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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On January 02 2012 03:18 Host- wrote:
Whats the best way to deal with a Terran throwing up a Bunker close to your nat prior to a 15 hatch finishing. The Terran has 1/2 marines rallied to it. This seems to do way more damage to me than it should and also throws me of my "game".
Pulling 4-5 drones doesn't really seem to accomplish anything. At the point when this happens lings are either just starting or halfway done.
if this happens i just pull like half of my drones an kill it it does seem to throw off my macro a little maybe but feeling confident that you can pull ahead is the key so shutting down harassing with hellions or catching them an killing them with lings or banes will level out the playing feild
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14 hatch has been proven to be better than 16 or 15 hatch.
And to hold against 14/14 ling/bane all-ins, I just go 14hatch/15pool/14gas. Bane nest when pool pops, and I get 4-6 lings and a spine at natural, then queen down there. If he hasn't expanded yet, I get a 2nd spine, and make pure units. Have to morph banes immediately. Then just micro well, and maybe even add another spine if he never expands. Don't get ling speed until after you've held him off.
And 11 pool is a not a great build. 14/14 is much better, because it banks extra money for you to expand. 11 pool is okay against FFE to maybe get lings in, but only against someone who blindly/stupidly goes nexus too quick. Even 14/14 isn't really that great of a build, 14pool/16hatch is a better build that's safe against 10 pools while isnt as far behind hatch first, while hatch first is generally just the 'better' build.
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Ill post this again
I had this very weird game against a toss who masses air and then counters my composition i don't know why i lost other then forgetting to lay creep on his third. and what i should have done T_T Please somebody look at the replay
Im a plat zerg vs daimond toss.
http://sc2rep.com/replays/(Z)Huriya_vs_(P)JoY/17087
Also is there any sort of good guide for zvz? Or can somebody give me tips? You know the basic stuff?
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Hello ^^ I am a new zerg trying to make the switch and I have a noob question.
I am having trouble with reactor hellion openings when they keep making them past 4-6 and follow up with marine+tank. How should I be responding and what are some ball park timings for when I should do what? Do you "have" to get a roach warren? How many roaches is to many? Thanks so much <3
+ Show Spoiler + I've been trying to go 3 hatch on 2 base, defend with spines, queens and speedlings while teching to muta and oversaturating in anticipation of breaking out to take my 3rd with very little success. I have also tried a reactive roach warren when I see they are continuing to produce hellions but when I go roach I'm taking a ton of damage to the marine/tank follow up.
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On January 04 2012 05:28 DarKFoRcE wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 05:09 HyperionDreamer wrote:
darkforce, I have a question for you about macro style in high level ZvP (mid-high masters NA). I often find myself with the standard roach hydra corruptor on 4 bases, maxed in food, and wanting to get to hive tech units to compete with P in late game. However I don't really know how to effectively trade down my roaches and hydras without immediately losing the game. Often I find myself attempting to engage protoss, trade down and reduce the colossus count so I can remax on infestor/corruptor/brood with a few ground units to fill out the army, but often I'm completely getting crushed and losing to the ensuing push where my units are trickling out of hatcheries and dying in small groups.
How do you go about trading effectively with protoss and keeping their army manageable? This is what bugs me the most about ZvP, I often lose games that I'm 40+ food ahead in the midgame since I am shitty at attacking protoss and trying to keep them down. Well, there are a couple of options, you can research drop kinda early for example, with drops you will generally trade units better than with just a frontal attack, especially coz u can drop groups of 4 roaches behind minerallines and burrow them if your opponent warps in units. Or you attack when he takes his third. Or, what i personally prefer, you just tech to t3 faster, and if you need to free up supply once you have the greater spire, either try to make runbyes/small attacks with small groups of units, or just kill your own roaches, so your opponent doesnt notice youre freeing up supply. having spines to buffer a bit against a push also help when youre maxed. oh, and being 40 supply ahead of your opponent in the midgame is normal, that doesnt mean youre ahead. depending on composition that can actually mean youre behind. overall you need to make your own experiences with those variations, depending on map and situation one or the other might be better. i dont know that perfectly myself. but especially against an inferior opponent i like going fast t3 when i feel like im a bit ahead.
