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On November 15 2011 21:32 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 19:04 Umpteen wrote:Quick question about delayed 2-port banshee: http://replayfu.com/download/5dH3ckThis has happened to me a couple of times now. After seeing no super-fast gas and stealing one of them, and seeing a hellion with a ling on his ramp, and sacrificing two overlords, I was pretty damn surprised to see banshees with cloak arriving two at a time. Obiously the fact I couldn't see anything in his base ruled out mass barracks (unless proxied, but that's a different problem), but I was erring on the side of BFH, possibly with medivacs. First question : How should I have read what he was doing? Should I have just accepted that I couldn't tell if he was going mass hellion or banshees and made queens/spores? Also I find two-port banshee hard to deal with at the best of times - I don't think I've ever successfully defended it, in fact. I've seen it coming, made spores and queens, but he just backs off and doesn't commit until he has a critical mass that one-shots my queens, at which point I'm dead. If I try to get a lair up to go muta or hydra, the lack of queen production just gets me killed that much sooner. Second question: What the heck do I do versus 2-port banshee anyway? I guess having 4 queens in total just in case never bad idea, especially when you see he has no expand and doing something tricky. Also get hydra den asap after the lair if you see banshees, because what he did was an allin anyways.
Are you sure about the hydra? I ask for two reasons:
1. I've tried hydra before, and because they're so fat and low-range and stream in off two bases they all get picked off before they can shoot.
2. Going hydra just seems like an invitation for the terran to swap an addon, make a couple of tanks and drag the game out for another thirty minutes.
Wouldn't it be better to go spire instead? They have nothing to fear from popping out one at a time, and can actually go and DO something afterwards.
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On November 15 2011 22:59 Steel wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:40 Ahelvin wrote:
Hello fellow zerg, and thank you for all the valuable input you provide...
I'm a platinum zerg, and I feel like I'm starting to get a good grip on ZvP, especially when the protoss is FFE (thanks to RoyalFlush's guide on delayed lair). However, I recently lost quite stupidly to a FFE -> 2 stargate (2 VR then chrono 4-5 phenixes) -> Very fast third into collossus.
I scouted the double SG a bit late thanks to an overseer (when he already had the VR and 2 phenixes, but didn't moved out yet).
My reactions :
1°) I threw down two spore at each base.
2°) I went Hydras/Roaches to defend (he didn't lose his VR and phenixes) and then tried to push when I realized he was taking his third but my push was so slow that when I got to his base in time I only traded a few roaches and hydras VS a few stalkers and a collossus
3°) He then proceeded to kill me with a standard VR/Collo/Stalker deathball and did it pretty convincgly since my 4th was so late and almost inexistant
My questions :
1°) My econ took a huge dent from the precautionnary Spores. Was it too much of an investment?
2°) Hydras are awful. Like incredibly awful. I hate them. How should I react to a double stargate? Should I counter immediately with a lot of roaches (Mondragon style?)
3°)If Hydras are the answer to double stargate, how to prevent the toss from taking a very fast third? Do I need to take my 4th and power shitloads of roaches while keeping a few hydras to defend?
