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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
This is only my two cent advice, but early roaches fixed a lot of problems for me (low master): you can deal with helions more easily, and by putting pressure back on the terran, you get map control back and force him to reveal his tech (especially his banshees, if any). Actually I am not so sure why people stick to zergling defense nowadays that mass helions strats are common.
to give one possible quick bo (but there are many variations, more or less all in):
16 hatch
17 pool
17 gas
@ 100% pool: 2 queens and 1 set of zergling to deny scouting and go poke at his front.
go for roach warren at 27. make roaches from 28 to 44 food (i.e. 8 roaches) go pressure with 6 or so, leave 2 at home, if you are afraid he will counter with helions. Don't necessarily commit too much with roaches.
44 zergling speed (at 100 gas)
take a third asap and drone.
(and from there you can transition to mass lings with upgrades easily).
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On January 08 2012 19:50 Chinesewonder wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 19:46 yakitate304 wrote:On January 08 2012 19:16 Chinesewonder wrote:
I need help so bad in ZvT. I'm in low masters and I have no idea how to deal with hellions. Literally every game I lose to 8 hellions which just run past my spines and kill everything. Even if I don't die to it, most terrans just follow it up with a tank push and I lose. Do I just need more spines and more queens? I usually get about 1 extra queen and 2 spines + evo chamber to block, but I just don't know what to do. Also when do I want to get my 3rd? I feel if I want till I get mutas to retake map control, its just so late as most terrans are already building their third in some cases. Please help, I just don't know what to do. The way I play ZvT is a very slightly modified aXa's ZvT build. I use 2 evo chambers and 2 spines to make a decent wall at my natural (1 spine w/ the evo chambers at the front, other spine near the mineral line where Hellions would have to go by to get into the main). As the build suggests, I make a fair amount of Speedlings. I keep them out of my base, and make sure to position a few so I'm prepared as soon as the Hellions get out onto the map. I like to try to trap the Hellions at my ramp by flanking them with Zerglings just as they try to enter. Queens + Spine +1/4 of Lings attacking from inside your base, 3/4 of Lings from the other side. I find that I'm able to stuff most ~5-10 Hellion plays with or without Blue Flame, and usually come out ahead because I also have a macro hatch, 4 queens (3 for injects, 1 for creep - plus useful defense for when Banshees come out). It's not the most economical/refined way of playing but once you have map control with your lings you can drone pretty freely while teching up to Lair for Infestor or Muta, and taking a third and fairly fast fourth. So you rely on catching the hellions with lings? Buildign that many lings early on would require a huge economy investment, and a good terran player should be able to micro his hellions away. I'm just lost because when the hellions just sit outside my base, I have no idea what they are doing. Banshees, tank push, I'm just really lost
Not necessarily catching them. In general if they don't rush in where I can catch them, I just try to keep them occupied with my Speedlings without really engaging them. While that's going on I'm getting my Melee/Carapace upgrades, Lair tech and getting in a few larva cycles of Drones. Obviously it's ideal to hold with as few units as possible, but Hellions vs. Lings is such a volatile fight, and having even 3-4 Blue Flame Hellions breach your base can be severely damaging. As such, I am willing to sacrifice my economy a bit in order to stuff the Hellions. I'd rather have 30 Drones and 24 Lings, and be safe, than have 37 Drones and 10 Lings but then lose all my Lings and a third of my Drones to their first push.
Right when the Slayers team made Hellions popular I started doing a Roach-heavy opening style in ZvT for about 3 weeks, but I didn't like the lack of map control and the early gas expenditure (delays Mutas), even though it is a more larva-efficient way to hold Hellion pressure.
Granted, I'm only a high platinum zerg so my advice probably isn't that helpful. Just my two cents though.
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hi guys!
I have a z v z question. I am low master. I usually open 14 gas 14 pool, and then depending on what the opponent is doing, I go for speedling expand or baneling war.
Recently, I have had trouble against speedling expand. When I see that, I usually leave 3 guys on gas, and go for banelings. But as players are getting better, they defend pretty well against banelings with zerglings only, by constantly harassing, to the point that I can't ever really make banelings, and in the end lose.