Thank you for taking the time to read this thread and respond to questions fielded from various newbies like myself. 
When you say research drop, how does this timing compare to that of taking and droning your third base. Of course it depends on what the Protoss is doing, but do you generally make this a late game decision (150+ food, or 3+ bases) or a mid game harassment decision (between 2 and 3 bases, before either side gets to t3)?
I've never found myself doing the spine buffer thing, I'll probably try that tonight if I get any ZvP (it's all ZvZ these days it seems). Is it really normal to be 40+ food ahead of Protoss in the midgame? To me, if you have that much food advantage, then if he ever moves out of his base just go immediately trade and kill him... IDK, I don't struggle much at all with aggressively expanding Protoss who take bases before getting key tech, but I really suck at defending 2 base timing attacks and the overall 3 base deathball. Protoss is so scary when they get up to 6 or 8 gas - yesterday I played against a Protoss who got 3 forges and went mass gateway units on 3 bases with 3/3/3 upgrades and it was some of the scariest shit that I've ever played against. It's probably not actually that good, but I've never played against it so I probably did the wrong thing, I just went standard infestor/corruptor/brood on like 6 bases and 10 gas, but his units actually just never died.
Eventually I managed to kill all of his gateway units (he had so many speedlots with 4 armor on health and 3 armor on shield holy shit they never died) but I had pretty much mined out all my gas and couldn't make any tech units. Have you ever played against this?
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On January 05 2012 13:12 Joedaddy wrote:Hello ^^ I am a new zerg trying to make the switch and I have a noob question. I am having trouble with reactor hellion openings when they keep making them past 4-6. How should I be responding and what are some ball park timings for when I should do what? Do you "have" to get a roach warren? How many roaches is to many? Thanks so much <3 + Show Spoiler + I've been trying to go 3 hatch on 2 base, defend with spines, queens and speedlings while teching to muta and oversaturating in anticipation of breaking out to take my 3rd with very little success. I have also tried a reactive roach warren when I see they are continuing to produce hellions but when I go roach I'm taking a ton of damage to the marine/tank follow up.
Typically against reactor hellions you'll want 3 queens and 1-2 spines initially (1 spine on easy to defend nats) and add on spines as the hellion numbers increase. There have been examples of people having over 5 spines in order to defend. I believe Idra has done this before.
Going roaches reactively can be bad if they stop hellion production early. However you can "meta-game" it by simply opening roaches. I believe TangSC has a post detailing a DRG roach opener, which if the Terran makes more than 4, you can do lots of damage, or even outright win the game.
BO is something like:
15 Hatch
16 Pool
18 Gas
2 Queens 4 Lings when pool finishes
28 Roach Warren
28 2 Overlords
You should have enough gas/money for 8 roaches, which should pop just as the hellions get to your base
Edit: Also, inject with the Queen in your nat, lay a tumour with the Queen in your main. You don't need all the larva from 2 injects.
In addition to the roaches, if you want to be more aggressive, you can get ling speed with your 1st 100 gas, the pump roaches and lings and attack around 7:30 with a push that is more likely to win the game than straight roaches.
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On January 03 2012 08:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:
in general its hard to be aggressive with zerg without being semi-allin'ish, you just have to accept that.
Isn't Leenock generally aggresive overall? In most ZvP's at MLG he did something like 2 base hydra&infestor against FFE while taking third. I don't know if he does that in GSL as well but, yeah.
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On January 06 2012 00:39 nicke10 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2012 08:18 DarKFoRcE wrote:
in general its hard to be aggressive with zerg without being semi-allin'ish, you just have to accept that. Isn't Leenock generally aggresive overall? In most ZvP's at MLG he did something like 2 base hydra&infestor against FFE while taking third. I don't know if he does that in GSL as well but, yeah.
But that's semi all in. There is no transition if you don't do heavy damage. You can't say, oh, he defended well, I'll go take a third now, because he'll either then just come kill you as you try to drone your third, or or he'll just take his own third and it's 3 base vs 3 base. And we all know what happens there.
