EPTAs a side note, do any of you guys ever do 2 base muta against ffe toss? Lately I go two-base muta out of desperation when toss kills my third with early gateway timing, and it really seems to work well.
The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 192
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
As a side note, do any of you guys ever do 2 base muta against ffe toss? Lately I go two-base muta out of desperation when toss kills my third with early gateway timing, and it really seems to work well. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On February 25 2012 18:46 KimJongChill wrote: Alright, so 5 min/7:30 min scout, and stagger unit production with drone production. I guess the hard part about the forge scouting is that they can literally be getting upgrades for anything, and that it could just as well be a standard gate-way all-in, +2 blink stalker, or just a toss who likes to get some early upgrades before expanding. But I think the biggest thing is that I tend to be way too greedy against ffe toss, I've been droning freely up to 8:30, but now with the popularity of 4 gate timings I think I really need to start producing a few at 7:30 and then producing units+drones until I get a better indication of what toss is going. As a side note, do any of you guys ever do 2 base muta against ffe toss? Lately I go two-base muta out of desperation when toss kills my third with early gateway timing, and it really seems to work well. The thing is, you have to understand Toss IS hurting his economy with that early upgrade. A 100/100 upgrade means two less probes earlier on, and depending on the amount of chronos spend on the upgrade, less chronos on probes. You also have to get REALLY good understanding of gas distribution. I'm not asking you to be doing math in game like some people do (calculating when they took their gas and how much gas they must have after X minutes blah blah sorry I'm not a math major), but if you see two gas in main, that HAS to be going somewhere. Same with early 3rd/4th gas. For example, I played against a semi pro player (RGNFuture I believe) in one of MLG's beta tournaments, and he went DTs out of FFE. I knew exactly what he was doing, but out of nerves I thought I had made an evo chamber but something had blocked my drone making it momentarily, and it never made it, but my thought process leading up to it went like so: - Okay, FFE vs 3 hatch before Lair. - Check forge at 5 min, no upgrade. - Check forge at 6 min, no upgrade. - Check forge at 6:30, STILL NO upgrade? Where is gas going? SG? DTS? Time to sac OL. - He's killing my OL with a fast stalker, and just starting upgrade at 7 min? Meaning no gateway timing with sentries, and Stalker, late forge upgrade, and so much gas? MUST be VRs or DTs. So I went to start spores only to find out my evo was never made, and DTs killed me about 30 seconds later. I was pissed at myself, but I knew I had made the reads right so it was okay. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On February 25 2012 17:49 KimJongChill wrote: Hey guys, how are you holding the really fast (around 8min) 4 gate +1 zealot push off of an ffe? Are there any good reads? Sometimes they go void-rays with it and it gets confusing because they grab natural gas and I end up overdroning and simply dying. I like to throw down a warren around 6:30, so should I just be blindly grabbing a few roaches once the warren pops? The earliest you'll need to make a warren is about 7:15, I generally make it around 7:30 after grabbing dual gas at 6:30. Since the zealot/void timings move out around 8:15 or so, you'll be popping roaches out around the exact time that the zealots will be showing up. I also make an evo chamber at the exact same time as the warren, which is something I grabbed from watching Nestea's ZvP. Try that. | ||
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ixi.genocide
United States981 Posts
On February 25 2012 19:53 Flonomenalz wrote: The thing is, you have to understand Toss IS hurting his economy with that early upgrade. A 100/100 upgrade means two less probes earlier on, and depending on the amount of chronos spend on the upgrade, less chronos on probes. You also have to get REALLY good understanding of gas distribution. I'm not asking you to be doing math in game like some people do (calculating when they took their gas and how much gas they must have after X minutes blah blah sorry I'm not a math major), but if you see two gas in main, that HAS to be going somewhere. Same with early 3rd/4th gas. The thing is, you have to understand Toss IS hurting his economy with that early upgrade. A 100/100 upgrade means two less probes earlier on, and depending on the amount of chronos spend on the upgrade, less chronos on probes. No it doesn't, Both protoss and Terran should have constant worker production, he does not have to sacrafice a probe to get that upgrade and should definitely not sac eco to do so. You could say that he has to sacrafice 100 gas which is a big deal, but it is easily worth it. A Zerg has to