What can I do to make a good baneling attack against speedling expand. where do I morph my banelings? do I show my zerglings before banelings are made, or not? should I pressure him (before baneling) or not? should I morph all my baneling at once? or 2 banelings first, and then 4 or 5 more?
any tips more than welcome
thanks!
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Interested in messing around with Zerg, but I feel like I need a tool bag of builds to begin. I'm not sure which ones I should work on. I think 14/14 and 15 Hatch are both staples. I'll be using 8 pool when I'm angry. I don't know whatelse I should use though. Can anyone post some build orders that every zerg should know? Thanks.
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On January 09 2012 06:50 Macpo wrote:hi guys! I have a z v z question. I am low master. I usually open 14 gas 14 pool, and then depending on what the opponent is doing, I go for speedling expand or baneling war. Recently, I have had trouble against speedling expand. When I see that, I usually leave 3 guys on gas, and go for banelings. But as players are getting better, they defend pretty well against banelings with zerglings only, by constantly harassing, to the point that I can't ever really make banelings, and in the end lose. What can I do to make a good baneling attack against speedling expand. where do I morph my banelings? do I show my zerglings before banelings are made, or not? should I pressure him (before baneling) or not? should I morph all my baneling at once? or 2 banelings first, and then 4 or 5 more? any tips more than welcome thanks!
* First of all, you should take an expand as well and THEN baneling bust. Just go speedling expand, leave one in gas, nest when 50g and another one in gas. You only need two in gas, not three. If you do it on one base it's more of an allin. If you do it on two base you aren't as behind.
* They shouldn't be able to defend with zergling only to be honest. You are probably not protecting your banelings with enough lings.
* Morph 2 banelings at a time, preferably outside of any overlord vision and as close to the opponent as possible.
* You can pressure before banes. Every game is different. Scout and act accordingly.
* Before you attack, send one ling to check if he has banelings or not, very important. You don't want to send all of your lings into one baneling. Same thing applies when going up his main (if he's on two bases of course).
On January 09 2012 07:10 Zawmb wrote:
Interested in messing around with Zerg, but I feel like I need a tool bag of builds to begin. I'm not sure which ones I should work on. I think 14/14 and 15 Hatch are both staples. I'll be using 8 pool when I'm angry. I don't know whatelse I should use though. Can anyone post some build orders that every zerg should know? Thanks.
Search this thread.
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Quick question out there. I just recently started playing zerg so bear with me.
Usually a zvt build will tell you to get 32 drones for optimal saturation, after which you get some kind of tech up and take a third when mutas pop or some other thing.
My question is, should I litterally stop drone production at 32 drone count? Because if all extractors are taken(ice fisher build), then mineral income will only be 16 drones since all others are required for gas or extractors.
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So i have been having a hard time dealing with Terran mech vs zerg (BF hellion, tank, thor, viking) so i thought id come to TL and seek advice.
So i have a few general questions regarding mech,
scouting meching terran, going beyond sacking an overlord or sending in an overseer, what are some general indicators that a terran is going to mech that you can pick up on before the terran actually goes mech?
Then as zerg what should be a general game plan for dealing with mech, not just a build order but the strategy throughout the different stages in the game, i know this may be very situational im sorry, any advice will help though
Also what unit mixtures, in an ideal sense, would be optimal to get vs mech terran, ive been opening ling bane muta, unless there is really heavy hellion pressure then i go roach. What usually ends up happening is i lose map control to the hellions and then i get scout with my mutas at which point the thors end up forcing me into roach.
so would reactive roaches with ovi drop or nydus be a good choice to make while either all inning or teching to broods and taking expansions across the map?
sorry if this has been discussed before i couldn't find much on the topic so i thought i could try and get help here and maybe start a good discussion
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On January 09 2012 17:08 SacredSystem wrote:
So i have been having a hard time dealing with Terran mech vs zerg (BF hellion, tank, thor, viking) so i thought id come to TL and seek advice.