Thanks a lot, I'm a bit lost after this game, and I'm really willing to improve. Keep in mind that I'm bad and made a lot of mistakes in this game (I wouldn't have lost to a plat player if I didn't), but I'd like to have a stereotypical reaction in mind to a double stargate after FFE (I'm quite prone to brainfarts when it come to improvisation :p). Hi. I'm a high masters zerg and this is how I deal with this. It may not be the best way but it seems to be the only thing that works. Unfortunately, hydra's are your only option early on. This strategy is actually quite common especially on the Korean server. They often go ahead and keep making phoenixes which are good against hydras in low numbers. I like to put down one spore at every base and get gas sooner. I'm talking three extractors when your third is close to finishing. My first one hundred gas goes into ling speed, the second hundred gas into +1 range, and then lair. This strategy is so common that I rather change my opening because I'm not going to scout it. Good protoss' will basically never let you scout it before overseer and it's already too late if you have no precautions. When I don't scout any units/large amount of gateways (5+) by the time lair is done I put down the hydra den. If you don't get your hydra's out before his phoenix count gets out of control, you lost. A little bit about spire: You can go for mutalisk but anyone with decent control will out micro you badly and you'll die to a small gateway force. After I control the air with hydras, I want to figure out if he's going to keep making air units, go colossus, or do something like a zealot archon timing. I also want to see if he took his third. Overlord speed can help you with that. If he took his third you can try to pressure it with roaches but it always depends on the map layout. You can get your fourth and work your way towards spire unless he's going high templar. Basically, it all boils down to not taking too much damage from the stargates. General tips: - Don't send out any overlords after your first two. It's too risky. If you lose 6+ overlords because you spread them around, SG did enough damage, and chances are you'll even take more damage since you're so supply blocked you can't make hydras. SG play has that kind of domino effect. - The sooner you get your hydras out, the sooner you can deflect stargate, the sooner you can transition out of hydras. You're right, Hydra's SUCK but it's your only option at this point. Mutas suck and corruptors are expensive and leave you really exposed to gateway timings. Hydra is truly the only way to deal with this. -In this regard, stop delaying your lair. I know you want to get your econ up, but having a Lair quickly enables you to figure out what is going on and have the available tech to deal with it. -Stay ahead on upgrades. Stargate play will inevitably delay his upgrades (not as much now, but still). So you want to get yours up. Sometimes when I take very little damage from double SG, I like to get overlord speed and drop and do a +2 timing: I drop all my hydras in his main (get a nice round number like 12 or 16) and then get a bunch of roaches with speed to attack his third or natural. He can hardly defend both if you didn't take damage from his SG. Make sure you check where the phoenixes are before you drop though. Sorry I don't have exact timings, I think everyone is pretty much figuring out this new trend, but I hope this helps you a little.
Thank you for taking the time to answer me, and there are some good pieces of advice in your post 
However, I'm more concerned about the opening you recommand. While it's surely very good against FFE into double SG, I'm afraid I would straight up die to any heavy WG all-in if I take my gases so early... I usually take my third at 23 supply upon scouting a FFE (I go 14p/15h/23third/32 two gases usually), and taking so much gas early on would starve me on minerals.
Is there any way I could not lose to this opening while taking my usual fast third? Or do I need to revamp my opening? I have my lair tech at 7:30/8 minutes usually...
My Go-To opening VS FFE, if you want to have a look.
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On November 15 2011 23:38 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 21:32 Alpina wrote:On November 15 2011 19:04 Umpteen wrote:Quick question about delayed 2-port banshee: http://replayfu.com/download/5dH3ckThis has happened to me a couple of times now. After seeing no super-fast gas and stealing one of them, and seeing a hellion with a ling on his ramp, and sacrificing two overlords, I was pretty damn surprised to see banshees with cloak arriving two at a time. Obiously the fact I couldn't see anything in his base ruled out mass barracks (unless proxied, but that's a different problem), but I was erring on the side of BFH, possibly with medivacs. First question : How should I have read what he was doing? Should I have just accepted that I couldn't tell if he was going mass hellion or banshees and made queens/spores? Also I find two-port banshee hard to deal with at the best of times - I don't think I've ever successfully defended it, in fact. I've seen it coming, made spores and queens, but he just backs off and doesn't commit until he has a critical mass that one-shots my queens, at which point I'm dead. If I try to get a lair up to go muta or hydra, the lack of queen production just gets me killed that much sooner. Second question: What the heck do I do versus 2-port banshee anyway? I guess having 4 queens in total just in case never bad idea, especially when you see he has no expand and doing something tricky. Also get hydra den asap after the lair if you see banshees, because what he did was an allin anyways. Are you sure about the hydra? I ask for two reasons: 1. I've tried hydra before, and because they're so fat and low-range and stream in off two bases they all get picked off before they can shoot. 2. Going hydra just seems like an invitation for the terran to swap an addon, make a couple of tanks and drag the game out for another thirty minutes. Wouldn't it be better to go spire instead? They have nothing to fear from popping out one at a time, and can actually go and DO something afterwards.
