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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Grndr101
Belgium125 Posts
I'm new to zerg and have gotten aquainted with early game stuff, the mechanics of the race etc... However I'm still struggling to find mistakes in my games. I'm wondering if one of you could take a look and point out what I did wrong. It's a ZvP on Tal'Darim. Thx replay: http://drop.sc/89792 | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
On January 12 2012 20:25 MooSlapper wrote: I dont play Zerg but have a questino about facing Zerg--- I see Creep getting spread so easily, I dont usually dedicate time to killing it. I figure it'll just go down again, but then I thought of something--- Creep keeps spreading because the creep tumors make more tumors... so, if you make an attack on the edges of creep, all the tumors that were going to make more tumrs are dead.... right? Therefore, they need a queen to remake all the tumors in the area, therefore making it a really good idea to get up there and take out the outter tumors. Am I right here? Or, if a tumor dies, can the tumor behind it remake it or something? Is this a good strategy?> Too add to the discussion, theoretically, you are correct. However, personally, I build two extra queens to dedicate to spreading creep. It provides map vision, it gives me a speed boost, and it also forces you to use scans to kill them, wasting energy on them instead of Mules. From a Terran PoV, kill that creep  | ||
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XxJuicexX
United States48 Posts
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
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Catgroove
Sweden67 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:11 XxJuicexX wrote: what do you guys think is better versus helions. Lings and 1 spin or 5 roaches? 5 roaches + a roach warren.* | ||
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TangSC
Canada1866 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:11 XxJuicexX wrote: what do you guys think is better versus helions. Lings and 1 spin or 5 roaches? If depends on your style, I think both are viable options. I've seen great players like IdrA/Ret use 1 spine and lings to defend while droning and teching to mutas, and I've seen great players like Sheth and DRG use the 5 roaches to push out and do some counter-attacking. Personally I'd be more inclined to make roaches for a little poke in the early game, maybe do some damage but at worst gain the freedom to spread creep / drone up / take a 3rd or macro hatch. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:20 DarKFoRcE wrote: lings and 1 spine, or two on maps where 1 spine doesnt cover enough Uh DarkForcE, how do you defend hellions on Tal'darim? Like I feel the first 4 hellions can just walk around, if they see 2 spines, then just run straight into the main. My opening BO goes 14h 14-16p (16p if I scout gas or high scv no gas, 14p otherwise for 2rax) 17 g double queen and 4 lings once expo spawns ling speed at 100 gas then 2 drones off gas spine @ 4:50 or so. from there, I just got ran over by the initial 4 hellions. Should I skip a queen and get a fast 3rd hatch wall off thing to force him into my natural? Idk. | ||
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Catgroove
Sweden67 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:05 Flonomenalz wrote: Uh DarkForcE, how do you defend hellions on Tal'darim? Like I feel the first 4 hellions can just walk around, if they see 2 spines, then just run straight into the main. My opening BO goes 14h 14-16p (16p if I scout gas or high scv no gas, 14p otherwise for 2rax) 17 g double queen and 4 lings once expo spawns ling speed at 100 gas then 2 drones off gas spine @ 4:50 or so. from there, I just got ran over by the initial 4 hellions. Should I skip a queen and get a fast 3rd hatch wall off thing to force him into my natural? Idk. A few zerglings (4-6) to block him at the spines if he ever tries to run past. You can make a rule for yourself to add X zerglings depending on how many hellions you see. | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:05 Flonomenalz wrote: Uh DarkForcE, how do you defend hellions on Tal'darim? Like I feel the first 4 hellions can just walk around, if they see 2 spines, then just run straight into the main. My opening BO goes 14h 14-16p (16p if I scout gas or high scv no gas, 14p otherwise for 2rax) 17 g double queen and 4 lings once expo spawns ling speed at 100 gas then 2 drones off gas spine @ 4:50 or so. from there, I just got ran over by the initial 4 hellions. Should I skip a queen and get a fast 3rd hatch wall off thing to force him into my natural? Idk. On maps like Tal'Darim, you can use an Evolution chamber or Warren as part of the wall, and extend it upwards with Spines. Queens can help to block out Hellions from getting into you're base. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On January 13 2012 03:11 XxJuicexX wrote: what do you guys think is better versus helions. Lings and 1 spin or 5 roaches? I prefer the roach route personally as it allows you to get map control back, take a third faster with it as well (hellion's can't contain roaches :D). Just don't get upgrades with them, no roach speed, no ranged attack or anything unless he is going mech. Right now I feel whenever I watch a zerg go roaches he feels he has to commit heavily to them. I don't know why but they always seem to think they HAVE to make a lot and get upgrades for them. Don't do this please unless he's doing mech as early roaches are quite good defensively and to get a third faster and not be contained blindly not knowing if terran is going to push out or not. | ||
