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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
Hey just looking for some general ZvT strategy advice:
On January 17 2012 12:01 magnaflow wrote:
Idra played 2 base muta/ling/bling.. that shit is so 6 months ago. Even gold level players take faster 3rds.
I'm realizing I might be doing ZvT wrong now. I didnt play at all last season, so I admit im not too up to date in terms of playing any matchups, tho this winter break I decided to restart playing frequently again (its fun after a break!)
Anyway, I typically don't take a fast third in ZvT. In ZvP, I always take a fast third (around 35 supply vs. FFE), unless he's 3g expand in which case I will apply heavy roach/ling while opting into a later third. So, I'm wondering... Is 2 base muta/ling/bling (w/ macro hatch on 2base) into a later third not viable (third going down around 9-11 mins)? To be honest, I do notice I'm having a bit more trouble with ZvT, but idk if that's the reason. The quicker 3rds I'm seeing (a la Bomber) from T make it tough if mutas don't harass well, so I'm wondering if a fast 3rd works vs. T? How should I go about that? Seems like it's much harder to defend tank pushes with fast third, or maybe just much harder to know when the push will be coming/which composition solely based off scouting gas timings and structures in base, which is what I do to predict when to cut drones off fast 3rd in ZvP.
Idk i guess I'm just used to ZvT being really easy... and now that I read "muta/bling isn't viable" i'm wondering what to do.
also I should mention i never build roaches/infestors in ZvT (i add infestors only in late game when getting hive up, but never skip mutas)
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6,7 early pools etc... how do I beat them when I go 14 gas 14 pool?
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On January 17 2012 12:50 Epoch wrote:
6,7 early pools etc... how do I beat them when I go 14 gas 14 pool?
stack drones on mineral patch, bait lings in, send em across to a gas or another patch, then hit S (or A move) and they'll get a surround. if he's smart he wont let this happen, but u'll take no dmg, and you can wait for your queens+lings to pop and you'll be okay.
look on the fringes of your creep for hidden spines morphing. send 4 drones per spine if you see any, and distract with the rest till your army units pop. you shouldn't lose if you go 14p to a 6-7p if you keep a cool head and work on drone stacking/mineral walking
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Is it standard to open with your 3rd base on gold vs FFE on metal, or is it cheesy/too easily killed?
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What's the most effective way to deal with blue flame hellion drops? It's not exactly possible to stop them, as the Terrans going mech, so I go roaches instead of muta. Should I just have 4 or so roaches in each of my mineral liness? Normally by the time I realize the drop is happening, my drones are gone...(and it's not because I'm reacting abusrdly slowly, this is as matter of seconds for my drones to all be dead)
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^ Just leave some units in your mineral line to defend. And/or spine crawlers.
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On January 17 2012 07:03 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third  ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse. Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army.
i dont even think u deserve help if u dont even understand your race saying that toss is more mobile is just dumb
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Hello, I'm a Gold Zerg player and I'm having trouble with the Protoss fast expand. I was under the impression that when you see a Protoss going for a fast expansion you should make Roaches as quickly as possible and apply pressure, but this never seems to work for me. As soon as he see's what I'm doing, he just makes a wall of Cannons and I'm stuck with a bunch of useless Roaches. Do I just need to work on my macro or is there something else I'm doing wrong? Thanks for the help.
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On January 17 2012 20:12 60dl355 wrote:
Hello, I'm a Gold Zerg player and I'm having trouble with the Protoss fast expand. I was under the impression that when you see a Protoss going for a fast expansion you should make Roaches as quickly as possible and apply pressure, but this never seems to work for me. As soon as he see's what I'm doing, he just makes a wall of Cannons and I'm stuck with a bunch of useless Roaches. Do I just need to work on my macro or is there something else I'm doing wrong? Thanks for the help.
this roach preesure is basiaclly an all in, if u dont do serious damage with it u will lose 99% of the time, if u see a forge fe u shuld build a really quick 3rd hatch usually at 4.00-.430 mins and drone like a crazy man and just react to wat u scout with ur ovie sac
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On January 17 2012 20:37 peppilepew wrote:
this roach preesure is basiaclly an all in, if u dont do serious damage with it u will lose 99% of the time, if u see a forge fe u shuld build a really quick 3rd hatch usually at 4.00-.430 mins and drone like a crazy man and just react to wat u scout with ur ovie sac
Cool, thanks for the advice.
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On January 17 2012 20:12 60dl355 wrote:
Hello, I'm a Gold Zerg player and I'm having trouble with the Protoss fast expand. I was under the impression that when you see a Protoss going for a fast expansion you should make Roaches as quickly as possible and apply pressure, but this never seems to work for me. As soon as he see's what I'm doing, he just makes a wall of Cannons and I'm stuck with a bunch of useless Roaches. Do I just need to work on my macro or is there something else I'm doing wrong? Thanks for the help.
