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- Roach Warren & Evo Chamber before Lair. I had too much excess minerals waiting for the rocks to go down on my 3rd. Should I have built a macro hatch instead?
- I defended with Roach/Ling. Should I have gone for infestors as well? Watching the replay, there doesn't seem to be enough time to get them. Should I have gone Lair quicker?
I can't really tell what my mistakes were, if someone can point them out for me that would be fantastic.
When opening Leenock style ZvT (52 drones mass ling and third when spire or somewhere close) if the T takes a third at the same time as me, is it better to do everything to try to destroy it or just drone up the third first then attack (or just harass).
That early third vs this opening seems so easy to kill so I'm not sure whether I should drone or just attack.
Not enough scouting. You did scout the Twilight Council eventually, but I thought scouting not only his main, but his natural would have helped. If you saw his front was producing/chrono'ing the upgrades, I think you can assume that he is going for a big attack timing that will definitly put on alot of damage - couple that with the Twilight and lack of gates, I would have thought Blink Stalker Timing attack. At that point, I would probably have cut drones and made more Ling/Roach.
Usually when I fight Protoss, I get double Evo Chambers (I actually get double evo's ZvT too) just to give my army a little more *oomph*. I think 1/1 against 2/0 would have been a lot more beneficial than you give it credit for.
Infestors would have been an alright choice. Another thing that you can try is sending a few lings out to scout around for Proxy Pylons. If you see them scattered, take them out and keep him pinned in his base.
I think the Roach/Ling was a good idea. I just feel like you could have used more.
On January 11 2012 01:39 nicke10 wrote: When opening Leenock style ZvT (52 drones mass ling and third when spire or somewhere close) if the T takes a third at the same time as me, is it better to do everything to try to destroy it or just drone up the third first then attack (or just harass).
That early third vs this opening seems so easy to kill so I'm not sure whether I should drone or just attack.
Either try and deny theres whilst establishing your own, or take a faster 4th than you normally would, and saturate that decently.
On January 11 2012 01:39 nicke10 wrote: When opening Leenock style ZvT (52 drones mass ling and third when spire or somewhere close) if the T takes a third at the same time as me, is it better to do everything to try to destroy it or just drone up the third first then attack (or just harass).
That early third vs this opening seems so easy to kill so I'm not sure whether I should drone or just attack.
Either try and deny theres whilst establishing your own, or take a faster 4th than you normally would, and saturate that decently.
I agree with Host-. Put pressure on and take a fourth.
I think the more important aspect of trying to deny his third is minimizing casualties to you're army. If you have to sacrifice you're entire force to kill it, I wouldn't say it's worth it, but don't just let him take a third without resistance.
I am having problems with builds that take map control early, but ought to turtle behind it. For example FFE DT opening seems to take no damage even when the DTs do absolutely nothing but morph in to Archons. Toss proceed to go blink stalkers and pinned me back with the combination of DT + blink stalker. The game was basically thrown when I was unable to stop him taking a fourth on the huge Tal'Darim map. My questions: -What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs -How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible. -How to punish fast techs.
On January 12 2012 03:03 Spec wrote: I am having problems with builds that take map control early, but ought to turtle behind it. For example FFE DT opening seems to take no damage even when the DTs do absolutely nothing but morph in to Archons. Toss proceed to go blink stalkers and pinned me back with the combination of DT + blink stalker. The game was basically thrown when I was unable to stop him taking a fourth on the huge Tal'Darim map. My questions: -What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs -How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible. -How to punish fast techs.
Speaking strictly from my level of play, this is what my responses are.
-What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs
Usually when I scout Dark Templar coming, I am on my way (or already have) lair tech. I usually morph in an overseer and leave them floating over each one of my bases, and leave Roaches there just to ward them off, or outright kill them.
-How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this question - I usually get drone saturation on my two bases, than throw down my three remaining gases as my Lair is coming online, and than expand if it's near 7 minutes. This is assuming they didn't FFE, since that is a different beast.
-How to punish fast techs.