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goswser
United States3519 Posts
On January 12 2012 07:07 DarKFoRcE wrote: I completely disagree with that. you can definitely defend a gateway allin while teching to t2 and having taking an early third before. of course you shouldnt go super fast lair at 40 supply or w/e. but definitely dont wait till you are sure there is no x gate allin coming. 7 gate +1 hits at 8:30 on larger maps, so i think you should stop a bit earlier than 8:00 with droning. Also, if you dont get a lair and your opponent simply takes a third instead of attacking, its very difficult to proceed, as you will be far away from roachspeed / spire / pit. You can fit in a lair without any trouble regardless of your opponent's build if you take it with the right timing. The resources you are investing into a lair should be easy to spare regardless of what pressure your opponent is applying if you took your extractors at the right times. As long as you have a roach warren you can stop any super fast gateway pushes, and can deny 6 gate void or anything if you droned up hard enough early on. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
http://drop.sc/89908 | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I completely disagree with that. you can definitely defend a gateway allin while teching to t2 and having taking an early third before. of course you shouldnt go super fast lair at 40 supply or w/e. but definitely dont wait till you are sure there is no x gate allin coming. 7 gate +1 hits at 8:30 on larger maps, so i think you should stop a bit earlier than 8:00 with droning. Also, if you dont get a lair and your opponent simply takes a third instead of attacking, its very difficult to proceed, as you will be far away from roachspeed / spire / pit. I think it really, really, really depends on the map. On a map like Dual Sight or TDA (where third will be exposed), you can't really go lair. If you can utilize spines, I suppose you can get lair. Getting lair sort of requires you to get a third gas (for roach speed and all). I suppose if you are advocating cutting drones earlier than 8:00 though, that would be way you say go lair. You are saying cut drones around 45-50 and get lair instead of 50-55 and no lair. And, besides gay maps like Entombed Valley where you can never deny the third, roach speed ro not, you can deny the third just fine with mass ling and speedless roaches that are quickly on their way to getting speed. I do agree that if you don't get lair early enough, you can be in a pickle, and I'd say that is the hard thing about fighting vs FFE, but if the opponent is doing hard gateway pressure, and you hold it off, you will be just fine without a lair, and you will have roach speed when you push him back and then start teching hard before he gets returns on his expo. Obviously, if you see 3-4 gas, or that he isn't doing a gateway all-in, that's your queue to get lair. Belial, thanks for responding. I've taken the aggression philosophy for Zerg recently and I guess you think it's fundamentally whack. I am fine with the turtling way and building a deathball of my own. But, most maps don't allow an easily defended 4th and I hate to deal with protoss pushes quite a lot when they're capable of multiprong attacks with warp prism, zealots, or DTs. Do you think spore+spines is the best way of keeping the expansions under pressure? Is there really nothing I can do if I see a protoss going down 3 tech trees at once? Glad to help, but Darkforce said it much better when he said "you just have to accept that any sort of aggression by zerg before 75 drones is semi all-in" Turtling with zerg isn't a good idea. At diamond and lower masters, you can very easily just turtle on that golden 3-4 bases and get BL/Infestor out, but at higher levels of play, the toss or terran will just grab more bases and easily roll you over with extreme cost efficiency with never-ending streams of production. Turtling on 3-4 bases only really works if Toss/Terran is slow to grab their third. Plenty of maps have easily defendable fourths. Entombed Valley is fine with a somewhat closer fourth, Metalopolis, ST, Arid Plateau... i can't think of any maps that have a hard fourth, to be honest. But really, it's preferable that the fourth is open and hard to take, as it makes it much harder for Toss/Terran at a time when you as a Zerg should have map control and be perfectly okay with a wide open, exposed fourth. If you aren't going to be active with scouting, I'd recommend putting down 1 spore+2spines at your 'exposed' bases when Toss gets his third going. Obviously, you should be scouting and if Toss is opening some sort of DT play, you'll need it earlier. But assuming toss is playing 'normally', you should get it when toss gets there third. That's when I find that you should be ahead enough economically to afford it, and when Toss could get a huge lead with a DT shrine snuck in. Once Toss is on 4+ bases, I'd put down 2 spines in your main and some of the exposed bases, in such a way to make it hard for zealots to engage (ie create chokes) to deal with warp prism harass. You should have some overlord spread to know when he's going for the