I've got something different for you to try. I didn't steal the build but the use of it was principally taken from CricketStarcraft.
14 Pool
<scouting should be done around this time>
15 Hatch
17 Gas
Really simple but works out great against protoss for a number of things:
- If you scout a Forge Fast Expand, just make 4-6 lings right when the Spawning Pool pops. You should be able to slip in with the first 2 sets before the cannon finishes and harass the main or even natural mineral line. Mostly there won't even be a Zealot done to block/chase your lings + most maps all have larger chokes at the natural so you can circumvent the initial cannon. Delay your Roaches as much as possible and drone up hardcore because his gateway tech will be incredibly delayed.
- If you scout that he doesn't go FFE, but instead he stays on 1 base to open up with a timed attack, you can have 2/3 queens, 1/2 spines and a bunch of lings up when the timing hits. You can hold it off, be a base ahead and spawn larvae + spread creep so your macro can really kick in.
- If he tries something like 2/3 gate into expand you can drone heavily instead of overcommitting to lings/spines. If he does some funky stargate opening just get more queens and/or spore crawlers. On 1 base he can't probabaly have both a large air and ground force that you shouldn't be able to defend with 2 base play.
- And if he pylon blocks your expansion, just kill it with the initial 4 lings, drone while the pylon is being destroyed to keep your minerals around the ~250 mark and just expand once it's done. If he cancels you can just go straight at him with the lings to scout/harass. If he doesn't cancel; profit + expo won't be delayed that much.
lol I wanted to keep this short but I figured out some more advantages while I was writing.
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On January 17 2012 07:16 Alkresh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:03 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse. Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army. If you have worse upgrades and a smaller army then yes. You are in the mindset that there are absolutely no limitations to what the toss can do. Three bases is not a lot. They can get a lot of stuff of it, but it is still restricting. From what I can tell the way you see it they will have archons (which requires templar archives or dark shrine, both expensive buildings, and archons are expensive too,) plenty of colossi, a mothership (fleet beacon and another 400 gas,) void rays, and lots of stalkers. That amount of gas is simply not possible on three bases alone, unless they turtle for a solid 20 minutes.if they are then brood lords will be easy to get in time. However most tosses will move out at 200/200 stalker/colossus/void ray, which Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor can beat. Keep in mind fungal is a pretty good spell. It is killable, you just refuse to believe it. And on the idea of a toss winning a base race, you are correct in that it is more mobile, but that would only really matter on Tal'darim Altar, where the superior tactic is mass mutalisk. Almost any other map it is possible to intercept the toss army, and infestor/brood lord/anything can beat most toss army comps.
You will almost always have worse upgrades than protoss because they have chrono. Scratch voidrays then, and stopping at 3-5 colossi is normal for a protosss and on three bases they can get colossi, archons, stalkers. If they get a forth they can get anything they want. If they max quickly on three bases and secure a forth which can be quite easy then there's nothign I can do as I will not have the brood lord count up to beat his army. Roach Hydra Corruptor with some fungals will never beat a maxed protoss deathball.
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Hello people. Platinum Zerg player here. Just wondering. What do you guys open up with in ZvZ (may of course vary depending on which map you play on, if so, plz post that too)
Thanks in advance from The Netherlands :D
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On January 17 2012 20:47 60dl355 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 20:37 peppilepew wrote:
this roach preesure is basiaclly an all in, if u dont do serious damage with it u will lose 99% of the time, if u see a forge fe u shuld build a really quick 3rd hatch usually at 4.00-.430 mins and drone like a crazy man and just react to wat u scout with ur ovie sac Cool, thanks for the advice.
You shouldn't ovie sac against a FFE, you need that scout later. Just get your third at 4-4:30, drone like a mofo until 7 min, get lair and roaches. As soon as lair is done, turn ovie by their base into overseer and scout with that. The only thing that can hit you before 7-8 min after an FFE is light pressure from a few gates, which you easily scout by running lings up close to his wall to see if he has any units out, if there's 2 gates in his wall and you see 2-3 zealots, immediately get 1-2 spines at your nat and third then build a few lings if you see him push. Otherwise, if you start building roaches at 8 minutes and mass them, you'll easily hold any 2 base allin push, your overseer should see if there's stargate or DT tech on the way.
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On January 17 2012 22:04 Mackx wrote:
Hello people. Platinum Zerg player here. Just wondering. What do you guys open up with in ZvZ (may of course vary depending on which map you play on, if so, plz post that too)
Thanks in advance from The Netherlands :D
14/14. It's the only safe opening which can hold anything. What you do from that 14/14 depends on your style etc however, you can get a banenest and try to win without expanding, or you can expand immediately like a normal speedling expand.
