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On January 18 2012 23:43 Toothless`xelrae wrote:
I really really have a hard time against a FE Protoss and I want to get an early third.
Most of the time I just die to a timing attack because I don't know when to build my army, when to scout, what to look for, when to get gas, and what units to get, ALL when I get a 3rd hatch. Could someone please elaborate on the fast 3rd build of a zerg? BIG THANKS <3
It's actually pretty easy. A 2 base timing attack can, at the earliest, hit at about 8:20 or so. If you're on 3 decently saturated bases, start building only roaches at the 8 minute mark and you'll be fine. Of course, this depends on it being a gateway push. While the timing is true regardless, building only roaches won't help much if he goes double stargate, so make sure to always fly in with an overseer as soon as your lair is done.
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I have a hard time with zvt, late game i just got crushed because;
A. He had so much static defense I could never engage
B. He had so much air superiority that I needed to go air otherwise I lost, but then would get killed by the turrets.
Kind of a follow up is what should my late game army be like?
Thanks :D
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I've been playing some zvp lately, and have trouble recognizing when the heavy gateway pushes are happening after a FFE. lets say 7 gate +1 or something like that. So i never have enough units made before it hits. What should I be looking for when scouting the front, to see if a big gateway push is going to happen? (lets say I couldn't get my first scouting ovie in his base, this happens semi-regularly)
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On January 18 2012 10:44 Alkresh wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2012 21:43 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 07:16 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 07:03 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 06:53 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 06:06 Olsson wrote:On January 17 2012 05:13 Rk0 wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. Deny his third  ROFL. Just going to ignore that judging by the fact that you didn't read the entire post I made. On January 17 2012 04:55 Alkresh wrote:On January 17 2012 03:24 Olsson wrote:
How are you supposed to beat a protoss that doesn't do aggression and just goes for an early third after FFE on maps like Metalopolis, Shakuras, Shattered Temple, Tal'Darim and Antiga. He can just take an early third and shut me out using forcefields. Then I get stomped by his deathball. Masters zerg here. The best option there, assuming his third was very fast and you are fairly sure that he wants to sit and deathball it up for a while, is to grab your 4th and maybe even your fifth, get spire and infestation pit, get a strong corrupter force with several infestors, as well as good upgrades on roach/hydra,and be as greedy as possible. Maybe even take a fast fifth, since you will need a lot of gas. odds are that you should wait until his deathball pushes out and you hold it off with a massive force, or at least slow it down, to get brood lords, but try to have the greater spire upgrading before the battle starts. From here just remake your army and continue to macro, deny any further bases, and take the gold. So you want me to return to roach hydra corruptor but just with some infestors? And brood lords are so slow he can just run past me and base race me, take out a few expos then go after my army and remax faster than me since he still has his economy. Also a mothership in his deathball will beat brood lord compositions. It is that sort of thinking that has you in such a rut. A toss will not win a base race against a zerg, every toss will tell you that. Base racing against zerg is bad, much like base racing against terran is bad. Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor works because it has a large amount of dps, and as long as you have an appropriate amount of corrupters to take out the colossi (8 or so for 3, 12+ for 5 or more) infestors, hydras, and roaches should be enough to handle the stalkers and void rays that come along. It is easy to scout when the toss is going for a mothership, and if you scout that then you need a lot more corrupters to take out the mothership as well. Brood lords only die to mothership combo if there are archons out on the field en masse. Then what if there are archons and your corruptors get vortexed? I chose not to listen to your advice of going roach hydra corruptor again (lol) because all zergs did that the first few months of the game and it didnt work out which was why the infestor was buffed. At three bases a protoss can get their deathball which will crush anything NON-broodlord base without braking a sweat. And a protoss will win a base race vs a zerg because protoss 1st are more mobile, 2nd more buildings, 3 higher dps in their army. If you have worse upgrades and a smaller army then yes. You are in the mindset that there are absolutely no limitations to what the toss can do. Three bases is not a lot. They can get a lot of stuff of it, but it is still restricting. From what I can tell the way you see it they will have archons (which requires templar archives or dark shrine, both expensive buildings, and archons are expensive too,) plenty of colossi, a mothership (fleet beacon and another 400 gas,) void rays, and lots of stalkers. That amount of gas is simply not possible on three bases alone, unless they turtle for a solid 20 minutes.if they are then brood lords will be easy to get in time. However most tosses will move out at 200/200 stalker/colossus/void ray, which Roach/hydra/corrupter/infestor can beat. Keep in mind fungal is a pretty good spell. It is killable, you just refuse to believe it. And on the idea of a toss winning a base race, you are correct in that it is more mobile, but that would only really matter on Tal'darim Altar, where the superior tactic is mass mutalisk. Almost any other map it is possible to intercept the toss army, and infestor/brood lord/anything can beat most toss army comps. You will almost always have worse upgrades than protoss because they have chrono. Scratch voidrays then, and stopping at 3-5 colossi is normal for a protosss and on three bases they can get colossi, archons, stalkers. If they get a forth they can get anything they want. If they max quickly on three bases and secure a forth which can be quite easy then there's nothign I can do as I will not have the brood lord count up to beat his army. Roach Hydra Corruptor with some fungals will never beat a maxed protoss deathball. This is a point in which drops and muta harass becomes very strong. On nearly any map, 4 base stretches the protoss army thin, so there will weak points in the base you can push into. Fast hive tech might work as well, same with counter attacks. A spine crawler wall might be the key to holding off the attack as well.