warp prism, so you make the spines to deal with. The worst thing in the world, in my opinion, is when your whole army because useless and unable to pressure the opponent because you have to recall your entire army to deal with a few zealots or a dropship. You don't want that to happen. which build is better to use versus Terran: 15 hatch 15 pool 17 gas or 15 hatch 16 gas 15 pool 14 hatch has been proven to be better than 15 hatch. Nestea has recently been going 14 hatch (he was going extractor trick every game for only up until a few months ago too you know). I see a lot of the pros go 17 gas so they have speedlings to deal with reactor hellion, if necessary. Personally, I don't get the gas until around 28 supply. Getting gas for ling speed really cuts your drone count, and I find putting 2 spines down for hellions is more than enough, and a sac'd overlord around 40ish supply, and 28 supply gas, will get ling speed in time to deal with any all-in besides mass rax (which you use spines and slow lings or banes to deal with anyways). It's really up to you when to get gas though, but I'd recommend gas after pool in ZvT. I'd recommend that you get the gas once you confirm it's not a 2 rax (either with drone scout, overlord, or just knowing the timings of 2 rax and noticing the timing has passed) as you want all the minerals you can get, and ling speed won't be out in time against 2 rax. | ||
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Flonomenalz
Nigeria3519 Posts
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KnT
Australia243 Posts
After watching last nights GSL where Curious looked to be in pretty good shape until Bomber slow pushed out and then slaughtered him with that marine/tank force I (I'm in Plat but aren't being very successful yet so I'll call myself high Gold) usually open with a speedling expand to be super-safe and then drop 2 spines when I scout hellion play and mass +1/+1 lings to try to catch the Terran unseiged while I pump out mutas but it doesnt seem to be working for me. Any tips on how to survive such a push? For now use + Show Spoiler + Curious vs Bomber | ||
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plzrelax_
25 Posts
How many drones does it take to constantly produce lings from a hatchery with or without a queen? | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On January 13 2012 06:05 Flonomenalz wrote: Uh DarkForcE, how do you defend hellions on Tal'darim? Like I feel the first 4 hellions can just walk around, if they see 2 spines, then just run straight into the main. My opening BO goes 14h 14-16p (16p if I scout gas or high scv no gas, 14p otherwise for 2rax) 17 g double queen and 4 lings once expo spawns ling speed at 100 gas then 2 drones off gas spine @ 4:50 or so. from there, I just got ran over by the initial 4 hellions. Should I skip a queen and get a fast 3rd hatch wall off thing to force him into my natural? Idk. no, i think youre getting your gas way too late. get that way way earlier (if you have scouted and verified he doesnt 2 rax you can get it before pool for sure, otherwise this is a bit of a risk) and you have speed around the time when there are 4 hellions. also use the first 25 energy of your natural queen to put down a creep tumor. shortly after that you can also use an evo chamber to make the choke there smaller. i guess the alternative would be to get it really late and get very early extra queens, you sometimes see that in GSL. im personally not too big of a fan of that, but it can work. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
I'll watch the rep. | ||
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Belial88
United States5217 Posts
On January 13 2012 07:39 Flonomenalz wrote: Umm.... I just got hit with a +1 8 gate off of FFE... and I'm not sure what I could have done. He had 16 sentries.... I had burrow, but not burrow move (not enough gas). I just got rolled over... what could I have done better? http://drop.sc/89908 Well, a 6 gate+1 or 7 gate comes at 8:30 and hits around 8:50ish, so anything more than that, like 7 gate+1 or 8 gate +1 will come later or weaker. If he has 16 sentries, it means he took all 4 gas and pushed later. You should've seen he made 2 gates like he did. If toss doesnt take both gas at his natural quickly (you shouldve saw with your overlord, but thats why I recommend drone scouting), then you know he's got 2 gates and likely going to do 2 gate pressure. whatever though, not what your asking, and he didnt. I recommend taking a single gas when you grab your third, for ling speed. Some zergs grab 2 gas at 5:30 (by that i mean nestea used to do this, dont know if he still does, i always feel 2 gas at 5:30 is too much gas not enough drones and too much stockpiled), but I'd recommend a single gas slightly earlier. whatever, not a big deal though. You make your overlords too early. This hurts just as much as supply blocks. I know it can be hard to keep track of, but you really need to keep a mental note of when you make overlords, so you know if you have one making or not, so you know when to make one or not. Making them too early really cuts your drone production. You should know how bad supply blocks are, im sure you are at that level of play, so you should learn how making overlords too early can be bad too. It's just an easy way to get ahead. I get you may be platinum or diamond or whatever, but it will really help you if you just remember (am i making an overlord? no? okay, ill