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On January 14 2012 18:08 cocer wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 07:04 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 14 2012 05:57 cocer wrote:
When a protoss does a FFE into 6-7 gate allin, how many drones should i have before i start making units? as of now i have tried to get all 3 bases saturated with 4 gases and then +1 speedroaches but it seems my army is too late more often than not..
How many drones are proper for defending a 6-7 gate? You cannot fully saturate 3 bases against a proper 6-7 gate off of a FFE. You won't even have +1 done unless you get it before Ling Speed or something (which is an interesting idea...) You should be at 3 gas, 3 bases, and around 55 or so drones. Hmm okay i'll try a bit fewer drones, i always thought you were supposed tombe able to fully saturate, thanks! And btw i do get +1 beford speed, they both finish about the time a 6 gate before that you never have to deal with any other units that zealot where speed doesnt matter much 
you can only saturate a bit more than 2 bases against gateway only allins.
On January 14 2012 19:36 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 07:02 Flonomenalz wrote:On January 14 2012 04:21 Olsson wrote:
How do I beat stalker/immortal/high templars? I have no idea what composition to get. Since the only unit that can survive storms and kind of counter them is roaches but stalkers and immortals both rape roaches. It takes a long time to get that composition right, by that time you must have BLs. BLs are the only answer to that composition. This is why I always go Muta/Ling these days, if they try to do a 2 base stalker immortal HT push, just base trade with muta ling and laugh. By the time they get a 160 supply army of it off of 3 base, you should have 5 base BL tech. Then you just win because there's no Colossus to limit Broodlings. I'd go BL/roach because feedback/storm just rapes Infestors too hard. Brood lords take too long to get if he does a push and it's incredibly risky if he hits a timing. Also they're too slow, he can just go for a base race and probably win with it.
i disagree. i think aiming for broodlords while constantly threatening counterattacks is the right choice there. also, immortal HT stalker is also rather immobile, so not a good army for a base trade. you will corner him at some point with your BLs and then you got him. zerg is definitely favored in a base race there, heavily favored even
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what's the best way to deal with mech vs terran?
i played a game the other day where the dude turtled up on 3 base with a lot of tanks, while i took the map. he basically waited for me to attack with my 200 army, and after raping it, in the period of time between losing my army and remaxing, he would send out about 20 hellions to kill drones and expos which hellions can do surprisingly fast with bigger numbers and upgrades.
it wasn't a problem at first because i had the larvae and economy to make drones to replace them, and in hindsight i probably should have made a shit load of spines which i didn't. i know that after watching the replay. my problem however isn't the fact that i didn't defend well against hellion harass, my problem is breaking the line of defense the guy camped at his expos.
in a 45 minute game i tried (more or less in order)
roach push
muta harass
roach ultra
roach ling
muta ling
broodlord corruptor (which failed because he scanned my spire morphing and had 2 reactor starports on standby waiting to counter)
i used every unit basically except for hydras and infestors.
hydra because they get melted by hellions and i war scared to use infestors because of tanks range and how well hellions do vs infested terrans.
I had the best success with ultras but when it came to breaking through his wall on the ramp i took a lot of losses to tanks behind it.
what do you guys think is the best way to deal with it?
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On January 14 2012 20:37 eu.exodus wrote:
what's the best way to deal with mech vs terran?
i played a game the other day where the dude turtled up on 3 base with a lot of tanks, while i took the map. he basically waited for me to attack with my 200 army, and after raping it, in the period of time between losing my army and remaxing, he would send out about 20 hellions to kill drones and expos which hellions can do surprisingly fast with bigger numbers and upgrades.
it wasn't a problem at first because i had the larvae and economy to make drones to replace them, and in hindsight i probably should have made a shit load of spines which i didn't. i know that after watching the replay. my problem however isn't the fact that i didn't defend well against hellion harass, my problem is breaking the line of defense the guy camped at his expos.
in a 45 minute game i tried (more or less in order)
roach push
muta harass
roach ultra
roach ling
muta ling
broodlord corruptor (which failed because he scanned my spire morphing and had 2 reactor starports on standby waiting to counter)
i used every unit basically except for hydras and infestors.
hydra because they get melted by hellions and i war scared to use infestors because of tanks range and how well hellions do vs infested terrans.
I had the best success with ultras but when it came to breaking through his wall on the ramp i took a lot of losses to tanks behind it.
what do you guys think is the best way to deal with it?
I'm someone that was struggled greatly with fighting Mech, but what I have found successful is getting a really fast 3/4 base, and also Teching really quickly aswell. As in skip mutas, get the spire, festor pit, go hive, then mass roaches and other units.
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1 base allining protoss are making me crazy, i almost always win in normal games but this shit is making me lose so much.
