EPTThe Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 191
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Drmooose
United States390 Posts
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TheGreenMachine
United States730 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
I don't get ZvZ. The way I approach the match is akin to ZvT. I try to open hatch first, then defend with banelings. 15 hatch/14pool/13gas, there's a brief period of time where I don't have speed and he does but it's OKish I can still defend. Generally afterwards he gets his own expansion at which point I drone a bit (I scout this with an OL), then go to lair. What I try to do is get Muta and as soon as I have those, I take a third and defend it against Roach/Ling and then use the Muta to deny his own third and then kill OL. I drone my third and normally I'm at an advantage because it's 3 base vs 2 base and I've got more shit. I transition into Roach/Infestor though afterwards, because Infestors are really strong against Muta and Muta aren't that great in straight up fights (at least not against armored Roaches). At this point I hope I'm ahead enough to end the game or take a 4th with the advantage I have. Is this the correct way to play the mu? Should I consider some other options for getting my third while denying his? Is there a way to micro against MASS ROACH AND MASS infestor which I feel is seriously a retarded kind of fight. Should I be thinking of concaves and upgrades and shit? Are Hydra worth adding or are more Roaches better? Can someone very good give me a few pointers about this (dumb) match up? Similarly I'm having trouble with ZvP. My game plan is to take a quick third against an FE, mass drones up till a certain amount and then sort of take the map. I feel like Roach/Ling can keep map control fine-ish (by containing him in his base), so I either saturate my 3 base or maybe even take a 4th. But meh, then he comes out with Stalker/Colossi (off of two base) and attack moves across the map, nothing I can do about it. I honestly have trouble dealing with the death ball. Roaches are such short ranged units and lings are a joke against any armored unit that clump against each other. Infestors are apparently the real deal but they're quite gas heavy, should I be rushing to get as many infestors as possible asap (when i'm at 3 base vs 2 base, say around 11 minutes)? Or Corrupters? Also what's so great about Infestors? Sure they prevent movement, fuck that, Stalkers don't need to move against Roaches with the range they have. FG does something liek 40 damage to stalkers, which isn't ALL that much. I'm kind of confused with ZvP. Stephano seems to have a good understanding of the mu, maybe someone can explain his play a bit? | ||
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Guamshin
Netherlands295 Posts
He goes FFE i go 3 hatch before gas. I forgot to overlord scout untill very late which was pretty bad but anyway I was thinking to go Mutalisks untill i saw like 5 phoenixes, so i basicly fell into a very weird position. I didn't know how to respond. So i went more aggresive since he took his third(roach hydra composition), attack made me lose my whole army and he got his third base while i was still on my third. Then he just got a deathball and rolled over me. What's the right response to this? | ||
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Olsson
Sweden931 Posts
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jodenstone
Sweden45 Posts
You need to drone a little longer than against a 6 gate, if you start making units too early you will likely die a couple of minutes later even with perfect injects against a good player. Try to drone all the way to 9:30, make sure he doesn't put a proxy pylon anywhere, and start making units only after that until you push him back. Lair into infestors is fine if you tech slowly while roach/linging. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 25 2012 08:48 Olsson wrote: Are you supposed to hold 7gate blink all-in +2 with Roach, ling-roach, roach-hydra or roach ling? Because I went roach ling adding on four infestors and I didnt get enough units to stop it even though I was on three base saturation with all gases. From experience I never hold with roach/ling vs the korean protosses I play. Everytime I have tried the +2 blink stalker all in destroys me no matter what. The only way I have beaten it was ling/infestor or roach/hydra. I have had 0 luck with roach/ling vs it and am pretty sure its impossible xD | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I have a question in regards to hatch first. When you go hatch first, and the opponent is going 1 base roach, when do you get your own roaches out? Slowlings, then speedlings, seem to work for a very long time, but there gets to a point where they don't. So I was wondering what you guys thought of that. And can someone give some tips on going hatch first baneling expand? i always seem to screw up units vs drones - i either drone too early and die, or most commonly, i don't make drones and end up behind. i was wondering what you guys maybe look for, or benchmarks you set. Like just because they expanded, doesn't exactly say if they are making drones or banes (not a 21 expand, but like after initial bane wave)., so it's sort of confusing. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 25 2012 11:47 Belial88 wrote: ^ You use roach/hydra or ling/infestor when going fast third??? I have a question in regards to hatch first. When you go hatch first, and the opponent is going 1 base roach, when do you get your own roaches out? Slowlings, then speedlings, seem to work for a very long time, but there gets to a point where they don't. So I was wondering what you guys thought of that. And can someone give some tips on going hatch first baneling expand? i always seem to screw up units vs drones - i either drone too early and die, or most commonly, i don't make drones and end up behind. i was wondering what you guys maybe look for, or benchmarks you set. Like just because they expanded, doesn't exactly say if they are making drones or banes (not a 21 expand, but like after initial bane wave)., so it's sort of confusing. Yes you will be able to get the hydras/infestors before +2 blink stalker timing hits. Having an overlord to check your opponents drone count is a great way to see if he's making drones or units ^^. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
But there's like that huge timing when they are building that hatch at the natural that I'm not sure what's going on. If he's continuing even mild aggression, I can't tell, and so I'm basically sitting at 17 drones on 2 hatch vs his 1 base with ??? drones with another hatch building, that may or may not have a ton of drones put into it. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On February 25 2012 12:09 Belial88 wrote: ^ An overlord by his main? Most maps seem to large for that... or should I send the overlord I normally send to his natural, instead behind his mineral line? that seems like a good idea... with my propensity to 10 drone scout/14 on 4 player maps, I know their build anyways. But there's like that huge timing when they are building that hatch at the natural that I'm not sure what's going on. If he's continuing even mild aggression, I can't tell, and so I'm basically sitting at 17 drones on 2 hatch vs his 1 base with ??? drones with another hatch building, that may or may not have a ton of drones put into it. Behind the natural of the mineral line. Every map except for Metalopolis (other then top left hand corner) you can put an overlord in an unkillable spot (unless he makes mutalisks) and poke in and out to see drone count. It can be hurt but not killed if you do it properly. Have yet to see a map (other then metal in 3 of the 4 posision) where you can't do that with an overlord. Sacrificing a ling or 2 is good as well every so often tot try and see what he's doing. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I have another question: I have been having a lot of trouble recently with 2 base muta, specifically, 2 base muta after I have a huge lead from the opening (almost always it is holding a 6-8 pool when going hatch first, but more generally, just having a hatch first against poool first). Generally, I just go later mutas and win with higher econ, but many times it's hard to do this, because maybe I don't get wind of him going mutas early enough (like they don't take all 4 gas), or I made a bunch of roaches for early game just for whatever. In these cases where going mutas myself isn't an option, like I see he went like 30 supply lair super fucking fast, I'm not sure what to do. I don't know how to handle mutas, without going mutas myself. Then I just kind of die. I don't really know how to explain it, but I don't make enough drones I suppose is a big problem of it, but I'm just genuinely confused on what to do. I feel fast third isn't an option against super fast mutas, and I just don't know if I should make hydras, or queens, or infestors. I feel like a mass roach push is just too all-in, and by the time I'd hit he'd have mass spines or enough mutas, since he got his mutas out so early and continually added to them. I realize a lot of this may be a problem with not droning enough in early game... but it's like, they go 30 supply lair, I hold their aggression with a lead, and then I don't know how to respond to the mutas if I can't go mutas myself. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