make it when 40/44 comes up. oh word, im already making an overlord, i dont need to make one right now, ill make it when the next one pops so i can smoothly transition to 52 and 60.) But making 10 lings, that kind of killed you. Dont do that. i get you want to work on the rocks, but either make a single pair of lings at the start of the game (yes, I know 6 lings maybe later may be better, but def not 10), or just morph a spine when hatch is 3/4ths done and use a spine to work the rocks. You dont need that 4th hatch that quickly. I mean you are even on workers when you should be a good 10 workers ahead right now. But whatever. What's most important is your overlord spread, and i see you are doing a damn fine job of that. I recommend avoiding +1 upgrades until after you 100% confirm what toss is doing. It takes 160 seconds for an upgrade to finish, and even if you start it as soon as your 7:00 evo chamber completes at 7:35, you aren't going to have it in time. I also thought burrow wasn't really necessary. For the same reason. You need to be massing units, not tech. You'll be lucky to have roach speed out in time. Against gateway pushes, you really need to be massing units. It's okay to go lair if it's a delayed gateway push, like sentry heavy, but even if you go lair, and don't die because you went lair, your lair tech won't kick in in-time. So be careful of that. Confirm what's going on first, and always try to make an overseer. I would recommend you sac'd those 3 overlords than waited for overseer though. And I'd recommend that third gas when on lair tech, or running pretty on 55ish drones. Whatever though. At 11 minutes you have 7 roaches and 35 lings. Your drone count is 55, which is where it should be. I think your macro is slightly off. Not the worst, definitely not the worst, but when you make that 4th hatch you should start the queen at 50% because the pressure will hit right around then and you want that macro hatch to be paying dividends immediately. You make overlords a little too early sometimes, but I'd say the biggest reason you are so behind is because you got so much tech. Lair, +1, Roach Speed, Burrow. That's 400 gas. That could be a lot of roaches, or lings. Just too much tech, and none of it actually helps in the battle because he hits you before any of that completes. Not to mention his push was super late because he had somewhat poor macro (id say he played worse than you, but thats not relevant). Panicking and taking 4 gas like that wasn't a good idea. You should've taken your third gas a little quicker, but if you had 3 gas you would've been just fine against that. If anything, take 4 gas. When you get your lair going, you want 3 gas going with mass roach/ling. If you hit your larva injects well, you'll have plenty of lings. You are well and established, you really should've made some spines against such a late attack. But, it's normally not the case that the toss macros that poorly and attacks that late. Really, your unit production and macro are just too far behind. There's not really too much else to say. You tech a little too hard, which cuts your unit production too much. You could benefit from making overlords more on time rather than too early, and you take your third gas a little too late. You first 2 gas are late too, but I don't think that's an issue because you are taking 2 gas at the same time, late, as opposed to 1 gas early 1 gas late like I prefer, or 2 gas midway like some pros do. That's all there is to it. I dont need to see the battle. You should be way closer to maxed, instead you both have the exact same supply because you tech too hard and took third gas too late. Id say your 2nd gas was a little on the late side, not important. Hit those larva injects better by having queens out better (i just make the 3rd queen when 3rd hatches, but the 4th queen for 4th hatch should be on time). He just had a higher army supply than you, and it should be the complete opposite against a FFE when going fast third. If you know he's going mass gateway, you should've made pure units, and you should've even added spines. Creep spread would've helped too. Creep is great against forcefields. Look how open the map is right outside your base, and instead you chose to engage in the choke. It's not the worst game. I think you played fairly well, and it's quite obnoxious to lose to mass sentry like that. You were definitely better than that opponent imo, and it was quite exploitative what he did. But that doesn't change the fact that he actually had a way bigger army than youdid, and that didn't make sense. On a side note, sentries are slow, and spines uproot and re-root just as fast as they move. If you know he's going sentries like that, spines are great until you have a huge army to overwhelm and kill him when he finally retreats and he can't do anything because he is forced to either die retreating or run into spines. | ||
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Vicarios
56 Posts
a) How to best react to a block with Armory? ( gas pool/ if possible hatch somewhere else? ) b) How to best place spine crawler @ arid plateau ... i really like the map because u can ex like hell, but the early game is always very rough for me, or better, chaotic. replay here a replay how i reacted to armory, and put down 2 spines ( which weren't great ). Rep is not neccessary to answer the question i think. Thx | ||
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