literally sacrafice a drone to get an early +1, protoss just needs to build it when he has the excess minerals (which is not a problem.) The chrono I can understand, That is effectively -1 probe for every chrono (20/24 secs). You also have to get REALLY good understanding of gas distribution. I'm not asking you to be doing math in game like some people do (calculating when they took their gas and how much gas they must have after X minutes blah blah sorry I'm not a math major), but if you see two gas in main, that HAS to be going somewhere. Same with early 3rd/4th gas. If you can get a scout on their natural gases it will tell you a lot about what they are doing, if they only get the main ones it is a stalker 7 gate type play, if they get 3 it is more likely to be blink or higher sentry count, if it is 4 then you are looking at 5 gate robo, dt's and VR. To be specific you gather about 100g per minute for each geyser and they spend 250 on 2 ups, 100 on twilight counsel, get like 4 sentries and then the rest goes into stalkers or odd tech. | ||
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sick_transit
United States195 Posts
Is there any consensus at high levels on the right approach? I'd like to know what the right approach is and work on it even if it's hard. Infestors seem like the right answer to me but I don't know. My infestor control is terrible by the way. The thing that has worked for me has been to spore up my bases and then stash a roach army out on the map to counter when his mutas move out. But this seems gimmicky. Many thanks. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On February 26 2012 00:34 ixi.genocide wrote: + Show Spoiler + On February 25 2012 19:53 Flonomenalz wrote: The thing is, you have to understand Toss IS hurting his economy with that early upgrade. A 100/100 upgrade means two less probes earlier on, and depending on the amount of chronos spend on the upgrade, less chronos on probes. You also have to get REALLY good understanding of gas distribution. I'm not asking you to be doing math in game like some people do (calculating when they took their gas and how much gas they must have after X minutes blah blah sorry I'm not a math major), but if you see two gas in main, that HAS to be going somewhere. Same with early 3rd/4th gas. The thing is, you have to understand Toss IS hurting his economy with that early upgrade. A 100/100 upgrade means two less probes earlier on, and depending on the amount of chronos spend on the upgrade, less chronos on probes. No it doesn't, Both protoss and Terran should have constant worker production, he does not have to sacrafice a probe to get that upgrade and should definitely not sac eco to do so. You could say that he has to sacrafice 100 gas which is a big deal, but it is easily worth it. A Zerg has to literally sacrafice a drone to get an early +1, protoss just needs to build it when he has the excess minerals (which is not a problem.) The chrono I can understand, That is effectively -1 probe for every chrono (20/24 secs). You also have to get REALLY good understanding of gas distribution. I'm not asking you to be doing math in game like some people do (calculating when they took their gas and how much gas they must have after X minutes blah blah sorry I'm not a math major), but if you see two gas in main, that HAS to be going somewhere. Same with early 3rd/4th gas. If you can get a scout on their natural gases it will tell you a lot about what they are doing, if they only get the main ones it is a stalker 7 gate type play, if they get 3 it is more likely to be blink or higher sentry count, if it is 4 then you are looking at 5 gate robo, dt's and VR. To be specific you gather about 100g per minute for each geyser and they spend 250 on 2 ups, 100 on twilight counsel, get like 4 sentries and then the rest goes into stalkers or odd tech. Yeah, the guy who said that toss hurts his economy by getting early +1 is just wrong. He SPENDS 100 gas on it, and since it makes zealots almost 33% more efficient against lings, it's easily worth that. I find the best indicator of Protoss' tech path is how early he takes the gas at his natural. There are a lot of maps where you can get an overlord to look over his natural and see when he takes them - if he's staying on just the gas in his main then it's some kind of 6-8 gate, if he takes the gas at his natural by 5:30 or 6:00 then you are probably going to see robo units or void rays out really fast. On February 26 2012 01:18 sick_transit wrote: I've been struggling lately against "mass" mutas in zvz (plat league). I have read strat forum threads and the advice is all over the place on the right response. I've seen infestors, hydras, infestor/hydra, roach/infestor/hydra, even corruptors all recommended. Is there any consensus at high levels on the right approach? I'd like to know what the right approach is and work on it even if it's hard. Infestors seem like the right answer to me but I don't know. My infestor control is terrible by the way. The thing that has worked for me has been to