So i have a few general questions regarding mech,
scouting meching terran, going beyond sacking an overlord or sending in an overseer, what are some general indicators that a terran is going to mech that you can pick up on before the terran actually goes mech?
Then as zerg what should be a general game plan for dealing with mech, not just a build order but the strategy throughout the different stages in the game, i know this may be very situational im sorry, any advice will help though
Also what unit mixtures, in an ideal sense, would be optimal to get vs mech terran, ive been opening ling bane muta, unless there is really heavy hellion pressure then i go roach. What usually ends up happening is i lose map control to the hellions and then i get scout with my mutas at which point the thors end up forcing me into roach.
so would reactive roaches with ovi drop or nydus be a good choice to make while either all inning or teching to broods and taking expansions across the map?
sorry if this has been discussed before i couldn't find much on the topic so i thought i could try and get help here and maybe start a good discussion
Hello, dealing with mech ZvT is actually my "strong point", simple way to put it, I see a guy is going mech I smile.
First, you have to scout with an ov, the other signs are of course a low marine count when you scout the front, even if some terrans will make a tank marine helion push before really switching to full mech, using the marines they produced for defense.
Ling baneling muta is suicide, really, it isnt cost effective at all, except maybe at the highest level of play, but for me (mid master) it is NEVER an option vs mech, dont even think of copying Nestea's mass baneling vs thors in GSL, that was beautiful, but so fucking lucky, and vs a heavy thor helions composition.
As soon as i scout mech, my +1 defense was already on the way (I always do that ZvT, helped me a lot), I add a second evo chamber and a roach warren, but I'll avoid making too many roaches for now, just for defending vs helions (arrived at some points, on some wide open expand maps, you cant just defend with spines and speedlings, well, you can try, but one out of 3 games it could cost you the game so it's up to you to take the chance). I upgrade my roach attack on the evo and try to get the roach speed asap. Sorry if i cant get you any precise timings, but for me it's reactional, and it should be for you, ZvT isnt a match up where timings can be trusted imho. I throw an infestation pit, but only to build 3, 4 infestors, to contain helions if needed when is army is incoming or sieged not far from my base (often the guy will be scouting the front with helions, you catch them with fungals, and throw 8 12 lings at them if they're in tank range, they'll die, and will give your lings a lot more efficiency).
What i'm saying is the first mech push with 1 or 2 thors, 4 5 tanks and helions, it's a very bad idea to try to stop that with only roaches, you must be around 50/50 roach lings composition to take that out in a clean way, and control like a third of your lings and send them to the tanks, if your roaches are close enough, focus the tanks, it's all about the tanks, thors damage might be scary, but thors are manageable by the fact that they're slow and they dont have a good range, lots of games I lost because I always killed the helions / marines / thors but never killed the tanks, and they kept reinforcing, until it's 9 tanks in front of your base and you get crushed.
And roach burrow movement is just amazing, you cant base your whole gameplay around it, but even if the guy is cautious it will serve you in any game vs mech, btw burrowing on the way to his base to get the tanks unsieged made me win a shitload of games, and he wont scan all the way.
Drops are a good idea, but mostly on spread maps, like Shattered temple, there you can really drop efficiently, something simple like 2 overlords full of roaches in the main, focus the tech labs or an armory maybe, I'd advise not to waste too much time on the scvs, they got mules anyway -__-, tech labs will slow his army production quite a bit. And while the drop is making his army rush back to defend, burrow movement your main army to see if you can kill the tanks that usually stayed in the front, or you can also try massive drops if he's on the way to your base, the trade base scenario will be in your favor due to the speed of your army, and your overlord drops able to save all your drones if it's impossible for you to kill his army.
About late game, transition is up to you, I prefer broodlords, but ultras are an option, and they can be used in an harass fashion unlike broods, if he goes thor heavy, be sure to get the neural on your infestors and keep upgrading your roaches ALWAYS, it's the key to be efficient in a straight up fight vs mech, else you'll never get enough armies to kill the core of his. and when you're on broodlords, I often switch completely into air army, mass corruptors to corrupt thors, and to get the vikings back with help of infestors of course, but being half air half ground can be tricky. Be very careful for helions drops with this composition too, spines in your main are a good idea, or even one infestor to gain time for you drones to run.