Attack before they tech into it. There are definite ways to attack into certain techs, but attacking before a fast tech actually produces effectively is also a timing attack. If a Protoss is going two base fast colossus, you can attack them before the Colossus pops out, or fight the tech head on when it actually does. Take advantage of you're opponents weakness. Win games.
^ eh i wouldn't recommend zerg being aggressive. Blizzard has already stated that Zerg's only option when they have a lead or the opponent is teching/macro'ing too hard is to macro themselves. You could look at it as a design flaw, but it doesn't really matter. When the opponent is hardcore teching, like going 2 base colossus, take it as an opportunity to drone up unimpeeded and tech up yourself.
Any sort of 2 base army from toss will lose to 3 base roach/ling into mass speedroaches, so just work on denying toss' third. Of course there are maps like Entombed where you can't really deny toss' third if they have a few sentries, so you may be better off just going straight to broodlords.
I am having problems with builds that take map control early, but ought to turtle behind it. For example FFE DT opening seems to take no damage even when the DTs do absolutely nothing but morph in to Archons. Toss proceed to go blink stalkers and pinned me back with the combination of DT + blink stalker. The game was basically thrown when I was unable to stop him taking a fourth on the huge Tal'Darim map. My questions: -What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs -How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible. -How to punish fast techs.
Toss has no army when going DTs like that. If they are going FFE DT, you should have already gotten your third up. Just put spores down (you should've been putting spores down when seeing his high zealot count and 3 or 4 gas with your 2-3 sac'd overlords at the 7:00 mark). Since you know he won't be putting on heavy gateway pressure, just get lair and speedroaches.
If toss is on 2 base, and isn't getting his third, you can't really tech, and you should go for mass speedroach to hold his basically all-in desperation push he'll do (either because you trapped him, or because he chose to stay on 2 base). It doesn't really matter what he does, 3 base mass speedroach will just overwhelm a 2 base toss, so just overwhelm them. 200/200 speedroaches just crushes any unit composition from 2 base.
If toss is on 2 base, don't go deathball. You could go hydras or mutas, and both are actually great options to kill off a starving toss, but really, if toss is stuck on 2 base, you can kill him with mass speedroach. Mutas are a great way to deal with a toss stuck on 2 base though. But you definitely don't want to go hive or infestors.
Just lost to a FFE into 7 gate blink stalker all-in on Tal'Darim that I knew was coming but still couldn't hold.
- Roach Warren & Evo Chamber before Lair. I had too much excess minerals waiting for the rocks to go down on my 3rd. Should I have built a macro hatch instead?
Personally I just always go for that third that's right there to the side of your main (not the other one, too susceptible to cannon/warp-in/drop shenanigans), not that one rocked off. Not a big deal though, some pros take the rock one like you do too though.
Basically warp gate all-ins auto-win against a zerg who goes both fast third and lair. Don't get a lair until after you confirm that the opponent is not going warp gate all-in (he opened stargate, although still be wary of 6 gate vr, dts, etc). If you can't confirm it, or aren't sure, you'll need to mass roach/ling first until the protoss reveals his hand and you are sure you can hold and tech.
If you can tell he's going blink all-in (4 gas, lots of gateways, lots of stalkers) then I'd recommend getting a macro hatch with that 'extra time' you have. To hold a 6 gate +1 or 7 gate which cuts probes and only has 2 gas (none at natural), you need to stop droning at 8:00/65 supply/55 drones (all one and the same, if not work on your macro) and mass units 100%. Against blink all-ins you can afford a macro hatch and stop droning at maybe around 8:30-9:00 instead, but you still have to be careful.
Basically warp gate all-ins auto-win against a zerg who goes both fast third and lair. Don't get a lair until after you confirm that the opponent is not going warp gate all-in (he opened stargate, although still be wary of 6 gate vr, dts, etc). If you can't confirm it, or aren't sure, you'll need to mass roach/ling first until the protoss reveals his hand and you are sure you can hold and tech.
