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On February 24 2012 07:09 Trippy wrote:In this ZvP I just played the guy FFE'd and cannoned my natural http://drop.sc/118578. How do I stop that and should I have gg'ed there?
I dont know exactly how you avoid this particular situation... Its mostly a spider sense thing, really. Personally I like to send my 9 or 10 overlord over my own natural when I play vs protoss. This will almost always be in time to see a "FFE" cannonrush coming, and the variations are as many as the optimal responses. Always pool first, of course! On typical FFE maps 10 overlord extractor trick -> 11 spawning pool -> 15 supply make queen + 1 ling, clear out any disturbance and plant hatch. Your hatchery will for a certainty not get delayed by a pylon block by doing this, and you also make nexus first a risky thing for the protoss since he cannot know if you will be making more than 1 set of lings.
Anyways im rambling, onwards.
- FFE places 1 pylon, looks like pylon block. Sadly he places a cannon also. This is super annoying, and the best thing you can do imo is to have a drone chase the probe and try to inflict some damage. Micro that baby! Often, the protoss will pull his probe back to avoid losing it. If he does get the cannon, pull 3 more drones and kill it. If he builds many cannons, proceed to send one drone to another location (dont hatch until you have lings out there to protect it) and the rest back to mine. Get at least some lings out of your main if you can at all, to protect the hatch!
- FFE into pylon ramp block + cannon. Make spine, plant creep tumor with first 25 energy. Make 2nd queen, drone like crazy so that you are ready to either roach bust with a strong econ, do a hydra push, nydus allin, drop allin, or simply expand and play a normal game with instantaneous saturation as your natural pops.
- FFE into pylon + cannon behind your mineral line. Cancel hatch, plant it somewhere else, get lings out to protect the new hatch from a similar fate. Remember to eventually clear out that pylon that blocks your original natural before he can warp in stuff!
Of all the situations, I think situation 1 is most annoying and probably will also cost you the most since you must get rid of the blocks asap, and must use units for it in order to open a path to your "new natural" as the buildings are probably out of reach of a spine at the ramp. Situation 2 hampers your econ abit but also delays his expansion by a lot, so it evens out, just dont panic and overreact to it. Situation 3 SHOULD be a free win for you since it barely delays anything, but costs him so much. In any case; never gg out just because of some silly cannons. There are always ways around it, and if you play it smartly it will be to your benefit. Example: bust situation 1 down with roaches. He now must make at least 2, maybe even 3 defensive cannons or risk you bust him. Instead, you just drone. But I agree, cannon rushes in all their variations are so bloody annoying! Just develop your own preferred style of dealing with it, and remember overlord vision range is greater than cannon range, so you should know everything that is going on at all times.
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On February 24 2012 08:19 Thraundil wrote:I dont know exactly how you avoid this particular situation... Its mostly a spider sense thing, really. Personally I like to send my 9 or 10 overlord over my own natural when I play vs protoss. This will almost always be in time to see a "FFE" cannonrush coming, and the variations are as many as the optimal responses. Always pool first, of course! On typical FFE maps 10 overlord extractor trick -> 11 spawning pool -> 15 supply make queen + 1 ling, clear out any disturbance and plant hatch. Your hatchery will for a certainty not get delayed by a pylon block by doing this, and you also make nexus first a risky thing for the protoss since he cannot know if you will be making more than 1 set of lings. Anyways im rambling, onwards. - FFE places 1 pylon, looks like pylon block. Sadly he places a cannon also. This is super annoying, and the best thing you can do imo is to have a drone chase the probe and try to inflict some damage. Micro that baby! Often, the protoss will pull his probe back to avoid losing it. If he does get the cannon, pull 3 more drones and kill it. If he builds many cannons, proceed to send one drone to another location (dont hatch until you have lings out there to protect it) and the rest back to mine. Get at least some lings out of your main if you can at all, to protect the hatch! - FFE into pylon ramp block + cannon. Make spine, plant creep tumor with first 25 energy. Make 2nd queen, drone like crazy so that you are ready to either roach bust with a strong econ, do a hydra push, nydus allin, drop allin, or simply expand and play a normal game with instantaneous saturation as your natural pops. - FFE into pylon + cannon behind your mineral line. Cancel hatch, plant it somewhere else, get lings out to protect the new hatch from a similar fate. Remember to eventually clear out that pylon that blocks your original natural before he can warp in stuff! Of all the situations, I think situation 1 is most annoying and probably will also cost you the most since you must get rid of the blocks asap, and must use units for it in order to open a path to your "new natural" as the buildings are probably out of reach of a spine at the ramp. Situation 2 hampers your econ abit but also delays his expansion by a lot, so it evens out, just dont panic and overreact to it. Situation 3 SHOULD be a free win for you since it barely delays anything, but costs him so much. In any case; never gg out just because of some silly cannons. There are always ways around it, and if you play it smartly it will be to your benefit. Example: bust situation 1 down with roaches. He now must make at least 2, maybe even 3 defensive cannons or risk you bust him. Instead, you just drone. But I agree, cannon rushes in all their variations are so bloody annoying! Just develop your own preferred style of dealing with it, and remember overlord vision range is greater than cannon range, so you should know everything that is going on at all times.