Personally, I go 14/14 speedling expand. I build 3 pairs of lings immediately after queen and run them to my opponents base. These lings force a response and give you a full scout since they will hit before he can have banelings out. Optimally, you'll want to drone hardcore while these 6 lings are in the face of your opponent since he won't be able to attack while you're running around his base with them. This more or less equalizes you against a hatch first player since he's building lings while you're building drones, it gives you enough time to get defenses if you see a bane nest and if it's 14/14, you're at least at his base first, which gives you the advantage since the aggressive player is the one who can be droning.
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On January 17 2012 22:04 Mackx wrote:
Hello people. Platinum Zerg player here. Just wondering. What do you guys open up with in ZvZ (may of course vary depending on which map you play on, if so, plz post that too)
Thanks in advance from The Netherlands :D
14gas
14pool
15overlord
queen + 4-6 zerglings
you can drone a couple times after this, then put your expo down on 20-21 supply
after you have 100 gas, take 2 drones off gas and leave 1 on. make baneling nest at 50 gas
make nothing but zerglings after you start your expo. it's mainly for defense, but if he drones really hard then you can just outright kill him with lings or banelings+lings.
don't make an early roach warren. make 1 spine at your main, and more if you scout he hasn't expanded after a reasonable amount of time. if he goes for early roaches, you can defend with a couple spines and you can counter attack with lings/blings since it takes him so long to get across the map with his roaches.
also, if you want something a bit harder to pull off but more rewarding, stephano scouts cross positions on 10 supply (assuming his overlord doesnt cross with his opponents overlord). if his opponent is going for something like 14g/14p, he will 15 hatch, 15 pool, and then not get gas for a very long time. the lack of speedlings isn't a problem because you can block ramp with queens+lings, you can make spinecrawlers to help deal with banelings, and you can always send drones back into your main if he all-ins. you can look at his twitch.tv recordings to see these timings and how he reacts differently based on what he scouts.
there's nothing wrong with using 14/14 with a quick expand as your go-to build every single game until you move up the ranks, though.
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@Tobberoth, thanks! It's mostly what I do but I just wanted to be sure because I almost always lose vs. a FE zerg.. because he can defend if it's on a big map and I will be way behind with drones. But I guess this works 
@Blinkblue Thanks a lot! Nice layout of your comment+paragraphing and the little details like the 1 drone left on gas and overlord timing are great I also stopped getting early roaches since I am starting to value map control over a beefy, immobile army now and the Stephano thing sound friggin perfect! That's how I lost some ZvZ's as the enemy just straightup out-macro'ed me because I lacked economy and harassment.
My question was answered people, but if you got more to add please do
Gz
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Can someone link a few zvt games (preferably pro-level) where the terran goes mech?
I'm having a ton of trouble against mech lately, where the terran controls the middle of the map mid-game with hellions/thor/tank. Should I be massing roaches mid game and aim for a quick 4th at around 12min?
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On January 17 2012 22:06 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 20:47 60dl355 wrote:On January 17 2012 20:37 peppilepew wrote:
this roach preesure is basiaclly an all in, if u dont do serious damage with it u will lose 99% of the time, if u see a forge fe u shuld build a really quick 3rd hatch usually at 4.00-.430 mins and drone like a crazy man and just react to wat u scout with ur ovie sac Cool, thanks for the advice. You shouldn't ovie sac against a FFE, you need that scout later. Just get your third at 4-4:30, drone like a mofo until 7 min, get lair and roaches. As soon as lair is done, turn ovie by their base into overseer and scout with that. The only thing that can hit you before 7-8 min after an FFE is light pressure from a few gates, which you easily scout by running lings up close to his wall to see if he has any units out, if there's 2 gates in his wall and you see 2-3 zealots, immediately get 1-2 spines at your nat and third then build a few lings if you see him push. Otherwise, if you start building roaches at 8 minutes and mass them, you'll easily hold any 2 base allin push, your overseer should see if there's stargate or DT tech on the way.
I disagree with what Tobberoth is saying, with regards to the timings. A 4 min 3rd, which is about 20 supply, will actually cut your eventual drone numbers, or so I'm led to believe. A 5-5:30, 3rd is optimal. You can also drone slightly later, than what he's suggesting, to the 8 Min mark, also due to your relatively low league, the execution of all ins will be slower, so you may find that you can drone even past that. However 7-8 is when you should make units. Also, you want to have a roach warren and evo chamber building at 7 min. Allowing you to make 8 min roaches, when you stop producing. Everything else is spot on.
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On January 17 2012 22:04 Mackx wrote:
Hello people. Platinum Zerg player here. Just wondering. What do you guys open up with in ZvZ (may of course vary depending on which map you play on, if so, plz post that too)
Thanks in advance from The Netherlands :D
On small maps, I open with aXa's 9 pool build, which is really solid and works at my level of mid master, and I have no doubt that it works higher up aswell.
On larger maps, 15 Hatch and 14/14 are pretty much standard builds that you will run into.
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EPT