If you can tell he's going blink all-in (4 gas, lots of gateways, lots of stalkers) then I'd recommend getting a macro hatch with that 'extra time' you have. To hold a 6 gate +1 or 7 gate which cuts probes and only has 2 gas (none at natural), you need to stop droning at 8:00/65 supply/55 drones (all one and the same, if not work on your macro) and mass units 100%. Against blink all-ins you can afford a macro hatch and stop droning at maybe around 8:30-9:00 instead, but you still have to be careful.
I completely disagree with that. you can definitely defend a gateway allin while teching to t2 and having taking an early third before. of course you shouldnt go super fast lair at 40 supply or w/e. but definitely dont wait till you are sure there is no x gate allin coming. 7 gate +1 hits at 8:30 on larger maps, so i think you should stop a bit earlier than 8:00 with droning.
Also, if you dont get a lair and your opponent simply takes a third instead of attacking, its very difficult to proceed, as you will be far away from roachspeed / spire / pit.
On January 12 2012 03:03 Spec wrote: I am having problems with builds that take map control early, but ought to turtle behind it. For example FFE DT opening seems to take no damage even when the DTs do absolutely nothing but morph in to Archons. Toss proceed to go blink stalkers and pinned me back with the combination of DT + blink stalker. The game was basically thrown when I was unable to stop him taking a fourth on the huge Tal'Darim map. My questions: -What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs -How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible. -How to punish fast techs.
Speaking strictly from my level of play, this is what my responses are.
-What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs
Usually when I scout Dark Templar coming, I am on my way (or already have) lair tech. I usually morph in an overseer and leave them floating over each one of my bases, and leave Roaches there just to ward them off, or outright kill them.
-How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible.
I'm not really sure what you mean by this question - I usually get drone saturation on my two bases, than throw down my three remaining gases as my Lair is coming online, and than expand if it's near 7 minutes. This is assuming they didn't FFE, since that is a different beast.
-How to punish fast techs.
Attack before they tech into it. There are definite ways to attack into certain techs, but attacking before a fast tech actually produces effectively is also a timing attack. If a Protoss is going two base fast colossus, you can attack them before the Colossus pops out, or fight the tech head on when it actually does. Take advantage of you're opponents weakness. Win games.
GL!
For the Swarm,
Jitsu
Jitsu, thanks for answering. For the second part, I find that at some point the Zerg loses the capability to force trades effectively and any more aggression only lags your army behind when the big engagement comes. I basically need to know how many bases I need to support a healthy Hive tech army.
I found contradiction in your answers to the first and third answer. You said that one should have 3rd base + spores ready to defend against DTs. But in the third answer you suggest that I should attack before his Tech kicks in. I wish to know how to take advantage of an enemy teching. I found that simply defending against the tech is not enough; unlike Brood War, I'll just be behind in tech and probably equal in economy for a bit as I am forced to invest spores for his tech. I am aware that I can get a little economic advantage if I defend flawlessly, and it's probably the only useful thing in the case where he rushes tech, but I'm not sure what the best way to translate my advantage would be.
^ eh i wouldn't recommend zerg being aggressive. Blizzard has already stated that Zerg's only option when they have a lead or the opponent is teching/macro'ing too hard is to macro themselves. You could look at it as a design flaw, but it doesn't really matter. When the opponent is hardcore teching, like going 2 base colossus, take it as an opportunity to drone up unimpeeded and tech up yourself.
Any sort of 2 base army from toss will lose to 3 base roach/ling into mass speedroaches, so just work on denying toss' third. Of course there are maps like Entombed where you can't really deny toss' third if they have a few sentries, so you may be better off just going straight to broodlords.
I am having problems with builds that take map control early, but ought to turtle behind it. For example FFE DT opening seems to take no damage even when the DTs do absolutely nothing but morph in to Archons. Toss proceed to go blink stalkers and pinned me back with the combination of DT + blink stalker. The game was basically thrown when I was unable to stop him taking a fourth on the huge Tal'Darim map. My questions: -What are the acceptable responses to Mid game DTs -How many gases do I need before I know I need to start my own deathball when pressuring is basically impossible. -How to punish fast techs.