If you're relying on 'spider sense' then you're playing extremely risky. You need an overlord over each expansion building.
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Hello,
While I've been ladering recently I've run into alot of 2 Base ZvP, P who get an upgrade like +1 armor and about 3~ immortals off 5 gates and 1 robo attacking around 11-12 minutes on a whole bunch of maps. I'm a platinum level zerg and I can't seem to deal with it effectively no matter what I do; in a game I just played on antiga shipyard expanded at like 5:30 and droned heavily until 8:30 off 1 geyser and at 12 minutes I had 40 roachs with +1 speed and burrow and I still got rolled even scouting the upgrade being crono'd out. I didn't make any lings at all but he had 7 full energy sentries so it seemed kind of pointless. Whats the correct way to respond to this build? Thanks!
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drone hard like you did, then get lair and make a hydra den, ling hydra if they are stalker heavy, roach hydra if they are zealot heavy, spread creep as much as possible get a good surround.
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Anyone have any good 2 base all ins vs toss that work a good percentage of the time, I've decided i'm just fed up with this match up and I dont even care to try and play it legit anymore, I just want something I can do every game that beats some builds, dont even care if its blind as long as I win more than half the time with it.
Masters only please, I could do anything I want in diamond.
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^ Hydra timings have always been decent against 2 base toss who opens stargate. Maybe even with nydus or drops thrown in. 2 base muta is okay, I've heard a lot of high masters complain about about 10 pool or 6 pool into 2 base muta as a sort of cheese. Like 8 pool into 2 base muta.
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ZvZ: When two Roach/Infestor armies collide, is it better to blanket his whole force with fungal, or chain my fungals on specific sections of his front (like the edges of his concave)?
I typically try to get as much coverage as possible (and my opponents do as well), but then whoever has more fungals or more roaches or better upgrades just wins.
Basically I'm looking for guidelines to better place my fungals and let me overcome a deficit in units/position-- and mostly related to head on engagements (though any ideas on how to use fungals better in general would be appreciated)
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You want to conserve energy well. So generally that means chaining fungals without clipping on the larger clumps. I find whoever maintains their energy better, wins. You don't want to engage in bad position either way.
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fellow zergs i have question for u guys what do u do against aturtling toss that ffe then proceed to get pheonixes to harass ca
nnon bases and proceed to mass void mixed in with 3-4 colossi n mass cannon into 3 base n mass upgraded voids? i have tried mass upgraded corruptors, mass upgraded mutas, infestors corruptors n nothing seem to work if toss turtles 3 base i mean i take most bases but once he gets critical mass he cleans up my bases with ease. remajes just dont come out as a group fast enough to fight his death ball, infestors dont do well as he doesnt bunch up his voids
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On February 24 2012 16:16 jaguarz wrote:
fellow zergs i have question for u guys what do u do against aturtling toss that ffe then proceed to get pheonixes to harass ca
nnon bases and proceed to mass void mixed in with 3-4 colossi n mass cannon into 3 base n mass upgraded voids? i have tried mass upgraded corruptors, mass upgraded mutas, infestors corruptors n nothing seem to work if toss turtles 3 base i mean i take most bases but once he gets critical mass he cleans up my bases with ease. remajes just dont come out as a group fast enough to fight his death ball, infestors dont do well as he doesnt bunch up his voids
Most likely it's not a strategic issue but a matter of you not macroing properly.
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try a 200 vs 170 turtle mass voids maybe u will see wat i mean. but anywayz if it gets to that point wat can u do? one thing i hvnt tried though as some of my teammates suggested was actually mass infestors
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^ Maybe post replays. But if someone is massing voids that should be pretty easy to deal with. Just go kill them. Teching that hard means you should ahve a million drones too.
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On February 24 2012 09:37 BinxyBrown wrote:
drone hard like you did, then get lair and make a hydra den, ling hydra if they are stalker heavy, roach hydra if they are zealot heavy, spread creep as much as possible get a good surround.
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Anyone have any good 2 base all ins vs toss that work a good percentage of the time, I've decided i'm just fed up with this match up and I dont even care to try and play it legit anymore, I just want something I can do every game that beats some builds, dont even care if its blind as long as I win more than half the time with it.
Masters only please, I could do anything I want in diamond.