Obivously spire is 10x times better, but the thing is that spire comes much much later. You may lose a game in that time. Also keep in mind that his gas was stolen, so his banshees came a little later. And don't be afraid that he is going to counter hydras - he was doing allin, so if you defend banshees you gonna defend anything he will throw at you.
Also you had very low amount of drones, dunno what is your level but you need to drone much more in the begining. Those roaches were not useful as well. You had like 29 drones at 9 minute. You should has at least 45-50.
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Just going to throw a situation out there for general discussion amongst fellow zerg players:
Tal'darim Altar LE, you spawn with P in counter clockwise position from you. Which third should you take and how do you deal with a 1 stargate+5-7 gate attack on your third? As I see it, you have 3 options, but they all have problems:
a) Your natural third with at the rocks. Delays mining until you can take down the rocks but you can place it next to the rocks and take a 4th hatchery in the proper position once you've destroyed the rocks. I personally do this, but I think it hurts my eco quite a bit. I just realized that I ended every clause with "the rocks".
b) The "usual" 3rd at tal'darim, albeit it's now next to the protoss main. On non-counter clockwise position spawns it's the obvious choice, but even then it struggles somewhat against stargate play. It obviously works fine if P doesn't scout it, but he can build cannons and warp-in units directly into your base. Feels like suicide unless you build lots of spine crawlers and you're dead anyway when P gets colossus.
c) The base clockwise from your main. Most pros do this, but It's so far away and your creep takes ages to get there. I feel that there's not much you can do against an early 1 voidray 1 phoenix + zealot push unless you over prepare for it blindly.
Let's take a poll, post your preferred method with a motivation.
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So i just played ZvP vs. FFE, pretty much same as i explained before, just tal darim. And he went into 2 stargates with only 3(!!) gas. Made 3 voids and followed phoenixes. Fortunatelly i defended but mainly because it's easier to take all queens to one spot on this map + he controlled poorly. So conclusion if you see no gas on natural only then 2 stargate is impossible, but considering that rarelly toss plays with 2 gases for that long, i can't really judge his build by just gases taken.
No offense, but what league was this in? It sounds like your opponent was just bad (which is funny how it works out if your zerg tt). In any case, 3 gas means he could be doing single stargate, to which you need to confirm. He will have zero sentries, and his forge won't be upgrading (btw forge = 2nd most important thing to scout, either it's spinning or not for a reason).
A 3 gas double stargate will just mean his stargate will come late. I mean, anyone make 2 stargate at 20 minutes into the game and maybe surprise you with mass void right? But you know why that doesn't work? Because you have high econ, and have access to units and spines. Well, a 3 gas double stargate just means it will be late, and your sac'd overlord or scouts should have confirmed enough that you would've made at least 1-2 spores total. Then you get that 'oh shit' moment, and you simply throw down lots of spores.
Making a bunch of spores at 7:00, and he didn't do stargate or DT, will kill you. But making 10 spores at the 10:00 mark, when going fast third, is okay (okay, it's kind of an overreaction, and if he did end up doing something like mass gate you'd die, but you get my point. but making like 3 would be perfectly fine, even if he does mass gate attack). If you aren't sure what your opponent is doing on a FFE and you are still on hatch tech, it's okay to throw a few spores and queens up to stay safe, at the 10:00 mark. He has to reveal his hand by the 10:00 mark, and if he hasn't, you need to start panicking a bit.
2°) I went Hydras/Roaches to defend
hydras are great against single stargate. Against double stargate, however, hydras get completely owned. Never go hydra against double stargate, you'll need either infestors or corruptors. Which means you'll need mass spore/queen to defend for the time being. Double stargate is extremely all-in, just make 3 spores at your main and third, reroot as necessary, maybe a few extra queens, and hurry up the lair, and then drone drone drone.
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I guess having 4 queens in total just in case never bad idea, especially when you see he has no expand and doing something tricky. Also get hydra den asap after the lair if you see banshees, because what he did was an allin anyways.