spore up my bases and then stash a roach army out on the map to counter when his mutas move out. But this seems gimmicky. Many thanks. I think mass mass mutas in zvz is incredibly weak and should pretty much always lose, since he's sacrificing pretty much all of his standing army strength. The "good" way to go mutas is to use them as a mid-game tech transition, establish your third base faster than him, and then play a "standard" zvz with roach/infestor and eventually hive tech from there. To play against this kind of muta play, I like to go fast infestor tech while making 6-8 extra queens, which allows me to take my third base only marginally slower than the muta player (say his hatchery finishes while yours is about half done in my experience doing this style). The queens are fantastic against a reasonable number of mutas because of transfuses, and your first infestors can fungal to keep his mutas in place while your queens wail on them. If you do the math on 8 queens, fully maxed on 200 energy, that's 4 transfuses/queen, and 125 hp/transfuse = 500 extra effective hp per queen*8 queens = 4000 extra effective hp for your late game standing army. Considering a roach has 145 hp, that means you can save 27 roaches or hydras from dying assuming your transfusions are perfect. That's a huge boost to the strength of your army, and I do mean HUGE. If at any point you see that he's going MASS mutas, then you will need hydras since you can't just rely on infestor queen to defend your expansions. Get upgrades, max out on 3 bases, and go win, since his army can never really engage yours without dying to your beefy roach/hydra mix. Make sure you keep an overseer with your army since a lot of mass muta players go for burrowed banelings to blow up your hydras. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
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GoldenDarkness
19 Posts
Your 2 base Muta play sounds like you have excessive gas when the toss hits [this should be invested into something probably upgrades or infestors]. Since 3 bases supports continous Muta play +upgrades where as two base can either support muta/ling or infestor or hydra roach but never more than one. The problem with a two base muta vs a FFE toss is the problem that it's gimmicky since it relies on the toss build. Close by air maps is definetly something viable or those extremely large maps so they can't just run stalkers around. Since you can harass/escape and expand. @sick_transit The thing is at high level, you have to understand people generally have amazing macro. This translate to having a larger army and puts them strongly skewed to a strategy that works amazingly well base on their opening. [Which is why there are so many suggestions] For example, a player going roach hydra generally means they are defensive early game and does a roach pressure at around 8-9min[lair/speed done] which will delay the muta production of the opponent, if they delayed the muta then the roach will hit hard since muta takes forever to kill roaches. Alternatively an infestor play means player will have a large supply of mineral to work with and that leads to spores/lings/queens. So early game pressure is viable in just doing ling run by agaisnt a mutaing player. When people suggest Infestor they usually have impecable micro and they just have a ton of stuff to hold it off. Like 2/2 Hydras. However what I will say is that Corruptors is probably the least optimal choice they are too slow and the muta will just bounce between your bases. Personally my favourite way is to just suicide OV at 9min and build spores/infestor accordingly. Get some banelings so you're ready for the ling mob that follows the muta, and just slowly build roach/infestor. | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
2. What maps should I veto? There are so many shit maps for zerg. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On February 26 2012 05:43 Olsson wrote: 1. What should I do on Tal'Darim vs Protoss? Two base muta is shit and is a gamble. 2. What maps should I veto? There are so many shit maps for zerg. 1. I feel you. They need to get rid of those rocks at the third base, it almost makes the map veto-worthy since protoss can FFE and all of the third base locations are absurdly far away. I've been actually just putting my hatchery beside the rocks and trying to break the rocks with my first 3 lings, that's how difficult it is to defend the far away expansions. Not saying it's impossible, but those 4 gate zealot+void timings against the third base are almost a guaranteed kill on the hatchery. IMO it's kind of absurd that the only way to stay equal economically with ffe protoss is to take a base that's almost impossible to defend from an ezpz to execute timing attack. 2. I don't veto any maps other than shattered temple since that map is retarded for zerg (rocks anyone?) but a lot of zergs veto stuff like korhal compound (tanks hit your third from the highground and you can't do shit about it). | ||
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Hulkoff