How do you 'open' it? Do you go like, 2 base roach/hydra, take third, then infestors? 2 base infestor, then roaches, then 3 base add hydras? I mean normal muta play, I just respond with higher econ, later lair muta. But it's these like stupid fucking games where people go 6 pool, end up way behind, and then they go like 30 supply muta, and somehow I just end up stopping drones at like 30 and then they drone up. But I'm not really sure how to play it. Is it all relative, or do you just aim for that set 50 drones and you get it, no matter what? I just see these 30 supply lairs and respond with like my 40 lair and messily get hydras or infestors.... it's like the play is so bad, it's good, and I'm kind of lost on it. A few days ago I lost to someone who went 6 pool, I hold it off, and like he goes 1 base muta (he gets expo eventually, but basically what he does). He makes a ton of lings, probably stopped drones at like 25, maybe 30, I handle that, and then mutas come in. I defend with spores,but eventually I'm too busy throwing up spores and killing my econ with hydras and gas and such that they just end up ahead. I think the real root of the problem is I just freak out too much vs 1 base play and don't know how to drone up against it... I'm sorry, maybe I'm wasting your time. Thanks for your replies. | ||
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sanddbox_sc2
United States173 Posts
On February 25 2012 14:45 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what is your response if someone goes super fast mutas? Because you cant get infestors at 40 supply... or do you resopnd to super fast muta at 30 supply by going super fast infestors? How do you 'open' it? Do you go like, 2 base roach/hydra, take third, then infestors? 2 base infestor, then roaches, then 3 base add hydras? I mean normal muta play, I just respond with higher econ, later lair muta. But it's these like stupid fucking games where people go 6 pool, end up way behind, and then they go like 30 supply muta, and somehow I just end up stopping drones at like 30 and then they drone up. But I'm not really sure how to play it. Is it all relative, or do you just aim for that set 50 drones and you get it, no matter what? I just see these 30 supply lairs and respond with like my 40 lair and messily get hydras or infestors.... it's like the play is so bad, it's good, and I'm kind of lost on it. A few days ago I lost to someone who went 6 pool, I hold it off, and like he goes 1 base muta (he gets expo eventually, but basically what he does). He makes a ton of lings, probably stopped drones at like 25, maybe 30, I handle that, and then mutas come in. I defend with spores,but eventually I'm too busy throwing up spores and killing my econ with hydras and gas and such that they just end up ahead. I think the real root of the problem is I just freak out too much vs 1 base play and don't know how to drone up against it... I'm sorry, maybe I'm wasting your time. Thanks for your replies. Because I always play hatch first against 14/14, I'm used to playing against mutas with a lead, so this is the basics of how to easily win: -Get 3 bases + a macro hatch, saturate, 1 spore at each base -Constant queen production from each hatchery -+1 attack followed by +1 carapace and +2 carapce (you should attack at one of these upgrade timings, preferably +2 carapace) -6 or so infestors, followed by tons of roaches From there you can simply waltz across the map and kill them or play a macro game if you really want to (I wouldn't bother when you can straight up kill them). Obviously, you should only do this if they try to go beyond two bases. There's basically two options for playing muta: a)Herp derp mass muta, where they only make muta ling spine - this straight up loses to roach queen infestor and is easily beaten b)8 or so muta into roach - this you usually need an advantage to beat, but keep in mind that 10 queens with a ton of pooled tranfuse is a HUGE advantage. Basically, you just amove, throw down 50 infested terrans, and transfuse like crazy. It's not really holdable if they're far behind, especially if you get fancy and either a) nydus or b) have creep spread either through tumors or speed overlords to your target. | ||
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KimJongChill
United States6429 Posts
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GoldenDarkness
19 Posts