Hell, I'm writting way too much sorry, hard for me to be concise, my bad :p, hope it helped
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On January 09 2012 07:56 Catgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 06:50 Macpo wrote:hi guys! I have a z v z question. I am low master. I usually open 14 gas 14 pool, and then depending on what the opponent is doing, I go for speedling expand or baneling war. Recently, I have had trouble against speedling expand. When I see that, I usually leave 3 guys on gas, and go for banelings. But as players are getting better, they defend pretty well against banelings with zerglings only, by constantly harassing, to the point that I can't ever really make banelings, and in the end lose. What can I do to make a good baneling attack against speedling expand. where do I morph my banelings? do I show my zerglings before banelings are made, or not? should I pressure him (before baneling) or not? should I morph all my baneling at once? or 2 banelings first, and then 4 or 5 more? any tips more than welcome thanks! * First of all, you should take an expand as well and THEN baneling bust. Just go speedling expand, leave one in gas, nest when 50g and another one in gas. You only need two in gas, not three. If you do it on one base it's more of an allin. If you do it on two base you aren't as behind. * They shouldn't be able to defend with zergling only to be honest. You are probably not protecting your banelings with enough lings. * Morph 2 banelings at a time, preferably outside of any overlord vision and as close to the opponent as possible. * You can pressure before banes. Every game is different. Scout and act accordingly. * Before you attack, send one ling to check if he has banelings or not, very important. You don't want to send all of your lings into one baneling. Same thing applies when going up his main (if he's on two bases of course).
Um, actually, you can defend with just Zergling only. 2 queens and 1-2 well located spines can do extremely well if you insta target banes. Then you can use a few lings to counter while doing so. If you trade favorably you are actually ahead because of the gas investment of banes.
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Um, actually, you can defend with just Zergling only. 2 queens and 1-2 well located spines can do extremely well if you insta target banes. Then you can use a few lings to counter while doing so. If you trade favorably you are actually ahead because of the gas investment of banes.
Sure, you could probably defend it with pure lings without a spine if your micro is really really good. All I'm saying is, if you commit to the attack heavily I really think you need banelings.
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Low dia here, freshly switched to Zerg, and I'm having a lot of trouble with 4 specific things:
1) (2-part question): In ZvT, how should I scout for a 2 port banshee? I understand that an early 2 gas and no expo pretty clearly broadcasts this, but if I can't get a drone in early (fast walloff) is there a reliable way to at least get a notion that it's coming? And as a follow-up, what is the appropriate reaction if I miss it until I see the first two banshees coming at my base?
2) In ZvP, if it is fairly clear a heavy 2-base gateway timing is coming at me (6 gate or 7gate allin, ovie spots the gateways before they morph) what is the appropriate reaction given that the rest of the game has been standard up till then? Is it possible to hold this off with a ling/muta tech path, or do I need to have roaches and hydras out? (3-ish bases, good drone saturation.)
3) In ZvP, if I haven't been able to stop the 3rd from going up, and I expect a standard 3-base deathball push to be coming at me (presumably before I can get BLs up) is it possible to hold it with ling/muta? Or is a more standard roach/hydra/corruptor ball more reliable, given that my micro is diamond-level, by which I mean not particularly immaculate? And should I try to take a 5th if I think the game is going in that direction? When I've tried to hold it with ling/muta in the past typically the lings evaporate to colossus/FF and then the mutas melt to stalkers. I guess a more succinct way to phrase this question is, "If I think the game is heading in that direction, what direction should I head in if I'm not looking to be gimmicky?"
4) In ZvZ, what is a good tell for the weird allin I've been seeing lately, wherein a zerg will only take his natural for larva, stockpile gas, and essentially make a ton of banelings all at once and try to kill you with them, before the 7 minute mark? (I may need to grab a replay to adequately explain this build if it's not actually a normal allin). And as a followup, what's a good way to deal with it once I have a reasonable idea it's coming?
Thanks for your help!