Basicly this guy tried (he didn't even get the build right) to 4gate me and won, i made a spine crawler and lings eventually i lifted it to my expansion and he attacked when it was done, his army was too big.
Honestly i don't know what i did wrong, i scouted the gateway a little bit late(thought it was a forge untill i checked) but i i should have defended it anyway i think.
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http://drop.sc/91666?pass=79f707be-fda9-4dc6-b00c-666ed82e8022#
Been struggling with Protoss for almost 1 year... (February to be accurate, started losing every protoss since the reaper nerf)
I'm not sure what i did wrong, lair too soon ? Useless overlord speed ? Useless missile upgrade ? Should've taken the fight on the bottom of the rock instead of going up and try to fight there ? Or should i have made burrow ?
Stopped sacrificing ovis for a long time because i've got 90% of the games where the overlords didn't help me. What options do i have to get confidence in ZvP ?
I'm tired of this matchup really...
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On January 14 2012 22:51 Guamshin wrote:
1 base allining protoss are making me crazy, i almost always win in normal games but this shit is making me lose so much.
Basicly this guy tried (he didn't even get the build right) to 4gate me and won, i made a spine crawler and lings eventually i lifted it to my expansion and he attacked when it was done, his army was too big.
Honestly i don't know what i did wrong, i scouted the gateway a little bit late(thought it was a forge untill i checked) but i i should have defended it anyway i think.
It really all depends on how many units/drones you make, I personally find 2-3 spines with as few lings as possible so that I can drone up and take a 3rd asap while i tech to roaches, usually you won't get the roaches in time to actually stop the initial attack, but if he keeps trying to warp in, your roaches should pop and just win. Personally I just throw down my roach warren as soon as i scout the 4 gate...
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On January 15 2012 03:11 RaiZ wrote:http://drop.sc/91666?pass=79f707be-fda9-4dc6-b00c-666ed82e8022#Been struggling with Protoss for almost 1 year... (February to be accurate, started losing every protoss since the reaper nerf) I'm not sure what i did wrong, lair too soon ? Useless overlord speed ? Useless missile upgrade ? Should've taken the fight on the bottom of the rock instead of going up and try to fight there ? Or should i have made burrow ? Stopped sacrificing ovis for a long time because i've got 90% of the games where the overlords didn't help me. What options do i have to get confidence in ZvP ? I'm tired of this matchup really...
I think the biggest problem you had in that game was more your mental state. As soon as the game started you already told yourself you loss. Maybe try playing against some lower level protoss players to build up some confidence.
You were getting good creep going, should have put two or three spines at front (to defend natural ramp and 3rd). Then when you see him going for the rocks move spines up to 3rd and keep your units with the spines. Try to keep lings away from the zealots and use your roaches on zealots. His FF's also hurt you quite a bit, had your roaches mashed right up next to zealots.
You had an ovie right above his base, around 8 minutes should have sacrificed the ovie. You would have seen he was 6 gate and prepared for it. Your ovie was just watching him mine gas the whole game.
I have had problems with the 6 gate myself and I started going early hydra with support by roach. It has worked well for me, you just don't want to over commit on the hydra.
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Which match-ups should I drone scout in?
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On January 15 2012 07:30 Funguuuuu wrote:
Which match-ups should I drone scout in?
ZvP: You need to check for second gas timing if early heavy sentry, dt or stargate. If late its probably 1/3 gate expo but the optiton to go dt/stargate still remains.
ZvT: Optional to watch for 2rax, cc first, 1rax expo or gas play. Seeing an early second gas means either factory heavy play or banshees.
ZvZ: If you go hatch first you must drone scout to see early pools in time.
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I've been struggling with ZvZ for a long time now. I am a pretty bad player overall, but if I am matched up with a P or T in my league (Platinum), my win rate is pretty good. I cannot say the same for my ZvZ. I've found that I have the most trouble in terms of openings. I do a 14 gas/pool opening, but I believe that I'm doing something horribly wrong. I was wondering what I should be doing in terms of when I should be getting gas, pulling drones off gas, the timing of my baneling nest, the timing of my roach warren, etc. Also, is there a way to play a hatch first opening and be relatively safe to the kind of cheesy early pool/baneling builds you see in Platinum? Any general advice on mid-late game unit compositions would also be appreciated.
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On January 15 2012 07:30 Funguuuuu wrote:
Which match-ups should I drone scout in?
In ZvZ, if you go hatch first you want to drone scout @9 or 10 to see early pools, and you can also drone block their hatch if they try to go hatch first as well, but remember you have to micro your drone around in a small circle so keep the hatch block going.