@Hyperion - I believe you asked about drops? To begin with, OV speed is almost always what I spend my 2nd 100 gas after Lair (the first being Roach Speed). I research drop the moment I see that the Toss wants to play a macro style (waiting to take third base till around 12 min). There's simply no safe way to engage at that point unless you're maxed, so I just take a 4th (I actually make my 4th base hatchery around 13 min, when he's still on 2 base, you have extra mins anyway (assuming 3 hatch vs FFE), but I don't drone it until I see he's taking a third). I drone my 4th, get drop, plant a 5th base hatch, build some units to be safe, tech up, then once drop is done I start by doing an 8 roach drop in the main and a 4 roach drop in the natural. Almost always forces a probe pull, snipe a pylon or two, and clears up supply.
ZvP at that stage of the game is a lot about speed. You have to be FAST in planting, droning, teching, because he could just decide to attack and you have to be ready to make units. Also, changelings to scout army composition constantly. Is he going heavy Colossus? Heavy Immortal? etc.
My last piece of general advice to this thread is to split broodlords against mothership, target it with corruptors, and spam infested terrans like a mad man right outside the vortex (only cast 1 or 2 fungals in the main engagement).
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Thanks for the help ^^ btw I am plat level playing diamonds
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On January 06 2012 03:22 Flonomenalz wrote:
@Hyperion - I believe you asked about drops? To begin with, OV speed is almost always what I spend my 2nd 100 gas after Lair (the first being Roach Speed). I research drop the moment I see that the Toss wants to play a macro style (waiting to take third base till around 12 min). There's simply no safe way to engage at that point unless you're maxed, so I just take a 4th (I actually make my 4th base hatchery around 13 min, when he's still on 2 base, you have extra mins anyway (assuming 3 hatch vs FFE), but I don't drone it until I see he's taking a third). I drone my 4th, get drop, plant a 5th base hatch, build some units to be safe, tech up, then once drop is done I start by doing an 8 roach drop in the main and a 4 roach drop in the natural. Almost always forces a probe pull, snipe a pylon or two, and clears up supply.
Same. First 100 gas on ling speed, second 100 gas on lair, third 100 gas on overlord speed is how I do it. Thanks.
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What the hell do you do vs a Protoss that attacks with stalker/VR/colossi off 2 bases?
Scenario is this:
P tried to pressure me early with VR and a lot of zealot. I utterly crushed this and his VRs ran away. I followed and denied his third. I figured I was in a good spot so I take a 4th for gas and start to continue building econ and army. I get a decent scout (for once!) with an OS and see 2 colossi, stalkers, and about 8 to 10 VRs. I start to prep with roach/corruptor/infestor. He moves out and it isn't even close. I was 200/200 and he must have been close to that as well. His third goes up just before or during the push.
He had 3/2 and I had 2/2. I can't see how that skewed everything so badly - generally I find P has upgrade edge due to chrono and cost.
Is there a unit comp I should have tried instead? Maybe hydra? They die so freaking fast to colossi, though. I figured they'd just be a total waste.
I suck so fucking badly vs. Protoss it makes me want to quit the game. I lose 90% of my ZvPs. Protoss alone is killing my MMR and I have no idea what I'm doing wrong anymore. I feel like I'm playing my ass off and this ball of shit comes along and sodomizes my army.
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Played a ZvT today where I expanded on 15, pool on 14. Two hellions came my way, I held it off without much trouble, and suddenly BAM cloaked banshees.
Harrassed to death. Mass hellion and banshee = me dying pretty fast.
Roach/queen/spore suggested? Timings seem tricky
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On January 06 2012 13:18 Falcon-sw wrote:
Played a ZvT today where I expanded on 15, pool on 14. Two hellions came my way, I held it off without much trouble, and suddenly BAM cloaked banshees.
Harrassed to death. Mass hellion and banshee = me dying pretty fast.
Roach/queen/spore suggested? Timings seem tricky
You should sacrifice an overlord at about 5:30-5:45 if possible. If he's going super fast banshee you should be able to see it as he can't make to many marines. You could also push with a couple roaches at the same time up the ramp while saccing an overlord and you should be able to see it.
Those are your best bets, if you are unsure of what he is doing but you don't think he's doing an expand build (overlord saw no CC for example) I would throw down spore crawlers blindly. Just 1 at each base is your best bet at holding it otherwise you are just praying he is expanding but later then normal.