The problem with going muta against a 4base protoss is that they will have money for cannons and one HT at each base. While you will have enough mutas to take out a cannon you will take some damage from the storm, good protosses will also have a few stalkers at each base until they push out. Which at that point you need to return your massive flock of mutas to fight in a battle that they weren't designed to fight in. A spine wall may work on some maps but it will never work fully against an entire army because you need atleast 20 spines in the same place to do any damage vs a protoss deathball. Which is impossible to get and to cover an area even on maps like shakuras. On maps like Tal'Darim and Antiga protoss can just park their deathball outside their third and forth and be safe against aggression. At this point when they have a forth your ling muta army is irrelevant as they can stomp you over and over with the same army, even if you throw five armies at them. Base race? Not a reliable option with mutas and lings since protoss have more buildings for starters.
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I'm still having a hard time, I always seem to get destroyed by anti air with my large group of bro lords. What should i be building instead of bro lords.
zvt
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anyone with reps on Nydus worm usage pls..why dont anyone use it!!
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On January 19 2012 01:50 vahgar.r24 wrote:
anyone with reps on Nydus worm usage pls..why dont anyone use it!!
Very few people use nydus's because they are extremely expensive on gas, and only work at high levels outside of an opponents base. Easily scouted and denied when within a base, even on one as big as shakuras.
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On January 19 2012 01:30 9-BiT wrote:
I'm still having a hard time, I always seem to get destroyed by anti air with my large group of bro lords. What should i be building instead of bro lords.
zvt
Ultra tech switches are very strong assuming you have good upgrades. Also have a decent amount of corrupters with your brood lords to fight vikings.
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People in this thread told me to go muta vs protoss to deny third and do damage from them to stop them from getting their deathball. So I went muta, got a 10-20 worker lead the entire game, denied his bases several times, did good harass though I lost some mutas at some points which shouldnt justify the fact that he lost so much more than me and still won. Im ahead on atleast 1 base but often two bases the entire game and I make spine crawler walls to defend pushes. Yet he ROFL stomps me by building stalkers and sentries and then colossi off two base. Im not able to defend his push and I couldn't base race him because my muta count was A) too low. B) he had to many defences. C) His army was bigger than mine so he couldve just went back/taken out my base and then went after my army and win. D) He could warp in back at home with his ton of warpgates. E) He had more buildings than me. F) He had more dps than me.
Replay: http://drop.sc/94523
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How do you scout a reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee? (you just 14 or 15 hatched). I mean, how do you scout the cloak banshee.
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On January 19 2012 00:45 Rednaxela_19 wrote:
I've been playing some zvp lately, and have trouble recognizing when the heavy gateway pushes are happening after a FFE. lets say 7 gate +1 or something like that. So i never have enough units made before it hits. What should I be looking for when scouting the front, to see if a big gateway push is going to happen? (lets say I couldn't get my first scouting ovie in his base, this happens semi-regularly)
Check how many gases are at his natural and whether or not he's getting +1 on his forge at around ~42-45 food. Sorry, I don't know the timing of this other than measuring it in food because my build against FFE is just relative to food.
0 gas, +1....he's coming! He's doing a 7 gate or something similar like immortal drops + sentry blocking your main.