Toss has no army when going DTs like that. If they are going FFE DT, you should have already gotten your third up. Just put spores down (you should've been putting spores down when seeing his high zealot count and 3 or 4 gas with your 2-3 sac'd overlords at the 7:00 mark). Since you know he won't be putting on heavy gateway pressure, just get lair and speedroaches.
If toss is on 2 base, and isn't getting his third, you can't really tech, and you should go for mass speedroach to hold his basically all-in desperation push he'll do (either because you trapped him, or because he chose to stay on 2 base). It doesn't really matter what he does, 3 base mass speedroach will just overwhelm a 2 base toss, so just overwhelm them. 200/200 speedroaches just crushes any unit composition from 2 base.
If toss is on 2 base, don't go deathball. You could go hydras or mutas, and both are actually great options to kill off a starving toss, but really, if toss is stuck on 2 base, you can kill him with mass speedroach. Mutas are a great way to deal with a toss stuck on 2 base though. But you definitely don't want to go hive or infestors.
Belial, thanks for responding. I've taken the aggression philosophy for Zerg recently and I guess you think it's fundamentally whack. I am fine with the turtling way and building a deathball of my own. But, most maps don't allow an easily defended 4th and I hate to deal with protoss pushes quite a lot when they're capable of multiprong attacks with warp prism, zealots, or DTs. Do you think spore+spines is the best way of keeping the expansions under pressure? Is there really nothing I can do if I see a protoss going down 3 tech trees at once?
I think you are looking for an X answer to a Y problem. When I play Zerg, I don't look at one answer that ultimatly kills what my opponent is doing. I look at various ways that make my opponent weak. A way to highlight this is counters to Protoss FFE. Against a FFE, you can either take a quick third, or do a Roach/Ling all in. Both, for me, work rather effectively.
Now if I scout his front with a ling, and see a Zealot and a Sentry with the cannons, I probably won't Roach/Ling all-in - maybe I will take a third, tech to Lair, get muta's.
Zerg has the ability to morph on the fly into whatever counter is appropriate and do whatever they want to win a game multiple ways. Is you're opponent going fast Colossus? Tech to Spire and get Corrupter's while holding his army back, or attack him with a sizable army before his Colo's get out. Two completely different ways to handle the same situation effectively.
So, I think the summarize:
Zerg responses aren't A to counter A, and B to counter B. Zerg responses could be A, B, and C to counter D. If a Terran goes One Rax Gasless Expand with a bunker at his natural, why would you want to take a third when you can just shoot out a round of lings and go kill him?
On January 10 2012 15:43 nonsequitur wrote: Just lost to a FFE into 7 gate blink stalker all-in on Tal'Darim that I knew was coming but still couldn't hold.
- Roach Warren & Evo Chamber before Lair. I had too much excess minerals waiting for the rocks to go down on my 3rd. Should I have built a macro hatch instead?
- I defended with Roach/Ling. Should I have gone for infestors as well? Watching the replay, there doesn't seem to be enough time to get them. Should I have gone Lair quicker?
I can't really tell what my mistakes were, if someone can point them out for me that would be fantastic.
Thanks!
Man, I don't know if it's the "right" thing to do but it has been working for me a lot lately, and that is building a macro hatch almost as soon as I can afford it. My ZvP was on a horrible slide (losing 90% of my games) and this thread is full of my questions and bitching. Then I started to adopt a much, much more aggressive model of play in which I made it my absolute goal to get as many drones as needed for 3 bases while prepping an army (i.e. take a break around 50 supply and start pumping units to prepare for the timing push).
The macro hatch has helped me hold off 2-base timing pushes immensely. Prior to this strat, I was *just* on the low end of having enough units to hold - or - I was *just* barely holding, and taking more losses than I should have. With the macro hatch I can pump out more units much faster, and drone harder prior and after the attack. On Tal'Darim I'll get a macro hatch right beside the rocks while I wait to take them down. Then my "3rd" - which at this point is the 4th hatch goes right where the rocks were. Within a minute I've got a macro hatch and a 3rd. 4 hatches total.