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On January 09 2012 17:08 SacredSystem wrote:
So i have been having a hard time dealing with Terran mech vs zerg...
Some signs of a player going mech are low marine counts, very heavy hellion openings, banshee openers often transition into mech plays especially if they don't do so much damage that you are basically dead.
The key to defeating mech is to get a roaring economy and a quick third and possible fourth with a macro hatch, mech can't do very effective early attacks, and it moves very slow, as long as you keep vision you can pump enough roaches to crush most mech attacks before terran can max, if you can't then you aren't macroing well enough (IE: not hitting injects / overlords)
If they wait until maxed your economy is pretty good and roaches are quick enough to counter attack while you make spines and start broodlords.
More specifically here is how I stop mech in mid masters. I open 15h/16p/18g I defend with 3 queens and 1 spine, Hellion openers are very common, if i ever see more than 4 hellions alive at one time I make a roach warren, if not then I continue to tech towards spire and skip warren unless I scout mech, once lair finishes I run an overseer through the base, if I see 3 factories or more I make a roach warren at this poin.
So you've identified mech:
make 6-10 roaches for defense and take a third and fourth as soon as possible.
make a fourth queen, spread creep to your bases, continue to scout for a possible push using roaches and lings, try not to make many units.
Try to hit around 80-90 drones with 6-8 gas before making many more units, throw in 4-5 roaches here and there when you see more hellions active on the map.
Tech to hive quickly while droning and getting attack and armor upgrades for roaches after +2 ranged I like to start getting melee for my eventual ling broodlord infestor.
Around 150 supply make a spire if you haven't before scouting mech
Max on roaches and get ready to counter, try to deny thirds and fourths from terran if possible
If terran hasn't attacked by this point get drop so you can sac some of the roaches cost effectively
If terran attacks get a good flank on his side of the map and you should be able to remax on roaches and kill him if you did a lot of damage, OR make 10-20 more drones and 10-20 spines with some of your current drones while taking a fifth and making around 10 broodlords.
Once you have done this you basically just want to outmultitask, poop creep on expansions, burrow units to deny expos, harass with drops, and use broodlords and infestors primarily for defense / big attacks in the middle until the terran player has died.
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On January 10 2012 02:30 Vega62a wrote:
Low dia here, freshly switched to Zerg, and I'm having a lot of trouble with 4 specific things:
1) (2-part question): In ZvT, how should I scout for a 2 port banshee? I understand that an early 2 gas and no expo pretty clearly broadcasts this, but if I can't get a drone in early (fast walloff) is there a reliable way to at least get a notion that it's coming? And as a follow-up, what is the appropriate reaction if I miss it until I see the first two banshees coming at my base?
2) In ZvP, if it is fairly clear a heavy 2-base gateway timing is coming at me (6 gate or 7gate allin, ovie spots the gateways before they morph) what is the appropriate reaction given that the rest of the game has been standard up till then? Is it possible to hold this off with a ling/muta tech path, or do I need to have roaches and hydras out? (3-ish bases, good drone saturation.)
3) In ZvP, if I haven't been able to stop the 3rd from going up, and I expect a standard 3-base deathball push to be coming at me (presumably before I can get BLs up) is it possible to hold it with ling/muta? Or is a more standard roach/hydra/corruptor ball more reliable, given that my micro is diamond-level, by which I mean not particularly immaculate? And should I try to take a 5th if I think the game is going in that direction? When I've tried to hold it with ling/muta in the past typically the lings evaporate to colossus/FF and then the mutas melt to stalkers. I guess a more succinct way to phrase this question is, "If I think the game is heading in that direction, what direction should I head in?"
4) In ZvZ, what is a good tell for the weird allin I've been seeing lately, wherein a zerg will only take his natural for larva, stockpile gas, and essentially make a ton of banelings all at once and try to kill you with them, before the 7 minute mark? (I may need to grab a replay to adequately explain this build if it's not actually a normal allin). And as a followup, what's a good way to deal with it once I have a reasonable idea it's coming?
Thanks for your help!
1. Usually three supply depot wall at the front and few marines at the 6-7 minute mark will indicate a 2 port banshee build. The best reaction is to make around three spores at base and pump queens.