I have been throwing in a lot of fast 2-hatch roach/ling allins vs FFE's on shattered temple. The beautiful part about it is you do it as a reaction of seeing the FFE, not as a pre-decided opener. 14 pool, 16 gas, the protoss will be unable to tell that you are mining gas past a hundred as lings should be out to chase the probe away before you hit 100. Expand asap, drone to around 26 food. Pop roach warren on some 22-23 supply, make 2 overlords in preparation. During all this you of course deny further scouting with your first 4 lings. If he sends out one zealot dont be afraid to gather all 4 lings off the map and kill it. As warren and overlords pop, an inject should line up fairly nicely, make roaches. Next larvae should go to an overlord, and then you reinforce with lings rallied in right next to the toss line of buildings. As you cannot intially afford a second queen with this, feel free to reinforce with a few roaches too. Unless the protoss has put up a very large amount of cannons and has money forcefields, you should be able to at the very least kill the natural. Just make sure you, at the point where you have enough offensive units, place evo chambers, a spore or two, make more queens and more drones. As the "standard" response seems to be panic-stargate. Anyway its not a refined build or anything just something I toss in every so often especially on shattered temple. You can probably make it alot smoother if you spend a few hours in a practise map.
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I want to ask this again:
To those who hatch first, how do you do it? How do you hold 14/14 ling/bane all-ins?
My problem recently in ZvZ is the aggression, but that I don't exactly know when to drone. Often times the opponent is just greedy and I fall way behind in drones. What can I do about this?
I guess it's a bit hard to be exact about this... but it's like my opponent will drone really hard after rallying a ton of lings, and I don't know where to make more units for continued aggression or make drones. I always seem to overmake units.
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On February 24 2012 17:34 Belial88 wrote:
I want to ask this again:
To those who hatch first, how do you do it? How do you hold 14/14 ling/bane all-ins?
My problem recently in ZvZ is the aggression, but that I don't exactly know when to drone. Often times the opponent is just greedy and I fall way behind in drones. What can I do about this?
I guess it's a bit hard to be exact about this... but it's like my opponent will drone really hard after rallying a ton of lings, and I don't know where to make more units for continued aggression or make drones. I always seem to overmake units.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583
If you see the other zerg droning hard you can then go into a roach/ling all in that will kill him if he's being as greedy as you say they are vs you.
If you don't like the roach way you can go baneling nest instead but there is less room for error.
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On February 24 2012 16:52 jaguarz wrote:
try a 200 vs 170 turtle mass voids maybe u will see wat i mean. but anywayz if it gets to that point wat can u do? one thing i hvnt tried though as some of my teammates suggested was actually mass infestors
i will try to find the replay when i get home i gues it didnt help.with being on antiga shipyard where his force just seiges in the middle of three base.
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ZvP lategame.
With a BL/Infestor army, how do I deal with a protoss that harasses my expos? They'll send a bunch of Zealots/DTs to one base and when I move to defend, he sends another part of his army to attack an undefended one. I simply cannot move around fast enough with my BLs to defend. Is the solution simply to MASS spines/spores at each base?
Edit: Replay: http://drop.sc/118843/d Pretty terrible early game from me, and I welcome any tips to help me improve, but the main problem was the multiple harass at the end.
On a side note, what is the best way to deal with vortex late game? I try to split my broodlords as much as possible but they move so slowly and tend to clump up when I attack with them. If the protoss gets half my BLs they send their archons in while the rest of their army kills the other half of my army that remains. It's incredibly frustrating to be ahead the entire game and lose to a single vortex at the end.
Thanks!
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On February 24 2012 16:52 jaguarz wrote:
try a 200 vs 170 turtle mass voids maybe u will see wat i mean. but anywayz if it gets to that point wat can u do? one thing i hvnt tried though as some of my teammates suggested was actually mass infestors
Well mass ling for counter attacks as Void rays never get full charge against lings, also infestors chain fungals works great as void rays stack so easily
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Was reading Sheth's droning guide just now. Realise that vs Terran, we practically have to bang up our drones? He says that sometimes it goes up to like 24 per base on mining. With this sort of play when should I stop droning and maximize my army? I always realise I have too much money banked when I vs terran
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Just played a Zvrandom. Scouted at 9 like I always do and got lucky and scouted a 7 pool. At the time I was at 12 supply and threw down my hatch at 12. Typically I open 14/14 in zvz so my hatch is a little later. While I didn't have a problem holding it off what is better economically? Do I get the earlier pool and fight with a few less drones but lings faster? Or fight with drones at 14 like normal. Again not asking how to stop a 6 pool. Just curious what's better overall.
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On February 25 2012 05:24 Drmooose wrote:
Just played a Zvrandom. Scouted at 9 like I always do and got lucky and scouted a 7 pool. At the time I was at 12 supply and threw down my hatch at 12. Typically I open 14/14 in zvz so my hatch is a little later. While I didn't have a problem holding it off what is better economically? Do I get the earlier pool and fight with a few less drones but lings faster? Or fight with drones at 14 like normal. Again not asking how to stop a 6 pool. Just curious what's better overall.
You scouted a 7 pool and 12 hatched? Or did you mean pool? I would throw down the pool asap (and make drones after it and try not to forget overlord if possible  ). Drones are great vs lings but you do have to micro them decently by stacking them, buying time for your lings to come out.
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EPT