On February 25 2012 14:45 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what is your response if someone goes super fast mutas? Because you cant get infestors at 40 supply... or do you resopnd to super fast muta at 30 supply by going super fast infestors? How do you 'open' it? Do you go like, 2 base roach/hydra, take third, then infestors? 2 base infestor, then roaches, then 3 base add hydras? I think the real root of the problem is I just freak out too much vs 1 base play and don't know how to drone up against it... I'm sorry, maybe I'm wasting your time. Thanks for your replies. [I cutted out something stuff to just make this easier on the eyes] First of all you need to learn the signs of the notorious one base muta. They don't usually muta unless it's either close air or extremely stupidly far (even then this is a preferable setup). 1 gas with 3 drones = 100 gas/per 50 sec translate to 116 gas/min if my math isn't off here. Anyways for them to go one base muta they need to tech lair-> spire, which is 300 gas, in other words if they are stocking gas for muta off one base they should be rushing for gas this will kill their economy. Unless of course they cut on the muta which just makes life easier for you. 1 Base muta occurs somewhere in the neighbourhood of 9min-11min. If you notice he hasn't spent any gas on units aka roaches/upgrades. Then expect the muta or really bad macro. 11 muta should arrive at your base close by air, aka shattered Temple/metropolis by 10min mark. Now that you know your timing, go run an OV into his base at 8 min. Or poke his front. No gas unit? evo and 2-3 spores. Alternatively you can build hydra but they're too slow and won't help you much to survive atm because they are slow and require a ton of gas. Be sure to join bases with creep asap if you want to consider this route. And yes 6 queen with energy does beat 11 muta oddly enough. Just take some micro. | ||
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Drmooose
United States390 Posts
On February 25 2012 14:45 Belial88 wrote: ^ So what is your response if someone goes super fast mutas? Because you cant get infestors at 40 supply... or do you resopnd to super fast muta at 30 supply by going super fast infestors? How do you 'open' it? Do you go like, 2 base roach/hydra, take third, then infestors? 2 base infestor, then roaches, then 3 base add hydras? I mean normal muta play, I just respond with higher econ, later lair muta. But it's these like stupid fucking games where people go 6 pool, end up way behind, and then they go like 30 supply muta, and somehow I just end up stopping drones at like 30 and then they drone up. But I'm not really sure how to play it. Is it all relative, or do you just aim for that set 50 drones and you get it, no matter what? I just see these 30 supply lairs and respond with like my 40 lair and messily get hydras or infestors.... it's like the play is so bad, it's good, and I'm kind of lost on it. A few days ago I lost to someone who went 6 pool, I hold it off, and like he goes 1 base muta (he gets expo eventually, but basically what he does). He makes a ton of lings, probably stopped drones at like 25, maybe 30, I handle that, and then mutas come in. I defend with spores,but eventually I'm too busy throwing up spores and killing my econ with hydras and gas and such that they just end up ahead. I think the real root of the problem is I just freak out too much vs 1 base play and don't know how to drone up against it... I'm sorry, maybe I'm wasting your time. Thanks for your replies. I hate hate hate when that happens. Once you are positive they're going Mutas (OL sac/overseer/ling run in) Toss up a spore or two at each base you have and an additional queen. I tend to stay away from Hydras in this situation (if they're one base) and just pump Roach/ling. One one base they can't hold it. Mutas take forever to kill roaches. Infestors will be a bit late but are the best answer IMO. Keep pressuring him while continuing to sneak in a drone or two. Another option is obviously going mutas yourself isn't a bad option because you should be way far ahead in gas and should quickly outnumber him. A few banes to defend the incoming lings and you should win. Unfortunately, its based far too heavily on scouting. Anytime I see any 1 base play and don't see more than 4 roaches I think it has to be muta. (1 base infestor is rare.) Just keep reminding yourself that you're ahead on econ and don't continue to overdrone. I tend to do this a lot but I've noticed the more cautious I am the better it plays out. Sim City your base so lings can have a field day and just keep making units as you know he won't be able to beat you with anything other than you not having antiair. *edit its late and my answer sounds dumb. Basically just keep reminding yourself that overmaking units is an okay thing because you're ahead. I treat it as any other all in. Keep reminding youself as long as you survive his inevitable all in attack you win. | ||
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GoldenDarkness
19 Posts