2. Mutas are a very expensive harass units and you need combat units (mainly lings and roaches) to hold gateway pushes. So no do not invest into mutas unless you alreaedy have a solid ling count up. Two gases pump roaches and rest lings is the best response IMO.
3. The thing is with muta ling is to prevent the deathball from containing colossus and to make his army size smaller by harassing him, delaying the third and doing damage. When the push comes you should be ahead in upgrades and have a sizeable force and a good remax that can crush his force.
4. If he masses you with banelings you need roaches and spines, he will try to aim for your group of roaches so if you can spread the roaches out and use sim city to funnel banelings in. Generally in ZvZ you want to always check on him with a ling and keep an ovie around his mineral line to check his saturation. If he has less drones than you hes making units.
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United States2095 Posts
On January 10 2012 02:30 Vega62a wrote:
Low dia here, freshly switched to Zerg, and I'm having a lot of trouble with 4 specific things:
1) (2-part question): In ZvT, how should I scout for a 2 port banshee? I understand that an early 2 gas and no expo pretty clearly broadcasts this, but if I can't get a drone in early (fast walloff) is there a reliable way to at least get a notion that it's coming? And as a follow-up, what is the appropriate reaction if I miss it until I see the first two banshees coming at my base?
2) In ZvP, if it is fairly clear a heavy 2-base gateway timing is coming at me (6 gate or 7gate allin, ovie spots the gateways before they morph) what is the appropriate reaction given that the rest of the game has been standard up till then? Is it possible to hold this off with a ling/muta tech path, or do I need to have roaches and hydras out? (3-ish bases, good drone saturation.)
3) In ZvP, if I haven't been able to stop the 3rd from going up, and I expect a standard 3-base deathball push to be coming at me (presumably before I can get BLs up) is it possible to hold it with ling/muta? Or is a more standard roach/hydra/corruptor ball more reliable, given that my micro is diamond-level, by which I mean not particularly immaculate? And should I try to take a 5th if I think the game is going in that direction? When I've tried to hold it with ling/muta in the past typically the lings evaporate to colossus/FF and then the mutas melt to stalkers. I guess a more succinct way to phrase this question is, "If I think the game is heading in that direction, what direction should I head in if I'm not looking to be gimmicky?"
4) In ZvZ, what is a good tell for the weird allin I've been seeing lately, wherein a zerg will only take his natural for larva, stockpile gas, and essentially make a ton of banelings all at once and try to kill you with them, before the 7 minute mark? (I may need to grab a replay to adequately explain this build if it's not actually a normal allin). And as a followup, what's a good way to deal with it once I have a reasonable idea it's coming?
Thanks for your help!
1. Overlords flying around the edges. You should note a later expansion, and always try and check if the reactor is still on the factory. Lings running to the front of the wall is important as well. Having overlords around your base should generally give you time to somewhat prepare and a 3rd queen is generally helpful to get early.
2. Muta ling isn't optimal against this. Roach / Ling is a good choice or Roach / Ling / Hydra. Depending on the timing and what you've opened with should decide which you go on to. I prefer 4 hatcheries going roach / ling.
3. Sure its possible to hold with ling/muta however generally with that composition you want to counter his base if he moves out. Taking a 5th doesn't hurt.
4. Roaches, or banes + a spine + queens of your own.
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Hi Sheth!
Question: What's the best way to play against the heavy marine no tank TvZ style? Roach/Ling/Bane and leave some units behind for drops? Infestor/Ling? I feel like Muta/Ling/Bane does not leave me enough gas for banes, and they just throw up turrets and my mutas become a wasted investment.
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On January 10 2012 03:01 Liquid`Sheth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 02:30 Vega62a wrote:
Low dia here, freshly switched to Zerg, and I'm having a lot of trouble with 4 specific things:
1) (2-part question): In ZvT, how should I scout for a 2 port banshee? I understand that an early 2 gas and no expo pretty clearly broadcasts this, but if I can't get a drone in early (fast walloff) is there a reliable way to at least get a notion that it's coming? And as a follow-up, what is the appropriate reaction if I miss it until I see the first two banshees coming at my base?
