pushes you'll have roach speed and you're able to poke and try to delay/bait forcefields in an open area.
The important thing I wanted to get across was that if he gets in firing range of your 3rd and he has sentries, it will most likely fall.
I still like burrow, even against immortal pushes. An observer still costs 75 gas and will delay the immortal push crucial seconds.
On March 01 2012 17:41 Belial88 wrote: banelings drops take forever and cost a shitton of gas, I can't imagine being able to get that in time. It's my preferred way to play in ZvP, but recently I've been reconsidering it. You never really see pros use it, and the gas cost and tech time is comparable to hive.
On March 01 2012 08:18 Werezerg wrote: ok back to my immortal push question.
so darkforce thinks roachling>immortal push while blade doesnt agree. darkforce can you give some tips how to hold it? +1 armor or ranged? whats the optimal roach/ling ratio? and most importantly how should i engage? should i run close to their army (in melee range) with roaches before engaging to try to deal as much damage as possible despite forcefields or is it better to attack with usual roach range and back away as ff s are cast? (until all energy is drained) i rly cannot imagine to drain ~20 forcefields until i can attack without loosing too much of my army... especially not on maps with narrow ways leading to the 3rd.
a replay against an able protoss would be soooo awesome^^
and blade would you recommend a hydra+spine defense than? or infs or something else?
Well I'm not as good as Darkforce nor Blade but I've never been able to hold off a two base immortal timing with roach ling. I think you either need roach/hydra or roach/infestor but it takes time to get enough infestors. Roach/Ling won't work as the lings are a waste of supply because of forcefields and mass roach just dies to immortals.
The most important thing though is positioning and engaging. You can't let him get to your third on most maps like Antiga. If he 's just below your third by your rocks then it's almost going to be impossible holding it. Also when you engage make sure ALL of your units are attacking and not just the front row because that's the main reason I lose my engagement where I'm just forcefielded out. There's not much you can do about it besides from burrow microing in the roaches if you have it, forcing forcefields prior to the engagement and superior positioning.
On March 01 2012 17:40 Werezerg wrote: To be honest i doubt that engage in the middle advice a bit. It would mean to attack with significantly less units, especially against pure 7 gate pushes it´s impossible i think. with roach ling against immortal push it´s maybe true, i dont know
Also burrowed roaches are probably rather weak against immortal push, because he can include observers easily. Burrowed movement could work, but I am really unsure...i would have to exchange the roach speed with the burrow movement upgrade.
The baneling drop could work, but i would have to research drop really fast to have it ready. I already thought about that, but i am not sure the timing is ok, i think i will try this out.
Middle is ideal, but it's not doable with roaches vs super early pure gate pushes as they hit before roach speed (I use spines vs gateway pushes instead). But in case of most protoss pushes you'll have roach speed and you're able to poke and try to delay/bait forcefields in an open area.
The important thing I wanted to get across was that if he gets in firing range of your 3rd and he has sentries, it will most likely fall.
I still like burrow, even against immortal pushes. An observer still costs 75 gas and will delay the immortal push crucial seconds.
Engaging in the middle really is ideal, many maps have a choke-y third or even nat (korhal and shattered come to mind) that will absolutely kill you if he gets in there with forcefields. In addition, if you engage at your nat or 3rd you run the risk of having your ramp FF'd and being sans half of your reinforcements. Engaging in the middle will also punish a protoss who hasn't made a habit of placing pylons at intervals along the way to your base. You can't really do it vs a 4gate (1 or 2 base) but you can and should vs a 7 or 8 gate or 7gate + immortal. In addition, engaging vs gate-only pushes in the middle makes burrow-move roaches so, so, so much better, as the protoss has to either go home when you burrow or face being surrounded by your reinforcements and the forces you burrowed behind him.
