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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On January 17 2012 22:56 nonsequitur wrote:
Can someone link a few zvt games (preferably pro-level) where the terran goes mech?
I'm having a ton of trouble against mech lately, where the terran controls the middle of the map mid-game with hellions/thor/tank. Should I be massing roaches mid game and aim for a quick 4th at around 12min?
Instead of posting and waiting for people to link these games... have you tried searching for them yourself?
Just type ZvT Mech.. done
or go to youtube.com/ForceSC2Strategy and look up if he's got a video or 2
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On January 17 2012 19:37 peppilepew wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:03 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third  ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse. Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army. i dont even think u deserve help if u dont even understand your race saying that toss is more mobile is just dumb
I think it's dumb that you don't read the entire qoute. I was discussing the only zerg deathball that can beat the protoss one head on. Which is the brood lord infestor variant, brood lords are slower than stalker, colossi, voidray, archon and ht's. Meaning he can run past me. Also protoss can make units in 3 seconds anywhere on the map, how's that for mobile?
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I was going to create a thread about this, but I can just shove it in here. What are thoughts from high masters/GM Zergs about Macro Hatch>Lair or Lair>Macro Hatch in standard ZvT (hellion vs 3 hatch muta/ling/bane)? I've been doing Lair first, but I'm starting to think that Macro Hatch first might be better as it's easier to hold versus 2fact hellions and forces extra bunkers/defense from the terran if he's playing standard as he doesn't really know if you're looking to be really aggressive. I don't really find faster mutas too be very useful because all mutas are going to do early-mid is keeping him in his base (untill you have that big muta ball and can dive a turret). I'm only mid masters though, so I don't know if I'm just basing this off less optimal play.
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On January 18 2012 00:36 Arisen wrote:
I was going to create a thread about this, but I can just shove it in here. What are thoughts from high masters/GM Zergs about Macro Hatch>Lair or Lair>Macro Hatch in standard ZvT (hellion vs 3 hatch muta/ling/bane)? I've been doing Lair first, but I'm starting to think that Macro Hatch first might be better as it's easier to hold versus 2fact hellions and forces extra bunkers/defense from the terran if he's playing standard as he doesn't really know if you're looking to be really aggressive. I don't really find faster mutas too be very useful because all mutas are going to do early-mid is keeping him in his base (untill you have that big muta ball and can dive a turret). I'm only mid masters though, so I don't know if I'm just basing this off less optimal play.
i usually make my macro hatch b4 i make my 3rd incase he tries to do an contain, iv been experimenting with 2base muta rushing, an 3base econ for later mutas. if you go for a 2base muta rushing you can stop an like banshee tank marine build really easy, it would be harder on 3base but i guess i suppose you might have enough for mutas or you have scouted it by then
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I think the terran meta atm has adapted to counter 2base muta play really hard atm. That's why we see heavy infestor usage (Stephano, Dimaga) being successfull. I think that mutas still work though if you go ling/bane into the midgame with later mutas.
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On January 17 2012 02:07 zJayy962 wrote:
Been playing a lot of ZvP lately and I'd say 80% of Protoss do some sort of FFE or Nexus first. Since I play it so much I have a pretty good grasp on how to handle each situation after a Protoss early expands.
Now the other 20% of Protoss play a 1 gate or 3 gate expand and I have no idea how to play against it. When do I need to build units or take a 3rd? How do I know if hes faking a push or if hes actually attacking if I see him bring a probe with units to the center? I feel terribly afraid of Protoss pushes if he doesn't FFE that I either over make units and lose later on because a lack of drones or I make too little units and lose vs a 3gate push with 5 or 6 sentries.
Edit: Currently around 700 point masters
its quite easy, if you go 14gas 14pool every game an you seet here doing that make the first larvainject an the larva inbetween lings an then start droning cause yo can delay the nexus by like a minute or so an it makes them go all in usually
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On January 18 2012 01:00 izual155 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 02:07 zJayy962 wrote:
Been playing a lot of ZvP lately and I'd say 80% of Protoss do some sort of FFE or Nexus first. Since I play it so much I have a pretty good grasp on how to handle each situation after a Protoss early expands.