Sweden51 Posts
How do I handle this scenario in the best way possible? | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
Because I always play hatch first against 14/14, I'm used to playing against mutas with a lead, so this is the basics of how to easily win: -Get 3 bases + a macro hatch, saturate, 1 spore at each base Yea, but what if it's like super fast lair? Like 25-30 supply lair? Do you just take a 30 supply third??? Thanks flo. Very helpful! | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
It's 2 2 part questions... 1. If someone goes 40-50 supply 'normal' Lair 2 base muta, how do you respond? Do you think going mutas yourself on better econ (go fast third) is a good response? And what if you can't go mutas (you made so many roaches, you ran off only 1 gas for so long, or maybe you just don't think mutas are the best response, whatever, let's just say you don't go mutas for one reason or another), what do you do? 2. If someone goes 20-30 supply super fast lair 2 base muta, how do you respond? Do you think going mutas yourself on better econ (ie 40-50 supply 2 base muta) is a good response? And what if you can't go mutas (again, because maybe the course of the early game went in a way that you can't or would rather not go mutas, maybe you scouted too late, maybe you took your gas too late, maybe you spent all the gas you did get on a ton of roaches), what do you do? In both answers, please describe in detail, the order of your tech (ie hydras then infestors, hydras on 2 base then infestors once third is set up, use mass spores on 3 base then grab all gas go for infestors, you go for a hatch tech roach/ling all-in, or maybe 2 base speedroach all-in by going fast, or late, lair), and maybe by supply counts or drone counts/targets. - How you drone up - Do you take a third, when, and how you set up to take it - When do you get lair - When do you get the tech you want, and in what order - What 'goal' are you aiming for, or more specifically, what composition? - What's your plan - to allin, or maybe go for a macro game by doing X. - Any pressure you try to do. Thanks. I just don't really see what composition would beat 2 base muta.. hence why I always go muta myself to 'counter' it (with success) but fail so hard when I'm maybe caught off guard or made a ton of roaches and so end up with way less gas despite superior econ and thus lose the muta battle. Basically if you take super late gas and made a ton of roaches, it's hard to go mutas because you really don't have much gas to immediately beat his force. If you know his exact plan for mutas, then yea, just going later lair muta yourself will win, but sometimes these people just go lair so fast, sometimes even on just 2 gas, and I don't realize it's mutas until too late. Cute game though ^^ | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On February 26 2012 11:57 Belial88 wrote: So here's my question, to be more straightforward, in regards to 2 base muta play. Now I personally like to counter fast mutas, by going later mutas, but sometimes that's not possible (ie made so many roaches at start, didn't get gas until too late, didn't notice lair quick enough, don't know if he just started lair or it's finishing, which means if I make it too soon my drone count isn't much higher than his and if it's too late than well the mutas might be too late and I lose). It's 2 2 part questions... 1. If someone goes 40-50 supply 'normal' Lair 2 base muta, how do you respond? Do you think going mutas yourself on better econ (go fast third) is a good response? And what if you can't go mutas (you made so many roaches, you ran off only 1 gas for so long, or maybe you just don't think mutas are the best response, whatever, let's just say you don't go mutas for one reason or another), what do you do? 2. If someone goes 20-30 supply super fast lair 2 base muta, how do you respond? Do you think going mutas yourself on better econ (ie 40-50 supply 2 base muta) is a good response? And what if you can't go mutas (again, because maybe the course of the early game went in a way that you can't or would rather not go mutas, maybe you scouted too late, maybe you took your gas too late, maybe you spent all the gas you did get on a ton of roaches), what do you do? In both answers, please describe in detail, the order of your tech (ie hydras then infestors, hydras on 2 base then infestors once third is set up, use mass spores on 3 base then grab all gas go for infestors, you go for a hatch tech roach/ling all-in, or maybe 2 base speedroach all-in by going fast, or late, lair), and maybe by supply counts or drone counts/targets. - How you drone up - Do you take a third, when, and how you set up to take it - When do you get lair - When do you get the tech you want, and in what order - What 'goal' are you aiming for, or more specifically, what composition? - What's your plan - to allin, or maybe go for a macro game by doing X. - Any pressure you try to do. Thanks. I just don't really see what composition would beat 2 base muta.. hence why I always