In ZvT, always drone scout with your 10th drone, rally it to your opponent's spawn. Reason for this being it times very well for you to first bother the scv building the rax, so you force them to pull another scv, and then you can also count their scvs (remember to include the one building the rax and the one chasing you!) to see if it's a 2rax. If they have 11 scvs or so when u get there, they are 2 raxing you, probably 11/11. If they have 12-13 and no gas it's probably a 12/14 rax, look around the base and see if they're hiding it in a corner, if not then scout around common proxy locations. If they have 1 rax about 1/3 or halfway complete, no gas, and 13-14 scvs with more making, it's 1 rax expand.
In ZvP, I normally 12p/19h, so I send a drone after I build my pool to scout for anything greedy like 15 nex (which I auto win against)... if they are going gateway first, I steal their gas as many times as possible with extractor canceling to stop/delay any sentry heavy 4 gates or SG/DT play. Also lets you see the first unit to come out after the Zealot.
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How do you beat a 7gate blink stalker all in? I usually have 3bases up by then, with atleast 1 melee and 1 range attack. I have a roach ling composition, but even with that I lose, should i skip the upgrades and go for infestors or hydras with the roach ling composition to defend it?
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On January 15 2012 07:30 Funguuuuu wrote:
Which match-ups should I drone scout in?
It's not essential that you drone scout in any MU, as several Pro's have displayed. I'd advise that you drone scout in ZvT though. In ZvZ, scout with your opening Lings + Overlords, and the same in ZvP.
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Is it worth to change my hotkey setup to 4,5,6,7,8,9 for invidual hatcheries, 0 for all instead of queens on them. Why I really want to do this is to include tapping in my play so I can constnatly check on the progress of the larva and then inject using camera hotkeys. Is it worth doing? Only problem I see with binding each queen invidually is that you cant check progress of the inject.
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On January 15 2012 18:52 nicke10 wrote:Is it worth to change my hotkey setup to 4,5,6,7,8,9 for invidual hatcheries, 0 for all instead of queens on them. Why I really want to do this is to include tapping in my play so I can constnatly check on the progress of the larva and then inject using camera hotkeys. Is it worth doing? Only problem I see with binding each queen invidually is that you cant check progress of the inject.
The way that I do it is 4 Hatches, 5 Queens, 0 (Bound to Space) 1 Hatch for the tapping method you mention.
But essentially you just want something that your comfortable with and is also efficient. I know you've probably seen Pro's have every hatch on a hotkey, but from what I gather its a brood war era thing that they've probably become accostomed to, and I would recommend a similar method to what I, and many other (including Pro's) do. But again, what ever is comfortable and good for you at the end of the day.
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On January 15 2012 18:52 nicke10 wrote:Is it worth to change my hotkey setup to 4,5,6,7,8,9 for invidual hatcheries, 0 for all instead of queens on them. Why I really want to do this is to include tapping in my play so I can constnatly check on the progress of the larva and then inject using camera hotkeys. Is it worth doing? Only problem I see with binding each queen invidually is that you cant check progress of the inject.
either way will work, if you are more comfortable with one method over the other, use it, i made it to masters with 1 as all hatches, 3 as army, 4-6 as queens, obviously not optimal but im comfortable with it and it works for me
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I made the switch to Zerg about 3 months ago. I find extremely intense, Way more fun, and a hell of a lot faster. The First thing I learned is scouting is of the UTMOST importance in Zerg play. We don't have scan! And we don't have observers. >.< Whatever, you have Way MORE interesting methods at your disposal. Yes, most tend to come during the mid game, but Remember.. YOUR ZERG! Reactions and predictions are our Forte. ^ ^
Now, my 3 favorite openers are as such. 15hatch/14pool (Allow me to explain. IdrA demonstrated this builds incredible Power in the mid game and Excellent defense in the early game by deflecting several players in GSL with it. Take Gas when you are feeling the need. Most times in anything but ZvZ you will take double Gas after your First 2 injects assuming your queen has 0-2energy after each inject and your macro is decent. Vs Toss don't forget the S.Crawler!
Another of my favorite openers is the 14gas/14pool. This has got to be the most EFFICIENT opening we have as Zerg. You can expand Fairly early (normally between 21-30 depending on the situation) and you have early map control (Hellions will Kill that map control until you hit MuTa). This opening also opens the tech Tree early for you. If you need early units you can systematically micro your Gas economy as needed,
My last opening is kind of cheesy but it is a legit strategy. I have seen it used in GSL, and if your playing the game even somewhat decently, you can turn this Into a very nasty aggressive opening. 10pool/10gas/10queen/Drone+Safe Expo Timing. It seems shady I know, but bear with me. In a ZvZ on close positions and with proper scouting and anti scouting it can be incredibly powerful VERY early game. I can have my 14/14 smash a Protoss wall at 5:20 (Mineral Walking is such a cheap shot, but so much fun), so you can Imagine how powerful the 10pool will be, how early it will hit (and did I mention I bring 5drones? YEA, it'S just like that XD).
