|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here.
The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold.
|
What is the best response to a 200 mineral dropship harass that has infinite units to unload without going Mutas and be cost effective at the same time?
|
On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here.
Deny his third 
|
On January 17 2012 02:44 Rk0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 02:07 zJayy962 wrote:
Been playing a lot of ZvP lately and I'd say 80% of Protoss do some sort of FFE or Nexus first. Since I play it so much I have a pretty good grasp on how to handle each situation after a Protoss early expands.
Now the other 20% of Protoss play a 1 gate or 3 gate expand and I have no idea how to play against it. When do I need to build units or take a 3rd? How do I know if hes faking a push or if hes actually attacking if I see him bring a probe with units to the center? I feel terribly afraid of Protoss pushes if he doesn't FFE that I either over make units and lose later on because a lack of drones or I make too little units and lose vs a 3gate push with 5 or 6 sentries.
Edit: Currently around 700 point masters Its quite easy, if you want to take a third just scout him and check what kind of units he has. If he has a lot of sentries you could expect a push, usually I make some roaches/lings to prevent that or do a runby with and so he has to return to defend or else it will be an all in. And just take your third after that.
Well that's the problem for me sometimes. It's hard to scout their composition when they sit behind a wall in their natural. Should I also be getting a fast lair to get a scout on their unit composition? Wouldn't that cut into the drone count too much?
Also, is it better to take the third as fast as possible, or does that hurt the economy too much?
|
On January 17 2012 05:08 Spec wrote:
What is the best response to a 200 mineral dropship harass that has infinite units to unload without going Mutas and be cost effective at the same time?
Assuming you are being defensive, two to three infestors at each base and good map awareness. When you see it coming fungal and toss a few infested terrans. Fungal again and finish it off. eZ.
|
On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third
ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made.
On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold.
So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions.
|
On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions.
It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse.
|
On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse.
Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army.
|
On January 17 2012 07:03 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse. Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army.
If you have worse upgrades and a smaller army then yes. You are in the mindset that there are absolutely no limitations to what the toss can do. Three bases is not a lot. They can get a lot of stuff of it, but it is still restricting. From what I can tell the way you see it they will have archons (which requires templar archives or dark shrine, both expensive buildings, and archons are expensive too,) plenty of colossi, a mothership (fleet beacon and another 400 gas,) void rays, and lots of stalkers. That amount of gas is simply not possible on three bases alone, unless they turtle for a solid 20 minutes.if they are then brood lords will be easy to get in time. However most tosses will move out at 200/200 stalker/colossus/void ray, which Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor can beat. Keep in mind fungal is a pretty good spell. It is killable, you just refuse to believe it.
And on the idea of a toss winning a base race, you are correct in that it is more mobile, but that would only really matter on Tal'darim Altar, where the superior tactic is mass mutalisk. Almost any other map it is possible to intercept the toss army, and infestor/brood lord/anything can beat most toss army comps.
|
Mid masters need help with ZvP
Im on the edge to being high masters the only thing that holds me back is my ZvP
I usaly go roach hydra corrupter or ling//bane (roach) muta adnd take my hive arround 18-22min
The problem is against defensiv players. Feels so hard being agressiv since there always chokes to theire natural/third wich makes it hard pushing in with roach hydra, they will have FF as well, and i cant really sit back and wait for him to push out cus its always befor i get hive tech.
When should i be agressiv agains toss? And if i want to go for alot of agression, wich is the best way?
|
^ Depends on the map. For example, Zerg doesn't get a special 4th veto which is total bullshit but so sometimes I'm stuck playing ZvP on Entombed Valley, the worst ZvP eva. You really can't deny Toss' third, so whereas on 'normal' maps you generally go fast third, make tons of roach/ling to defend gateway aggression or deny toss' third, on maps where P has super easy to take third, you want to cut on roach/ling as much as possible and try to tech rather than make army to deny the third.
Don't go roach/hydra/corruptor. It's not really 'viable' anymore (Stephano's worst match-up is ZvP), and it works best as roach/hydra extreme aggression on fast 3 base vs 2 base protoss, to deny the toss third, on maps like Shakuras where there's a huge open field between 2nd and 3rd. If going fast third vs FFE and toss goes fast third, and you decide not to try to punish it (for whatever reason, map design, etc), try to go for more infestor based tech, or mutas, or hive tech.
If you do want to go for a lot of aggression though, what I do is max out on roach/ling hatch tech, usually to deny the third, but if I can't I get 75 drones first obviously, and I time it out so I get 2-3 infestors at 200/200, baneling nest, overlord drop, and then attack. Baneling rain is amazing against chokes and forcefields and turtles, and a 200/200 roach/banelingrain/infestor army will always crush the Toss army (it's just a matter of how cost efficiently you can do it, since banelings always die and you'll have maybe 30 roaches as the army since it's so supply costly). It's how I play about 80% of my ZvPs and I have a 67% win rate in ZvP. Depending on how successful the attack is, I either remake roach/banerain/infestor, or I remax on infestors, roaches, attack with mass roach with infestor support while teching to BL, and when roaches die off, I should have the bank and such to make 10-15 broodlords with my ~15 infestors.
|
On January 17 2012 07:34 HoBb3 wrote:
Mid masters need help with ZvP
Im on the edge to being high masters the only thing that holds me back is my ZvP
I usaly go roach hydra corrupter or ling//bane (roach) muta adnd take my hive arround 18-22min
The problem is against defensiv players. Feels so hard being agressiv since there always chokes to theire natural/third wich makes it hard pushing in with roach hydra, they will have FF as well, and i cant really sit back and wait for him to push out cus its always befor i get hive tech.