On February 25 2012 17:49 KimJongChill wrote: Hey guys, how are you holding the really fast (around 8min) 4 gate +1 zealot push off of an ffe? Are there any good reads? Sometimes they go void-rays with it and it gets confusing because they grab natural gas and I end up overdroning and simply dying. I like to throw down a warren around 6:30, so should I just be blindly grabbing a few roaches once the warren pops? I know this sounds redundant but hear me out. Scout his base at 5 min. WG tech should be half way at this point which means they will be dropping the next 3 gate this time. Speedling is a good way to run by if possible because they can only build 3 zealot and 1 sentry at most, 4 zerglings will be more than enough to run up and see if any shinenagens are up. Also keep your drone in their base as long as possible, fast void ray requires 2 gas aka he won't have the gas to go stalker/sentry heavy. If you rush his base and see a bunch of zealots prepare for void rays [Good time for that 3rd queen]. If your ling immediately pops because of stalkers. Then drop roach warren immediately. 1 round of roaches + 1 spine might even be overkill but against a standard 4 gate pressure it will hold it off. Also stagger your units building. Don't just go like "oh hey i don't see an attack" -spams drone-. Only do that till the 7min mark, which is when WG wraps up. After that, every 30 sec you notice there isn't an attack build a handful of units. If he doesn't attack then look to expand. If they do appear you'll have enough to barely hold it off [which is good since more larve in drone]. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
@Belial You can definitely hold the +2 Blink Stalker all in INITIALLY with Roach/Ling as long as it's not Tal'darim (I don't know how you hold your third on this map tbh). If you go +1 Melee instead of +1 Missile with your second 100 gas, and get burrow/roach speed immediately upon Lair completion, you can hold the initial waves by going heavier on Lings instead of Roaches, and burrowing weakened Roaches while you stall for more units. But once you see them continuing the attack and not getting a third, you need to take all gases asap and throw down a hydra den or infestation pit (DON'T GET HYDRA RANGE INITIALLY, IT'S A WASTE OF GAS AT THIS POINT). I don't think you have the time to get infestors unless you already planned on going straight to Ling/Infestor upon Lair completion. You asked about baneling first off of hatch first? Well unless you can get an overlord behind the natural, you can't really know if he's droning or not, but what I do is this: 15 h, 15p, 17 gas, double queen + spine at natural, baneling nest at 50 gas and take 2 drones off gas. Remake spine drone and baneling nest drone, then make lings as needed and queen block ramp for early mass speed ling pressure. I hotkey my spine so I can target down super fast baneling all in, but if they do delayed baneling all ins or whatever, my banes nest will be done in time. The reason I take two drones off gas after the nest is because I need as many minerals as possible at that point to pump lings, and I don't need the gas yet. Once the nest is done I can put two drones back on gas and make banelings as needed. Now once the nest is done, and I've held off whatever pressure, I make 4 banelings (2 on top of ramp, 2 in natural mineral line. Now I can almost drone completely freely and get a late speed. However, this was at first putting me at odds with people that just abused my lack of scouting ability and went super fast mutalisk off of 2 base while killing any scouting slow lings with speedlings. So what I do now is after making my 4 banes, take a second gas, ling speed, drone up to 40, and do an 8 roach (exactly 200 gas) 24+ speedling attack. I AM ahead on drones because of my hatch first (assuming I defended properly) so either he must drone to catch up, meaning he dies to this attack or takes heavy losses, or he has units there already, meaning he didn't drone and I just turn around (this attack can only be held off by roaches and lings as well). If he's going muta, you're going to see a bunch of spines right, like 3-6? Lol, just walk straight past them, put yourself in a corner behind the natural and kill as much as you can, while taking a third, getting Lair, and preparing to make spores. Once Lair is done, go Roach/Queen/Infestor and laugh at mutas. I usually take my third the moment I move out with this attack, so its done by the time mutas pop. If you want to play a ZvZ for me to show you it in action, we can do it anytime (theEND.570). @KimJongChill Okay, you're going to want to look for a forge spinning at any time from 5 min - 6 min. That just screams early zealot pressure. You then need to always have an OL checking natural gases, then sac an OL in the main at 7:30 to see if he's adding SG as well (you can go SG off of 2 gases) What I do is once I see the forge spinning, 6 minute warren and evo. He's sacrificing econ so I can do so as well. Stay on 2 gas, you should be at 3 queens, one for each hatch right? Make a 4th queen at your third, make a spore there just in case, and don't get +1 or Lair, you need the gas for Roaches (you can get Ling Speed though). Defend with Roaches/Queens. | ||
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