go muta myself to 'counter' it (with success) but fail so hard when I'm maybe caught off guard or made a ton of roaches and so end up with way less gas despite superior econ and thus lose the muta battle. Basically if you take super late gas and made a ton of roaches, it's hard to go mutas because you really don't have much gas to immediately beat his force. If you know his exact plan for mutas, then yea, just going later lair muta yourself will win, but sometimes these people just go lair so fast, sometimes even on just 2 gas, and I don't realize it's mutas until too late. So basically, the goal of him going fast muta is to try to harass you and deny your third while he takes his.... Any kind of mass muta is super bad imo cause of how weak of a standing army he will have. 1/2. In both cases I go for infestors as fast as possible, with probably 4-8 queens which I'm making from my 2 hatcheries. While his muta count is low, these queens are super super good, and they can even be pretty solid when the muta count gets above 10 because of fungal growth/transfuse. Here's the order of my tech, and I'll give you 2 replays of me doing it so you can look at it and extract whatever timings you want. Either 14/14 or hatchery first, defend and survive. Then go roach warren -> lair -> roach speed/+1 ground (dual evos sometimes works here, but you can skip one for faster infestor depending on his muta timing) -> infestation pit and take your third, using a few roaches and your 6-8 queens to defend it. Generally you'll get it a bit slower than him, but in the same ballpark. When your first infestors hatch you are basically immune to any muta harass unless he's going MASS MASS muta, and then you'll need to get hydras to not lose your third base (this needs to be scouted by looking at his roach count and/or where he is spending his gas). My goal is 3/3 roach/infestor/queen/broodlord, and if you read my post above this one (same page), you see how much effective hp the queens give your army in the late game. My plan is never allin, ever, just play a standard macro game and outplay him. I don't do any pressure currently (or any timed pressure), but maybe I could incorporate some burrowed infestor shenanigans if I refine this build. Example Replay (keep in mind I'm high diamond, so take however much of my advice you will): http://drop.sc/119610 In this replay I play fairly well except for a few early game macro failures (800+ minerals at two points D= D=) and when I first push out to try to trade armies, I fuck up and don't fungal his banelings, so I lose all my infestors but manage to trade for his mutas and most of his roaches. Oh, and I overdroned a bit, which is fairly common for me. After he transitions out of mutas there's not much to learn from the replay, it's a fairly standard zvz, but the early queens that I always make vs mutas is what really smooths out the process of acquiring your third base IMO. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
2 quick questions: 1. Do you ever actually need to get broodlords? That seems unnecessary. I just about never get hive in ZvZ (i prefer nydus when it's maxed roach vs roach, and I generally find being aggressive with ling/bane/infestor/muta is better than going hive, I think only once or twice was the game always so close the entire game that it went to ultra vs ultra). Maybe that's a preferential thing, whatever, but.. you know, if the opponent is staying on muta tech (ie ling/bane/muta/infestor/ultra, obviously if he goes back into roach play then I see the merit of bl), you really think Bl are eventually necessary? I get ultras can be a problem, but he can't use ultras without muta support, which you should be owning with your infestors. 2. So can you be a bit specific about how you handle 2 base muta in infestor/lair timing? Like, do you get the lair the second you get a whif he's going lair (this would imply that you think going infestor vs his muta tech is the best answer, as opposed to going mutas on better econ like I always preach), or do you drone up a bit, and get a later lair, maybe even third before lair, and try to sort of sneak an econ lead first? I get that in general, once about 8 infestors are out, mutas are nullified. But it doesn't work so well if you are 2 base infestor vs 3 base muta, or if you just die before your infestors get out. The problem here is that these 20-30 lairs are so fast that I feel lair tech in general should be avoided in favor of more econ, but I just can't get a third without mutas myself (which requires me not making roaches and getting wind of his plan quickly basically) and any roach timing seems to be deflected by the mass of mutas he has at that point, and generally I've droned to 40 and oops, too late to do any roach/ling all-in. edit: just watched replay. Thanks, very useful, but you both got lair at same time. I definitely learned something, but was wondering what happens in the case of an opponent going lair super fast - do you lair at the same time? What happens if you don't know he went lair super fast (maybe he's going lair so early, that he only takes 2 gas, so you can't tell with scout that he's going muta yet until his lair is almost done)? Cute game though ^^ | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