0 gas, no +1....you probably won't see this almost ever and its more likely that you missed seeing the +1 or you scouted too early and he's getting some more gas soon
1 gas, +1... he's probably not doing a 7 gate all-in, but more like single stargates or possibly the immortal/sentry drop
1 gas, no +1 ... most likely single stargate
2 gas, +1 .... this doesn't make sense, but if he does, its likely to be double stargate or quick colo
2 gas, no +1 ... double stargate, mass air
EDIT: obviously, if you can just scout his whole base with a slow overlord, do it, but i'm basing this off the fact that your overlord is likely to die before it sees anything.
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On January 19 2012 04:24 PeanutsNJam wrote:
How do you scout a reactor hellion expand into cloak banshee? (you just 14 or 15 hatched). I mean, how do you scout the cloak banshee.
(DIAMOND PLAYER FWIW) Even if you don't scout it with a floating overlord Peanuts, by the time it arrives you should have evo down for upgrade and at least three queens and be teching to lair(maybe depending on your build.) Either that, or you are already at lair going fast mutas with three queens.
I don't know how you are opening against reactor hellion expand, but the zvt metagame is pretty ironed out and a lot of zergs have incorporated in safety mechanisms to prevent stuff like this. for instance, if you want to delay mutas and focus on ground and upgrades you will still have a lair on the way or just completing, a macro hatch, and enough queens to stop banshee. if you see more than four hellions that means delayed tank production means that you can likely risk going faster mutas in which case you will be at lair with overseer by the time the banshee arrives.
So i guess what I'm saying is that in the worst case scenario when you don't scout these builds the builds that you use should have defenses for stuff like cloaked banshee after expo. if the banshee(s) does even only moderate damage you are probably way way ahead. any tech used to push will likely be extremely delayed. if you happened to go fast mutas you can take a third easy - if not you go mutas asap and overdrone until you can safely take a third.
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Just played a game vs protoss, he went pheonix which means I cant win basically since I can't go muta which is the only way to win. So I went for broodlords just for the lulz and just like expected my entire army got vortexed and archon toileted (not enough fungals to stop archons from going in as he vortexed my infestors). Then he proceeded to warp in 16 zealots from a warp prism all over the map and take out my expansions which had like 5 spines each at them but they didnt do shit. So how do I beat protoss in late game?
I just cannot fucking believe blizzard came up with the idea that protoss can have a mobile pylon that creates units anywhere on the map. In late game this is fucking impossible to deal with. Since the only way to kill the zealots is to have equal supply of roaches to them which would be around 20 supply, 20 supply is alot in the late game especially since you need 100% broodlords and infestors to beat the protoss late game.
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On January 19 2012 04:40 Olsson wrote:
Just played a game vs protoss, he went pheonix which means I cant win basically since I can't go muta which is the only way to win. So I went for broodlords just for the lulz and just like expected my entire army got vortexed and archon toileted (not enough fungals to stop archons from going in as he vortexed my infestors). Then he proceeded to warp in 16 zealots from a warp prism all over the map and take out my expansions which had like 5 spines each at them but they didnt do shit. So how do I beat protoss in late game?
I just cannot fucking believe blizzard came up with the idea that protoss can have a mobile pylon that creates units anywhere on the map. In late game this is fucking impossible to deal with. Since the only way to kill the zealots is to have equal supply of roaches to them which would be around 20 supply, 20 supply is alot in the late game especially since you need 100% broodlords and infestors to beat the protoss late game.
Your attitude is pure, fucking, poison. That's your only problem.
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I was thinking about this today: Do you think it is better to get a second queen versus a FFE or delay the second queen for a few extra drones and a faster third hatch? I'm thinking it may be slightly more economical to delay it.
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On January 19 2012 04:49 Catgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On January 19 2012 04:40 Olsson wrote:
Just played a game vs protoss, he went pheonix which means I cant win basically since I can't go muta which is the only way to win. So I went for broodlords just for the lulz and just like expected my entire army got vortexed and archon toileted (not enough fungals to stop archons from going in as he vortexed my infestors). Then he proceeded to warp in 16 zealots from a warp prism all over the map and take out my expansions which had like 5 spines each at them but they didnt do shit. So how do I beat protoss in late game?
I just cannot fucking believe blizzard came up with the idea that protoss can have a mobile pylon that creates units anywhere on the map. In late game this is fucking impossible to deal with. Since the only way to kill the zealots is to have equal supply of roaches to them which would be around 20 supply, 20 supply is alot in the late game especially since you need 100% broodlords and infestors to beat the protoss late game. Your attitude is pure, fucking, poison. That's your only problem.