Now the other 20% of Protoss play a 1 gate or 3 gate expand and I have no idea how to play against it. When do I need to build units or take a 3rd? How do I know if hes faking a push or if hes actually attacking if I see him bring a probe with units to the center? I feel terribly afraid of Protoss pushes if he doesn't FFE that I either over make units and lose later on because a lack of drones or I make too little units and lose vs a 3gate push with 5 or 6 sentries.
Edit: Currently around 700 point masters its quite easy, if you go 14gas 14pool every game an you seet here doing that make the first larvainject an the larva inbetween lings an then start droning cause yo can delay the nexus by like a minute or so an it makes them go all in usually
Not really good advice I'd say. That would depend on 1. You going 14/14, which isn't a very hot build in ZvP since speedlings do so little good early on, and 2. That the toss 1 gate expanded since there's no way your lings will delay a 3gate expand.
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On January 18 2012 00:45 izual155 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 00:36 Arisen wrote:
I was going to create a thread about this, but I can just shove it in here. What are thoughts from high masters/GM Zergs about Macro Hatch>Lair or Lair>Macro Hatch in standard ZvT (hellion vs 3 hatch muta/ling/bane)? I've been doing Lair first, but I'm starting to think that Macro Hatch first might be better as it's easier to hold versus 2fact hellions and forces extra bunkers/defense from the terran if he's playing standard as he doesn't really know if you're looking to be really aggressive. I don't really find faster mutas too be very useful because all mutas are going to do early-mid is keeping him in his base (untill you have that big muta ball and can dive a turret). I'm only mid masters though, so I don't know if I'm just basing this off less optimal play. i usually make my macro hatch b4 i make my 3rd incase he tries to do an contain, iv been experimenting with 2base muta rushing, an 3base econ for later mutas. if you go for a 2base muta rushing you can stop an like banshee tank marine build really easy, it would be harder on 3base but i guess i suppose you might have enough for mutas or you have scouted it by then
Well, not to be offensive here, but no shit you make your macro hatch before you take your third, he's got hellions at the edge of your creep, the only way you're goign to be able to take a fast third is if you sneak a drone out and then you're completely cut off from that hatch, so it's easy to snipe. This is a question about the timing of the macro hatch timing in a standard game, not about how to play zvt, which is why I posed it to high masters/GM's.
Also, as to the guy saying infestor based builds are popular; they're really not. The best ZvT's right now are pretty centered around muta-ling (DRG in Kr, IdrA/Ret in the foreign scene), also, this isn't a question about other builds.
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On January 18 2012 01:10 Arisen wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 00:45 izual155 wrote:On January 18 2012 00:36 Arisen wrote:
I was going to create a thread about this, but I can just shove it in here. What are thoughts from high masters/GM Zergs about Macro Hatch>Lair or Lair>Macro Hatch in standard ZvT (hellion vs 3 hatch muta/ling/bane)? I've been doing Lair first, but I'm starting to think that Macro Hatch first might be better as it's easier to hold versus 2fact hellions and forces extra bunkers/defense from the terran if he's playing standard as he doesn't really know if you're looking to be really aggressive. I don't really find faster mutas too be very useful because all mutas are going to do early-mid is keeping him in his base (untill you have that big muta ball and can dive a turret). I'm only mid masters though, so I don't know if I'm just basing this off less optimal play. i usually make my macro hatch b4 i make my 3rd incase he tries to do an contain, iv been experimenting with 2base muta rushing, an 3base econ for later mutas. if you go for a 2base muta rushing you can stop an like banshee tank marine build really easy, it would be harder on 3base but i guess i suppose you might have enough for mutas or you have scouted it by then Well, not to be offensive here, but no shit you make your macro hatch before you take your third, he's got hellions at the edge of your creep, the only way you're goign to be able to take a fast third is if you sneak a drone out and then you're completely cut off from that hatch, so it's easy to snipe. This is a question about the timing of the macro hatch timing in a standard game, not about how to play zvt, which is why I posed it to high masters/GM's. Also, as to the guy saying infestor based builds are popular; they're really not. The best ZvT's right now are pretty centered around muta-ling (DRG in Kr, IdrA/Ret in the foreign scene), also, this isn't a question about other builds.