On February 26 2012 12:56 Belial88 wrote: ^ Thanks, that's very helpful. Will watch. 2 quick questions: 1. Do you ever actually need to get broodlords? That seems unnecessary. I just about never get hive in ZvZ (i prefer nydus when it's maxed roach vs roach, and I generally find being aggressive with ling/bane/infestor/muta is better than going hive, I think only once or twice was the game always so close the entire game that it went to ultra vs ultra). Maybe that's a preferential thing, whatever, but.. you know, if the opponent is staying on muta tech (ie ling/bane/muta/infestor/ultra, obviously if he goes back into roach play then I see the merit of bl), you really think Bl are eventually necessary? I get ultras can be a problem, but he can't use ultras without muta support, which you should be owning with your infestors. I generally always get broodlords, unless he's going for an asston of mutas in which case I'll keep the roach/corruptor/infestor. Also since most muta players eventually have to do a roach transition or they'll just die, I like the broods then. Do you think ultras are good zvz? Cause every time I've faced them I just focus them down really hard with roaches and my broodlings provide a nice little wall to hide roach/infestor behind. 2. So can you be a bit specific about how you handle 2 base muta in infestor/lair timing? Like, do you get the lair the second you get a whif he's going lair (this would imply that you think going infestor vs his muta tech is the best answer, as opposed to going mutas on better econ like I always preach), or do you drone up a bit, and get a later lair, maybe even third before lair, and try to sort of sneak an econ lead first? I don't feel like it's necessary to make an asston of drones if he's going to make mutas, since I know by definition that he's going to finish his third faster than I can, and all of those drones are going to be over-saturating my main/natural. I don't immediately go up to infestor as soon as I see him going lair, I'll generally take my lair as I'm getting my second gas, and take all four gases once the lair is about half done. I tend to think of things in terms of gas timings since food counts are always varying based on what has happened in the early game. Since the whole plan of going muta is to harass and get an economic lead with your third/fourth bases, I always struggled with how to take the third at a reasonable time until I watched dimaga do a sick roach/hydra/queen allin off 2 hatches and just roll over vibe going mutas. Then I kind of had the mental "lightbulb" of going a bunch of queens to defend your third hatchery from muta ling pressure, which allows you to get into a macro game where your standing army is way stronger than his (you'll be ahead on roach count, infestor count, and roach upgrades since he's spending lots of gas on mutas, plus you have lots and lots of transfuses). I think this is the best way, kind of like protoss does against zerg, deflect muta harass with upgraded blink stalkers and eventually gets this massive huge scary badass army. I get that in general, once about 8 infestors are out, mutas are nullified. But it doesn't work so well if you are 2 base infestor vs 3 base muta, or if you just die before your infestors get out. The problem here is that these 20-30 lairs are so fast that I feel lair tech in general should be avoided in favor of more econ, but I just can't get a third without mutas myself (which requires me not making roaches and getting wind of his plan quickly basically) and any roach timing seems to be deflected by the mass of mutas he has at that point, and generally I've droned to 40 and oops, too late to do any roach/ling all-in. edit: just watched replay. Thanks, very useful, but you both got lair at same time. I definitely learned something, but was wondering what happens in the case of an opponent going lair super fast - do you lair at the same time? What happens if you don't know he went lair super fast (maybe he's going lair so early, that he only takes 2 gas, so you can't tell with scout that he's going muta yet until his lair is almost done)? Cute game though ^^ I've rarely played against any of these super fast lair timings so I don't have a replay of it, but if you can scout him doing this it almost implies mutas since there's not really any other lair tech that's affordable and useful that fast (except maybe roach speed). Then you can just drone up your 2 bases, make the 6-8 queens as you're doing it, and his muta counts is going to be low enough that your queens can easily deflect his harass, and as they say in chess clubs, the game continues from there. thanks for the compliment on the game, i've got a long way to go before i get back into masters, my zerg is pretty bad compared to my terran.  | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I generally always get broodlords, unless he's going for an asston of mutas in which case I'll keep the roach/corruptor/infestor. Also since most muta players eventually have to do a roach transition or they'll just die, I like the broods then. Do you think ultras are good zvz? Cause every time I've faced them I just focus them down really hard with roaches and my broodlings provide a nice little wall to hide roach/infestor behind. Ultras are only good if they have a ton of mutas behind it (ie the original 20+). Sometimes ultra/infestor is okay. The issue is that ultra/muta will suffer against basic roach/infestor, and ultra/infestor isn't too great against mass roach or even roach/infestor sometimes. Generally if I'm going ling/bane/muta against a roach player, I use mass ling/bane/muta. What usually happens is I get my 3 bases vs their late 2 (they have to delay third until infestors, so they're third is late and army is small), and then with a quick 200/200 on 3 bases, I just get hyper-aggressive and kill them. Maxed out 200/200 ling/bane/muta will beat any 2 base roach/hydra/infestor if you engage in the open with your units spread. The key is having the stronger econ, so if they go infestors, you just have so many lings and they don't have enough roaches, and if they go hydras, you have banes, and if they go pure roach, your mutas should be good for that. But I rarely go mutas against roaches anymore, because I prefer to play it greedier and go 3 base roach instead of 2 base muta vs roach play, and if the opponent is going 2 base infestor, I usually opt to go 3 base roach. I basically 'counter' infestors by going 3 bases, and I may even cancel the spire if I see they are going infestors (if I don't, it's whatever). My point is that if they are going 2 base infestor, I grab a third because they are teching so hard, and then quickly mass roaches on a superior econ. I guess you could say infestors are horribly cost inefficient compared to roaches, but extremely supply efficient, meaning if they go 2 base roach/infestor vs my 3 base roach, I'll have 200/200 while they are at like 110 supply and I just overwhelm them. I do think 2 base muta > 2 base infestor if played right, just barely, but I think 3 base pure roach is even better. Basically my goal is go third before lair in ZvZ, but if I'm forced to lair quicker (like they do lots of roaches on hatch tech) than I'll use speedroaches to secure my third. I'd prefer a faster third to mutas, even though imo mutas are the superior unit composition. There is that rare game once in a while though, where we both go third before lair, and they drone hard instead of make roaches. In which case, I'll go mutas if it's a larger map, and beat their roaches with the mutas and deal with the infestors with mass ling and max out quicker, since both of us basically make no units until 70 supply. But yea, ultra/infestor/muta is great against roach play, it's just that I find ling/bane/muta being hyper aggressive is much better than going for ultras, against roach/infestor play. So yea, they are amazing, but require muta support, and generally the game doesn't go that way. I don't feel like it's necessary to make an asston of drones if he's going to make mutas, since I know by definition that he's going to finish his third faster than I can, and all of those drones are going to be over-saturating my main/natural. I don't immediately go up to infestor as soon as I see him going lair, I'll generally take my lair as I'm getting my second gas, and take all four gases once the lair is about half done. I tend to think of things in terms of gas timings since food counts are always varying based on what has happened in the early game. But I mean, like what if they go like 25 supply lair (or maybe like 25 drone lair, to be more specific, since such games often involve early game aggression)? You are still only at 30ish drones, you still need a lot more to saturate 2 base. I guess the time you get your 2nd+ gas is like around when you have 35 drones and about 40 supply. Like, how do you sync your lair timing, to theirs? Is it relative at all? Or do you chug away at Make-Lair-At-40ish-Drones? If you see he goes lair on 25 drones, and your like at 30-35 supply, ie he went super fast lair, do you go for lair relative to his lair? Or do you make sure to get your good, comfortable 40ish drones before making lair? Then you can just drone up your 2 bases, make the 6-8 queens as you're doing it, and his muta counts is going to be low enough that your queens can easily deflect his harass, and as they say in chess clubs, the game continues from there. Ah okay, so you just chug along, regardless of his lair or muta timing, and just respond to however fast his mutas were by making queens appropriately (ie super fast lair, make queens right away, later lair, queens later). thanks for the compliment on the game, i've got a long way to go before i get back into masters, my zerg is pretty bad compared to my terran. I don't know if compliment is the right word lol. I'm not here to critisize, I'm here to learn, and you have something to offer me. I could really rip a new one into this game despite deferring a lack of knowledge on this muta thing (you both took comfortable, 40+ supply lairs, at the exact same time, not quite the scenario I talk about where someone goes lair at like 25-30 supply way before you would even consider lair normaly), as there were a lot of goofy things, but hey, we all know we aren't perfect. | ||