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On January 06 2012 13:18 Falcon-sw wrote:
Played a ZvT today where I expanded on 15, pool on 14. Two hellions came my way, I held it off without much trouble, and suddenly BAM cloaked banshees.
Harrassed to death. Mass hellion and banshee = me dying pretty fast.
Roach/queen/spore suggested? Timings seem tricky
That sounds like a case of not having scouting info. I'm not going to say "scout better" because I know how hard it can be, especially if the Terran isn't brain-dead and knows to patrol a marine or two and hide buildings deep in his/her base. Add to that the colossal size of the maps, so it takes an OL 3 min or more to get to a base (if you send the first one in the right direction), and to that you can add the fact that your second OL has to sit over your natural to watch for bunker rushes. Then you've got a ling who can poke the ramp; but honestly, any decent player hides their "surprise" well enough away from that.
Scouting is a bitch.
From my experience you can try to get a drone in early (again, tough if you're unlucky on large maps) and stick around to see if he/she goes double gas. Some will hide this until you're out/dead, though. Poking at ramp you'll see a small number of marines,a big clue "something" is up. By "something" it could be all sorts of shenanigans, mass marine, tech, marine/scv all in - just something isn't "standard" so be ready. You can try to be aggressive with TangSCs build (roaches) which will hit before banshee and force them to stay and defend long enough for you to be ready for them.
I would think you're right, that you want roach/queen/spore to deal with that combo. It shouldn't be hard to hold - the trick is whether or not you see it coming in time. I imagine this is more a scouting issue than a unit composition issue. That early in the game the units you yourself suggested are really your only option.
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When protoss do that warp prism 4 sentry mineral line harass, does researching burrow as soon as you have lair work to counter this? or do protoss make an observer with it aswell?
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On January 06 2012 18:35 arena_say_what wrote:
When protoss do that warp prism 4 sentry mineral line harass, does researching burrow as soon as you have lair work to counter this? or do protoss make an observer with it aswell?
I'm not sure if your burrow would finish on time unless you really rush for lair. Then again I don't really know when that harass usually hits, but getting burrow quickly just to avoid taking much damage from sentry drops seems to be the wrong line of thinking to me. It's best to have overlords around the edges of your bases (and if possible further out on the map) so you can move your drones away before the warp prism with sentries gets too close.
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I played a couple of games against terran where he masses up on ravens. Could someone give me some advice on how to beat this composition. Im not looking for general scouting tips or that kind of nonsense, just what kind of army should I be going for as zerg when terran has about 7 ravens and is making more. Im thinking about corrupters since my mutas just straight up die against seeker missiles and auto-turrets. I really have no clue how to beat this.
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On January 07 2012 00:29 derpinator wrote:
I played a couple of games against terran where he masses up on ravens. Could someone give me some advice on how to beat this composition. Im not looking for general scouting tips or that kind of nonsense, just what kind of army should I be going for as zerg when terran has about 7 ravens and is making more. Im thinking about corrupters since my mutas just straight up die against seeker missiles and auto-turrets. I really have no clue how to beat this.
The short and simple answer is to just kill him as soon as you see that he is massing ravens. Ravens are incredibly expensive and only start to become powerful in large numbers with maxed energy.
Assuming for a moment that he managed to perfectly hide his ravens from your view I would just start to attack him from every thinkable angle. His auto-turrets and seeker missiles might be powerful but as soon as the ravens used most of their energy they are worthless. Forcing the engagements in multiple locations means that they will have to spend more energy to deal with the same army. If he decides to go for an all-out attack then you should feel free to start a base race. Seeker missiles can't target buildings so he'll be forced to use auto-turrets. Using auto-turrets to take out your five bases (because you should have five bases at least if he has this many ravens) will take a while and forces him to spread his ravens energy thin.
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I understand you should out macro the terran because he invests so much in tech and you can contain him on 2 bases. The idea to force him to use the energy of ravens before he gets to much of them is a good one. However I still wouldnt know what kind of units I should make. It feels like that when terran reaches a certain critical mass of ravens im unable to turn the tide and proceed to lose the game. This seems like a gimmick strat and I want to know how to handle it.
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EPT