2) In ZvP, if it is fairly clear a heavy 2-base gateway timing is coming at me (6 gate or 7gate allin, ovie spots the gateways before they morph) what is the appropriate reaction given that the rest of the game has been standard up till then? Is it possible to hold this off with a ling/muta tech path, or do I need to have roaches and hydras out? (3-ish bases, good drone saturation.)
3) In ZvP, if I haven't been able to stop the 3rd from going up, and I expect a standard 3-base deathball push to be coming at me (presumably before I can get BLs up) is it possible to hold it with ling/muta? Or is a more standard roach/hydra/corruptor ball more reliable, given that my micro is diamond-level, by which I mean not particularly immaculate? And should I try to take a 5th if I think the game is going in that direction? When I've tried to hold it with ling/muta in the past typically the lings evaporate to colossus/FF and then the mutas melt to stalkers. I guess a more succinct way to phrase this question is, "If I think the game is heading in that direction, what direction should I head in if I'm not looking to be gimmicky?"
4) In ZvZ, what is a good tell for the weird allin I've been seeing lately, wherein a zerg will only take his natural for larva, stockpile gas, and essentially make a ton of banelings all at once and try to kill you with them, before the 7 minute mark? (I may need to grab a replay to adequately explain this build if it's not actually a normal allin). And as a followup, what's a good way to deal with it once I have a reasonable idea it's coming?
Thanks for your help! 1. Overlords flying around the edges. You should note a later expansion, and always try and check if the reactor is still on the factory. Lings running to the front of the wall is important as well. Having overlords around your base should generally give you time to somewhat prepare and a 3rd queen is generally helpful to get early. 2. Muta ling isn't optimal against this. Roach / Ling is a good choice or Roach / Ling / Hydra. Depending on the timing and what you've opened with should decide which you go on to. I prefer 4 hatcheries going roach / ling. 3. Sure its possible to hold with ling/muta however generally with that composition you want to counter his base if he moves out. Taking a 5th doesn't hurt. 4. Roaches, or banes + a spine + queens of your own.
Edit: I got a reply from Sheth <3 I have a few followup questions for anyone to answer:
1. I should be able to spot it with a decent success rate with that, barring any proxy-port silliness. So 3 queens + creep spread + maybe 2-3 spores/base should be enough to hold this off, if I control it decently, is that about right?
2. When I try to do roach/ling against this, I usually get FF'd and cut up, which means I'm probably doing something wrong. Based on what you said, I think it's probably a macro issue, my simply not having enough units and not engaging far enough out into the map for reinforcements to be valuable. Are setting up good surrounds absolutely critical to survival, or just good for being effective?
3. So the idea would be to counter, remove as much of his economy and production as possible, and then engage him around the center of the map with good surrounds and a maxed ling/muta army, is that accurate?
4. Now that you say that, I understand that banes+spine+queens should have been a perfectly acceptable counter, and I was really just taken off-guard at how early it hit. There were about 10-12 banelings, which I could have easily killed with good spine / queen placement and sending pairs of banelings in at a time, plus using my own forces to counter his lings.
Thanks for your help Sheth and Olsson! <3
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United States2095 Posts
On January 10 2012 03:08 Flonomenalz wrote:
Hi Sheth!
Question: What's the best way to play against the heavy marine no tank TvZ style? Roach/Ling/Bane and leave some units behind for drops? Infestor/Ling? I feel like Muta/Ling/Bane does not leave me enough gas for banes, and they just throw up turrets and my mutas become a wasted investment.
Infestor / Ling
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Thanks to Catgroove and Flonomenalz for answering my questions
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Okay, so, I've come to realize that turtle t/p is a HUGE weakness of mine. It's like, I attempt to play standard, but, I guess the way I generally delay lair to go for big ol' 200/200 timings is an absolutely horrible way to play against turtle t/p. Further, I feel extremely vulnerable going for quick hive into tier 3 units.
Is there anything I can do vs this ridiculously strong style!?
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EPT