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HyperionDreamer
Canada1528 Posts
What you said about me chugging along, regardless of his lair timing, and making queens appropriately is quite correct. If you want to play a few games and mess around with this style, trying lair timings and aggressive/passive responses, I'd be more than up for that. (And yeah, you could teach me more than a few things about properly playing zerg in masters, so yeah maybe compliment is not the right word. haha) Interesting what you say about ultras with infestors and mutas, I might give that a run in a few games tomorrow, but it seems so ridiculously gas intensive at face value that you would have to be mining 10+ geysers to do it. | ||
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Thent
United States35 Posts
1) What gas timings should I be looking for to narrow down the list of builds that a Protoss player may be doing after a Forge fast expand (assuming that they haven't pressured up to this point)? Which FFE builds involve taking less than 4 gasses? 2) What exactly, after going 15 hatch vs a 14 pool 14 hatch, should I do once my pool & hatch finish? How many Zerglings should I make right off the bat for scouting & defense (assuming that I transition into a 2-Drones-on-gas defensive Baneling build)? Also, are there maps wherein I should delay my spine for a bit (because of enemy Zerglings being able to reach my base & attack the spine before I can get my own lings out)? 3) What is the standard time to take a 3rd base vs a Terran who plays standardly himself, going Hellions into 2 base Marine/Tank? Thanks in advance. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On February 26 2012 13:55 HyperionDreamer wrote: ^^ I have not practiced this style much at all in a very competitive setting, where the timings are all mapped out by playing hundreds of games the same way, and it's very clear that you're a much better zerg player than I am (you're masters right?). I've simply had a huge amount of success with it against high diamond/low master players, so in reality this style might be hella bad against good players like yourself if you sat down and tried to dissect it. What you said about me chugging along, regardless of his lair timing, and making queens appropriately is quite correct. If you want to play a few games and mess around with this style, trying lair timings and aggressive/passive responses, I'd be more than up for that. (And yeah, you could teach me more than a few things about properly playing zerg in masters, so yeah maybe compliment is not the right word. haha) Interesting what you say about ultras with infestors and mutas, I might give that a run in a few games tomorrow, but it seems so ridiculously gas intensive at face value that you would have to be mining 10+ geysers to do it. Yea. Basically the only time I see to get ultras in ZvZ, is an extremely close muta vs muta game, where both of you get 20+ mutas, don't die, and get infestors appropriately after 20+ mutas, forcing the muta vs muta game into a stalemate of sorts. Then it becomes a game of harass without losing all your mutas to a single FG basically (1 fg + mutas), and then into Ultra vs Ultra with muta/infestor micro. But it's very rare for that. That's assuming a perfectly even game, where neither player gets a huge lead either way, and neither of you get a 2 or more muta advantage and decide to just steamroll the other (once you get about 20 mutas, spores and stuff no longer matter, and the only reason the game just doesnt go mass muta, is because a *single* FG can end you, and while going infestors too early, like on 3 base, in muta vs muta is basically a death sentence because the other player just gets 10 mutas during that time and suddenly steamrolls you, on 4 or 5 base, you can easily slip in an infestor, so sometimes at 20 vs 20 mutas, both players become passive towards teching to infestors due to this danger). Then, if you don't die to ling/infestor/muta battles, which are extremely tense and just micro'ing your mutas not to get FG'd, but trying to FG each others infestors, it goes into ultra vs ultra. Only twice have games gotten to that. Very rare. Both of us got 20+ mutas, neck and neck the entire time in upgrades and muta count and bases and gas intake, and then we both got infestors at same time by hiding behind mass spores so we don't suddenly get steamrolled (at 4 bases you just make tons of spores, like 5-10 to prevent a base from being basically sniped in 1 second), and then gone to ultras. | ||
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