It's funny because DRG didn't use mutas against SC today. He did use infestors though.
That said, I find quite a lot of pros do take thirds instead of macro hatches, depending on the situation though. For example, destiny trained against some pal of his and told him specifically to always park a hellion at the third to block it. Once the third hatch is down, the hellions can't do crap about it since it takes hours for hellions to kill buildings.
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On January 18 2012 01:15 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 18 2012 01:10 Arisen wrote:On January 18 2012 00:45 izual155 wrote:On January 18 2012 00:36 Arisen wrote:
I was going to create a thread about this, but I can just shove it in here. What are thoughts from high masters/GM Zergs about Macro Hatch>Lair or Lair>Macro Hatch in standard ZvT (hellion vs 3 hatch muta/ling/bane)? I've been doing Lair first, but I'm starting to think that Macro Hatch first might be better as it's easier to hold versus 2fact hellions and forces extra bunkers/defense from the terran if he's playing standard as he doesn't really know if you're looking to be really aggressive. I don't really find faster mutas too be very useful because all mutas are going to do early-mid is keeping him in his base (untill you have that big muta ball and can dive a turret). I'm only mid masters though, so I don't know if I'm just basing this off less optimal play. i usually make my macro hatch b4 i make my 3rd incase he tries to do an contain, iv been experimenting with 2base muta rushing, an 3base econ for later mutas. if you go for a 2base muta rushing you can stop an like banshee tank marine build really easy, it would be harder on 3base but i guess i suppose you might have enough for mutas or you have scouted it by then Well, not to be offensive here, but no shit you make your macro hatch before you take your third, he's got hellions at the edge of your creep, the only way you're goign to be able to take a fast third is if you sneak a drone out and then you're completely cut off from that hatch, so it's easy to snipe. This is a question about the timing of the macro hatch timing in a standard game, not about how to play zvt, which is why I posed it to high masters/GM's. Also, as to the guy saying infestor based builds are popular; they're really not. The best ZvT's right now are pretty centered around muta-ling (DRG in Kr, IdrA/Ret in the foreign scene), also, this isn't a question about other builds. It's funny because DRG didn't use mutas against SC today. He did use infestors though. That said, I find quite a lot of pros do take thirds instead of macro hatches, depending on the situation though. For example, destiny trained against some pal of his and told him specifically to always park a hellion at the third to block it. Once the third hatch is down, the hellions can't do crap about it since it takes hours for hellions to kill buildings.
IdrA's and ret have used infestor builds too (and roach/ling too, for that matter), but if you were to think of IdrA's or DRG's ZvT; you jump right to muta ling because they use it most of their games because it's the safest build. Most terrans to have a hellion at the third as well, so if you do hide your scouting drone and move it to your third, you're relying on your terran opponent not playing well. Also, you're pretty vulnerable to banshee followups (which is a popular followup) because you don't have creep spread to get defense there in time. All that aside, the point stands that all of that stuff isn't what this question is about.
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Is making buildings and/or upgrades while supply blocked a bad habit? I'm having a problem with supply blocks around 50-100 supply, and often I make an overlord or two, drop an evo chamber and get burrow for example. Does this help with the blocks or I'm just getting stuff that i can't afford?
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I don't think it is a really bad habit. Supply blocks happen and spending the money on upgrades because you cant spent it on units is a good option. You only have to watch out that you don't spent all of your money to the point where you cant make units if you're not longer supplyblocked.
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On January 18 2012 03:54 robaq wrote:
Is making buildings and/or upgrades while supply blocked a bad habit? I'm having a problem with supply blocks around 50-100 supply, and often I make an overlord or two, drop an evo chamber and get burrow for example. Does this help with the blocks or I'm just getting stuff that i can't afford?
You're probably getting stuff you can't afford, if it's at that early supply.
The only way to deal with supply blocking is to play play play play play. Glance at your supply after every inject or creep spread, if you're on 2 hatch make 2 OLs at a time about 4-6 supply before cap, if on 3 hatch 3-4 at a time, if on 4+ hatch 4 at a time till max.