When should i be agressiv agains toss? And if i want to go for alot of agression, wich is the best way?
I find the best way to be aggressive is to just take a ton of bases. Grab all the bases you can. Don't necessarily make drones for all of them, but odds are he is going to scout that you are getting greedy, which will force aggression out of him. Once he pushes out flank him and overpower him, then push in. Alternatively take a fast hive when you see a fast third and a lot of cannons.
However if you are dead determined to get into his base and so some serious damage, then a doom drop might be the best choice. Make sure observers aren't hanging around your army first, and then load everything into ovies and drop all of it into the main and do a ton of a damage. The most imporpant part about this is to macro up behind it and have an army ready for when he cleans out his base if it doesn't kill him.
|
On January 17 2012 05:42 Alkresh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:08 Spec wrote:
What is the best response to a 200 mineral dropship harass that has infinite units to unload without going Mutas and be cost effective at the same time? Assuming you are being defensive, two to three infestors at each base and good map awareness. When you see it coming fungal and toss a few infested terrans. Fungal again and finish it off. eZ.
I don't think 450 gas x3 bases is a good defense versus a 200 minerals unit that may or may not come. If I must play defensive then I'm playing into the Protoss' hands. That's fine, but at least I need to be cost effective defensively.
|
On January 17 2012 07:53 Spec wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 05:42 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 05:08 Spec wrote:
What is the best response to a 200 mineral dropship harass that has infinite units to unload without going Mutas and be cost effective at the same time? Assuming you are being defensive, two to three infestors at each base and good map awareness. When you see it coming fungal and toss a few infested terrans. Fungal again and finish it off. eZ. I don't think 450 gas x3 bases is a good defense versus a 200 minerals unit that may or may not come. If I must play defensive then I'm playing into the Protoss' hands. That's fine, but at least I need to be cost effective defensively.
Well part of the map awareness portion of my statement was knowing whether or not he has a warp prism. If you know it is out and about then having the infestors might be worth it. Alternatively having quite a few spine crawlers and a spore would work as well. Saying a warp prism is just 200 minerals is like saying a medivac is only 100/100, and having ovie speed is just 100/100. The threat of it is enough to force your opponent to prepare for the inevitable (unless you are toss, in which case lol warp ins.) I would not recommend just leaving a few roaches or hydras because those won't be enough to stop several units dropping and a warp in.
|
^ So if I know toss parks a prism outside my base, I am forced to make muta or corruptor or I risk losing the game. I think I always have to park cost inefficient amount of units in order to counter it. I don't know if it's comparable to ZvT, but I can't put my finger on it. I guess you can have spines to delay the drop and kill it later, but if you don't deal with warp prism right away it may get out of hand... and they could drop invisible stuff :S 100/100 is so much more satisfying to kill than 200/0
I think this is a reason why some zergs auto go Mutas in zvp... It's the best counter to warp prism.
|
Corrupter is probably the best choice when it comes to taking out a warp prism because odds are you will eventually go for brood lords or the toss player will have colossus/mothership. However you were asking for ways to deal with it without using spire tech. I always recommend spire tech when dealing with warp prisms because it is the most efficient way of dealing with it and spire tech is almost essential in ZvP.
And the primary reason zergs go muta in ZvP is because it is great harassment, it keeps the toss pinned inside his base, and it allows for the zerg player to get very greedy and expand all over the place while simultaniously teching towards hive.
|
corruptors are so slow. they cant catch warp prisms with speed. warp prisms on speed is pretty much imposible to catch :s not even mutas are fast enough
|
I'm a high diamond Z, beating some low masters players but can't quite break through.
Any high diamond interested in checking out replays, giving advice, coaching, or whatever?
|
On January 17 2012 08:19 Alkresh wrote:
Corrupter is probably the best choice when it comes to taking out a warp prism because odds are you will eventually go for brood lords or the toss player will have colossus/mothership. However you were asking for ways to deal with it without using spire tech. I always recommend spire tech when dealing with warp prisms because it is the most efficient way of dealing with it and spire tech is almost essential in ZvP.
And the primary reason zergs go muta in ZvP is because it is great harassment, it keeps the toss pinned inside his base, and it allows for the zerg player to get very greedy and expand all over the place while simultaniously teching towards hive.
i like mutas better, because depending on what your opponent does you can mass them or just build a few and force some cannons and maybe make him think you go muta ling while you do whatever else you planned.
|
What's the proper response to CC first or 1 rax (sometimes with reaper) expands? Going 2 base muta doesn't work,and sometimes it's too late to try to punish it with a 6 roach push, so what do you do? Get a quick third, delay lair a bit, and defend with spines/ling/baneling?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