I prefer hydra to burrow-move vs immortal pushes (and gateway pushes in general) but I also am a lair-tech zerg, so I tend to get both before I go to hive. I have no idea if this is a good idea or not; it puts me down a few hydras or about 6 roaches, but it has a lot of utility throughout the whole game.
im sorry if this question has already been answerd but i just dont have the nerves to search right know.
can someone pls tell me, how i'm supposed to stop the protoss 6,7 or 8gate "all in"? i just cant do it and it seems like every protoss in platin league is doing it right now. what i know so far is that i should take a fast 3rd if i see protoss FE. go to about 60 drones and than build units. but well i dont know if i just lack the micro management or if roach, ling ist the wrong unit composition or w/e. but i simply cannot hold it off. and it just feels so frustrating to watch a replay and from protoss point of view, my base i just a super massiv black hole. but then he pushes and with some more or less decent FF he just stomps me.
thx for any kind of help (but pls dont tell me that i just suck. thats what i obviously know already)
im sorry if this question has already been answerd but i just dont have the nerves to search right know.
can someone pls tell me, how i'm supposed to stop the protoss 6,7 or 8gate "all in"? i just cant do it and it seems like every protoss in platin league is doing it right now. what i know so far is that i should take a fast 3rd if i see protoss FE. go to about 60 drones and than build units. but well i dont know if i just lack the micro management or if roach, ling ist the wrong unit composition or w/e. but i simply cannot hold it off. and it just feels so frustrating to watch a replay and from protoss point of view, my base i just a super massiv black hole. but then he pushes and with some more or less decent FF he just stomps me.
thx for any kind of help (but pls dont tell me that i just suck. thats what i obviously know already)
You should post replay, but for now I just tell you what was my problem back at that level, I started to prepare for attack too early, way I defend all 2 base attacks is I get roach warren, evo chamber and 4 gasses at 7 minute mark, with first 300 gas, get ranged + 1 attack, ling speed and lair. Dont get supply blocked, this is most important thing at this moment of game. Start massing roaches and lings around 8:45 try to keep constant injects and overlord production. Throw few spines just to give some help. Keep massing units and keep hitting your injects even during the attack. If you managed to get over 60 drones before the attack and you dont loose third or economy you can just defend constant waves of units with better economy. Keep one ling at his third base location. He most likely tries to take this after failed all in if he doesnt just quit. If you opponent backs off or you kill all his units go put some pressure on him with your army, take fourth base, get double evo upgrades take rest of your gas and start transitioning into infestors or mutas, your choice and just contain him on 2 bases and secure your victory by teching to infestor broodlord.
Right so terran goes for standard reactor hellion expand. But he goes for like eight hellions instead of stopping at four and just runs inside my base, what can I do to counter this? On maps like metalopolis even if I do get two spines to protect it they can just run up my ramp and fry all my drones for like a 800 mineral investment which isnt much considering it ALWAYS pays off. I have no idea on how to beat this retarded strat. NO. I wont go roaches it delays my mutas to the extent where he can take a free third and skip turrets for a long time meaning my mutas doesnt really do anything.
On March 01 2012 23:32 Olsson wrote: Right so terran goes for standard reactor hellion expand. But he goes for like eight hellions instead of stopping at four and just runs inside my base, what can I do to counter this? On maps like metalopolis even if I do get two spines to protect it they can just run up my ramp and fry all my drones for like a 800 mineral investment which isnt much considering it ALWAYS pays off. I have no idea on how to beat this retarded strat. NO. I wont go roaches it delays my mutas to the extent where he can take a free third and skip turrets for a long time meaning my mutas doesnt really do anything.
Just because you don't want to hear it doesn't mean it's not true - roaches are the clear way to not lose all your drones.
On March 01 2012 23:32 Olsson wrote: Right so terran goes for standard reactor hellion expand. But he goes for like eight hellions instead of stopping at four and just runs inside my base, what can I do to counter this? On maps like metalopolis even if I do get two spines to protect it they can just run up my ramp and fry all my drones for like a 800 mineral investment which isnt much considering it ALWAYS pays off. I have no idea on how to beat this retarded strat. NO. I wont go roaches it delays my mutas to the extent where he can take a free third and skip turrets for a long time meaning my mutas doesnt really do anything.
Um.
Fast mutas don't do much for you in current ZvT anyway. I've been seeing and having success with going heavy Ling/Bane --> 3-4 base muta. The initial 10 mutas or so have become more of a risk with the amount of timings made to expose the lack of banelings due to saving up for mutas, and 2 base muta is taken advantage of a lot by fast 3rd CC since you can't really kill micro'd hellions without Mutas or roaches.
Going Roaches (only 2, you only need more if he goes up to 8+ hellions) lets you take a third faster, and gives you the ability to punish 3rd CC with Roach/Ling pressure.
If a protoss is not going FFE and he stays at one base, it is safe for me staying on 2 bases till what minute mark? because i am losing at 1 base timing push because i am droning so much for a third base.
EPT
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