Low money, good unit composition, good macro. Aslong as I do the shit correct my attitude is not an issue I just need to know how to beat this which I'm very doubtful that I can.
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On January 19 2012 03:46 Olsson wrote:People in this thread told me to go muta vs protoss to deny third and do damage from them to stop them from getting their deathball. So I went muta, got a 10-20 worker lead the entire game, denied his bases several times, did good harass though I lost some mutas at some points which shouldnt justify the fact that he lost so much more than me and still won. Im ahead on atleast 1 base but often two bases the entire game and I make spine crawler walls to defend pushes. Yet he ROFL stomps me by building stalkers and sentries and then colossi off two base. Im not able to defend his push and I couldn't base race him because my muta count was A) too low. B) he had to many defences. C) His army was bigger than mine so he couldve just went back/taken out my base and then went after my army and win. D) He could warp in back at home with his ton of warpgates. E) He had more buildings than me. F) He had more dps than me. Replay: http://drop.sc/94523
You made a ton of mutas but did almost 0 dmg (you got 2 colossi late game). It was 2 base vs 2 base for a looooong time. You threw away 10-20~ supply worth of zerglings multiple times. You denied his third once or twice but then let him get a gold base. He sniped a couple of your morphing brood lords near the end. In the final battle he had SO much more army supply.
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Quick question to the Zerg players, since I'm not a Zerg main.
Why don't I hear more qq about snipe against broodlords and ultras? Been watching some pro replays, and I constantly see huge numbers of Ultras and broodlords get wtfpwned by 12ish ghosts. Fully upgraded T3 units completely melted at solid range by a stealthed t1.5(2?) caster.
I personally haven't experienced this scenario as a low rated Zerg alt, but I'm just amazed that no one complains about it. Perhaps it is the resilience of the Zerg community in general to not complain, but really? No one complains when your ridiculously expensive broodlords just disappear?
Always been curious about this.
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On January 19 2012 05:58 Crownlol wrote:
Quick question to the Zerg players, since I'm not a Zerg main.
Why don't I hear more qq about snipe against broodlords and ultras? Been watching some pro replays, and I constantly see huge numbers of Ultras and broodlords get wtfpwned by 12ish ghosts. Fully upgraded T3 units completely melted at solid range by a stealthed t1.5(2?) caster.
I personally haven't experienced this scenario as a low rated Zerg alt, but I'm just amazed that no one complains about it. Perhaps it is the resilience of the Zerg community in general to not complain, but really? No one complains when your ridiculously expensive broodlords just disappear?
Always been curious about this.
Most terrans aren't good enough to use ghosts effectively, even at masters level.
also bump
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Master zerg (me) vs. mid master toss
I'm having trouble beating this, I've played versus it quite a bit and basically it is an FFE into double stargate contain. Once I break out I double expand and by then he is usually on 3 base and going double robo, once about 4 colossus pop he is near max with 4 colossus/blink stalker +3/ void deathball at near max supply. At this point im working towards broodlords but I cannot get them out fast enough to stop this.
halp?
Here is replay.
http://www.2shared.com/file/HegKt_G0/help_me.html
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On January 19 2012 04:40 Olsson wrote:
Just played a game vs protoss, he went pheonix which means I cant win basically since I can't go muta which is the only way to win. So I went for broodlords just for the lulz and just like expected my entire army got vortexed and archon toileted (not enough fungals to stop archons from going in as he vortexed my infestors). Then he proceeded to warp in 16 zealots from a warp prism all over the map and take out my expansions which had like 5 spines each at them but they didnt do shit. So how do I beat protoss in late game?
I just cannot fucking believe blizzard came up with the idea that protoss can have a mobile pylon that creates units anywhere on the map. In late game this is fucking impossible to deal with. Since the only way to kill the zealots is to have equal supply of roaches to them which would be around 20 supply, 20 supply is alot in the late game especially since you need 100% broodlords and infestors to beat the protoss late game.
Not going to lie, you do have a pretty crappy attitude towards this.
There was something about spawning a whole crapload of infested terrans AROUND the vortex so when the archons come out, they don't do near as much splash, you could give that a try. (I know you said he vortex your infestors, but keep them in the back so if he comes up to try to vortex them, NP it and vortex his units instead.)
If he's built that many warp prisms then his army food is likely a lot lower than yours, if you have 5 spines at each base then you hit a few transfuses and you are fine. This sounds more like rage than a constructive post.
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EPT