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Master zerg (me) vs. mid master toss
I'm having trouble beating this, I've played versus it quite a bit and basically it is an FFE into double stargate contain. Once I break out I double expand and by then he is usually on 3 base and going double robo, once about 4 colossus pop he is near max with 4 colossus/blink stalker +3/ void deathball at near max supply. At this point im working towards broodlords but I cannot get them out fast enough to stop this.
Here is replay.
http://www.2shared.com/file/HegKt_G0/help_me.html
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On January 17 2012 21:43 Olsson wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 07:16 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 07:03 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse. Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army. If you have worse upgrades and a smaller army then yes. You are in the mindset that there are absolutely no limitations to what the toss can do. Three bases is not a lot. They can get a lot of stuff of it, but it is still restricting. From what I can tell the way you see it they will have archons (which requires templar archives or dark shrine, both expensive buildings, and archons are expensive too,) plenty of colossi, a mothership (fleet beacon and another 400 gas,) void rays, and lots of stalkers. That amount of gas is simply not possible on three bases alone, unless they turtle for a solid 20 minutes.if they are then brood lords will be easy to get in time. However most tosses will move out at 200/200 stalker/colossus/void ray, which Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor can beat. Keep in mind fungal is a pretty good spell. It is killable, you just refuse to believe it. And on the idea of a toss winning a base race, you are correct in that it is more mobile, but that would only really matter on Tal'darim Altar, where the superior tactic is mass mutalisk. Almost any other map it is possible to intercept the toss army, and infestor/brood lord/anything can beat most toss army comps. You will almost always have worse upgrades than protoss because they have chrono. Scratch voidrays then, and stopping at 3-5 colossi is normal for a protosss and on three bases they can get colossi, archons, stalkers. If they get a forth they can get anything they want. If they max quickly on three bases and secure a forth which can be quite easy then there's nothign I can do as I will not have the brood lord count up to beat his army. Roach Hydra Corruptor with some fungals will never beat a maxed protoss deathball.
This is a point in which drops and muta harass becomes very strong. On nearly any map, 4 base stretches the protoss army thin, so there will weak points in the base you can push into. Fast hive tech might work as well, same with counter attacks. A spine crawler wall might be the key to holding off the attack as well.
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so.. any word on how to approach ZvT w/ fast third? (as opposed to 2 base muta/bling into later third)
in particular, specific build orders/how to adjust & react based off different terran opening (e.g. bomber fast 3rd)
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On January 18 2012 11:12 FallDownMarigold wrote:
so.. any word on how to approach ZvT w/ fast third? (as opposed to 2 base muta/bling into later third)
in particular, specific build orders/how to adjust & react based off different terran opening (e.g. bomber fast 3rd)
Uh, what I've seen a lot of pros be doing is just staying on ling bane, getting a very fast bane speed, and only going to muta after saturating their 3rd base, then they start to mass muta after killing the Terran's first push. It's really good against bio builds because you have so much more gas for banelings/upgrades, it's like ling infestor but without the infestors, instead banelings.
There's really no BO for it though, just make sure you're doing it against bio. If the Terran tries to take a fast third just go kill it and force him to lift.
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I also see terran doing this a lot with the map control they have case of reactor hellion. They go double cc, one at their nat and one hidden somewhere at another base on the map. So when zerg hits mutas and gets map control back, terran is already super ahead economically and just overmakes turrets with his extra minerals to render your mutas pretty much worthless.
What do you recommend to get some map control back from hellions (it's not lings cause 2 hellion can technically kill infinity zerglings)?
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I really really have a hard time against a FE Protoss and I want to get an early third.
Most of the time I just die to a timing attack because I don't know when to build my army, when to scout, what to look for, when to get gas, and what units to get, ALL when I get a 3rd hatch. Could someone please elaborate on the fast 3rd build of a zerg? BIG THANKS <3
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If you're struggling with timing pushes, just watch the replay and focus on two things:
-on which minute mark the push comes
-what buildings is he making.
If you'll memorize these, you just need to stop droning a minute before his push and mass units. You don't even have to saturate your 3rd until you hold the push, the larvae are a large macro boost by themselves.
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EPT