So, those Really can get you Into low platinum. Than I suggest you concentrate on a higher APM. Most macroAPM but it doesn't hurt to learn some drone micro and surround skills. Understand a couple things though. We have two of the hardest units to use and those units are ABSOLUTELY necessary in all match-ups at some Point. The Bane/Infestor micro is much harder to pull off properly than even Toss Force-Fields or MarinE Splitting. It requires a lot of hot-keys, and a very quick mind.
Good Luck to everyone in Zerg and Remember. just because it beat you a few times, doesn't mean it cannot be stopped. And yes, I do mean Helions and Ghost. There is an Answer to every situation. just gotta look and Practice. Your gonna play 1000 games before you ever hit Diamond if you are New to this. But it'S a hell of a lot of fun so don't give up!
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On January 14 2012 20:37 eu.exodus wrote:
what's the best way to deal with mech vs terran?
i played a game the other day where the dude turtled up on 3 base with a lot of tanks, while i took the map. he basically waited for me to attack with my 200 army, and after raping it, in the period of time between losing my army and remaxing, he would send out about 20 hellions to kill drones and expos which hellions can do surprisingly fast with bigger numbers and upgrades.
it wasn't a problem at first because i had the larvae and economy to make drones to replace them, and in hindsight i probably should have made a shit load of spines which i didn't. i know that after watching the replay. my problem however isn't the fact that i didn't defend well against hellion harass, my problem is breaking the line of defense the guy camped at his expos.
in a 45 minute game i tried (more or less in order)
roach push
muta harass
roach ultra
roach ling
muta ling
broodlord corruptor (which failed because he scanned my spire morphing and had 2 reactor starports on standby waiting to counter)
i used every unit basically except for hydras and infestors.
hydra because they get melted by hellions and i war scared to use infestors because of tanks range and how well hellions do vs infested terrans.
I had the best success with ultras but when it came to breaking through his wall on the ramp i took a lot of losses to tanks behind it.
what do you guys think is the best way to deal with it?
The key to beating mech is not so much unit composition as exploiting their lack of mobility. Mech players generally won't push unless they has a 3rd and at least 150+ units, and they don't want to split their forces. Use that to get lots of bases and an eco lead. It's good to spread your expansions so that his death push can only kill one expo at a time, i.e one expo in each corner. Mech players generally won't have that scary drops.
As far as unit composition goes, there are two styles that I personally like:
1. Mass muta. You can force him to have 1-2 defensive thors in his main with constant pokes with your mutas, weakening his potential push considerably. When he finally moves out you can have enough mutas to out-right kill his thors with the hold position trick and thereby the rest of his army. Transition to broodlord/infestor for in the late game.
2. Roach/infestor. Burrowed infestors that drop infested terrans in the middle of a tank line is pretty good, and infested terrans are also great for soaking up the initial tank shots. If his army is thor heavy instead of tank heavy, neural parasite is prett good. It's great to drop his main/outer expos with this style as it will take him ages to un-siege and get back to defend. Flee in your overlords when his tanks arrive to defend.
If his death push is to one of your outer expos, you can sack it and counter his main with your whole force. If his death push is to your main you could either do the same or use half of your army to counter his main/expos and the other half to stall him (make him siege up, every siege/un-siege takes at least 7-10 seconds). Your countering army ideally prevents reinforcements and is able to flank him from behind when you are finally forced to engage him.
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On January 14 2012 22:51 Guamshin wrote:
1 base allining protoss are making me crazy, i almost always win in normal games but this shit is making me lose so much.
Basicly this guy tried (he didn't even get the build right) to 4gate me and won, i made a spine crawler and lings eventually i lifted it to my expansion and he attacked when it was done, his army was too big.
Honestly i don't know what i did wrong, i scouted the gateway a little bit late(thought it was a forge untill i checked) but i i should have defended it anyway i think.
4 gate and other 1 base strategies is harder to deal with when you skip gas expecting forge-FE. Get gas immediately when you see that he hasn't gone for forge FE and get speed asap. Sac an OL at ~5:30 if no expand attempts have been made. You can generally drone until ~6:00 vs a protoss 1 base, but only build units and defense from then on if he hasn't placed a nexus by then. You should be far ahead enough in economy to win easily if you just hold his 4 gate then.
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On January 15 2012 07:30 Funguuuuu wrote:
Which match-ups should I drone scout in?
ZvP to know if he's going forge FE or not. You want to get early gas instead of 3rd hatch if they gate first.
ZvZ scout if you go for hatch first to know you're up against another hatch first or 14g14p (where you need to build 4-6 defensive lings just after your pool finishes, also check if he pulls drones of gas). It wont save you against 10pool though. If you want spot a 10pool with hatch first, you'll need to 9 scout on 2 player maps.
I prefer 14 scout on both occasions.
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EPT