My rule of thumb has been (as suggested to me by others in this thread) to avoid lair until after one of two things happens:
1. I hold off the 2-base aggression with roach/ling (or spores/queens if necessary) 2. I have over 100 supply
Then I'll get lair. Not a second before.
Such a simple thing (as well as Gerbil's 12 pool build) has helped me more than I thought it would. I am now on an 18 game win streak and finally feeling comfortable ZvP.
vs Protoss i think i always overeact when i scout a stargate (fe or normal 1 base expand as well).. i always build spore crawler, often 2 for base, 1 in the mineral line and 1 near the hatch, and as well a pair more queens.. what should i do if i see only 1 stargate? are spore crawler really necessary or 1-2 more queens are enough?
On January 10 2012 15:43 nonsequitur wrote: Just lost to a FFE into 7 gate blink stalker all-in on Tal'Darim that I knew was coming but still couldn't hold.
- Roach Warren & Evo Chamber before Lair. I had too much excess minerals waiting for the rocks to go down on my 3rd. Should I have built a macro hatch instead?
- I defended with Roach/Ling. Should I have gone for infestors as well? Watching the replay, there doesn't seem to be enough time to get them. Should I have gone Lair quicker?
I can't really tell what my mistakes were, if someone can point them out for me that would be fantastic.
Thanks!
CricketStarcraft (Youtube caster/commentator and Masters level Zerg) actually posted a video about this EXACT strategy by protoss 3 days ago. Seemed really useful!
is it me or are terran dropping like crazy nowadays? I havent played for over a week and today, all 4/5 mass dropped on me. Btw, this is on the na server against top diamond/low master players
I dont play Zerg but have a questino about facing Zerg---
I see Creep getting spread so easily, I dont usually dedicate time to killing it. I figure it'll just go down again, but then I thought of something---
Creep keeps spreading because the creep tumors make more tumors... so, if you make an attack on the edges of creep, all the tumors that were going to make more tumrs are dead.... right? Therefore, they need a queen to remake all the tumors in the area, therefore making it a really good idea to get up there and take out the outter tumors.
Am I right here? Or, if a tumor dies, can the tumor behind it remake it or something? Is this a good strategy?>
"Alternatively, each creep tumor may create a single additional creep tumor, using the same build time but no energy cost. This changes the tumor's appearance."
Basically if the creep tumor looks like it has 3 little eyes, if you kill that one, he wont be able to spawn creep anymore, and has to lay down a new creep tumor..
"Alternatively, each creep tumor may create a single additional creep tumor, using the same build time but no energy cost. This changes the tumor's appearance."
Basically if the creep tumor looks like it has 3 little eyes, if you kill that one, he wont be able to spawn creep anymore, and has to lay down a new creep tumor..
Correct, only the last creep tumour in that chain can produce another tumour. So if you kill the last tumour made they cant make anymore. Most zergs make a extra queen to spread creep so generally have like 5 chains going on at once. I quite like it when terrans scan tumours as thats a mule they are not getting
On January 12 2012 20:25 MooSlapper wrote: I dont play Zerg but have a questino about facing Zerg---
I see Creep getting spread so easily, I dont usually dedicate time to killing it. I figure it'll just go down again, but then I thought of something---
Creep keeps spreading because the creep tumors make more tumors... so, if you make an attack on the edges of creep, all the tumors that were going to make more tumrs are dead.... right? Therefore, they need a queen to remake all the tumors in the area, therefore making it a really good idea to get up there and take out the outter tumors.
Am I right here? Or, if a tumor dies, can the tumor behind it remake it or something? Is this a good strategy?>
Kill creep. You're only doing yourself a huge disservice by not doing so. The ability to see the ENTIRE map is really useful for zerg. Not to mention the fact that creep gives speed boosts to our units. So, if you attack on creep, you may be faced with a sick ol' surround and end up dead because of it.
EPT