Dont' ever make hydras in ZvT, even against double starport shenanigans. They have no long term use in the game, and banshees will beat hydras 1 to 2. What ends up happening against double starport, is that they'll have 2, then 4, then 6, then 8 banshees extremely quickly. A Zerg who got a hydra den that quickly, will struggle to produce that many hydras to fight banshees better than 1v2 ratios.
Double starport is an all-in as well. Just make 3-4 spores/queens per base, hold off the all-in, and push back with 2 base ling/bane/muta. Easy.
If terran is still on 1 base after 7:00, and I can't tell what's going on at all, I will always make 2 more additional queens. They are quite good against any sort of 1 base play like banshees, hellions, mass marine, etc, and contribute to the lategame with larva for my later hatches and with creep spread.
Mutas won't really pop in time, by the way, to kill banshees off. I wouldn't recommend mutas as a'counter' to banshee play. But, being on 2 base, I would certainly recommend you make the spire sooner rather than later against someone going banshees, as opposed to maybe baneling speed or other upgrades of the sort. But you'll just need to defend with queen/spore.
Ahelvin, watch Nestea vs Naniwa Shakuras g1 Blizzcon, for an example of how to take fast third and when to get gas. In short:
30 supply 3rd (taking it at around 23 like you are, will actually cut you about 10 drones, it kind of hurts you actually, ive tested).
5:50 2 x gas
@100 gas ling speed
6:45 Evo
7:00 Roach Warren
8:00 Lots of roaches, you should be at 70 supply, around 55 drones now. Definitely should be at 70 supply though.
2 x gas when you start lair, generally arond 90-120 supply (depending on the aggression you meet), or if you can confirm it isn't mass gate push (ie you see stargate or templar tech or gas at their natural). 8:00 would be the earliest.
Run on 4 gas until you get 75 drones, then take 5-6 gas.
I would not recommend royalflush's guide there, to be honest. Really, it's just his faster lair that is disagreeable.
You may lose a game in that time. Also keep in mind that his gas was stolen, so his banshees came a little later. And don't be afraid that he is going to counter hydras - he was doing allin, so if you defend banshees you gonna defend anything he will throw at you.
hydras do not counter banshees well at all. At all. Mutas will come soon enough, don't worry. Spores/Queens is perfectly acceptable defense for the time being. You should have an evo chamber and 4 queens when seeing 1 base terran, you'll be fine.
Tal'darim Altar LE, you spawn with P in counter clockwise position from you. Which third should you take and how do you deal with a 1 stargate+5-7 gate attack on your third? As I see it, you have 3 options, but they all have problems:
I take the third that's farther away from protoss, of the two unencumbered thirds. Generally, you won't have creep in time to connect to your third no matter how close it is, against stargate openers. You just have to be prepared. I usually make 2 'sets' of AA defense of queens/spores. One at my vulnerable third, and one shared for my main/nat, which I center at the location more likely for attack. I don't hesitate to add more defense to keep the third alive.
Don't worry about 1 stargate 5-7 gate attack. Worry about the stargate, and deal with the follow-up later, and independently. If he opens stargate, it just makes it easier for me to defend because this means my mass roach/ling will also have a macro hatch, +1, and roach speed behind it. He won't have many air units, if he does that just gives me more time, maybe enough to even mass mutas to roll him.
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Anyways I would like to bring this question of mine back up about mech since it's been buried by other questions, now that I've answered everyone.
Spoiler tags because it's quite long and kind of a rant. I wish I could make a [H] thread about it, but I always beat mech so I don't really want to post a [H] thread where in every replay I'm winning the game (or losing to something obvious, that I know about anyways), as that would make me look even more like an ass.
[spoiler]I have a question in regards to mech:
I always feel sort of 'lost' when playing against mech. Now, I almost always beat mech, and I think it's a really horrible way to play. I solidly beat it 9 out of 10 times. But I sort of feel like I have no direction in my play, or maybe just the 3 options I see possible are both just good. When it gets to end-game and I got my hive tech going, it's pretty clear what to do. It's just that critical 2-3 base of terran, his first push, that's questionable, and I'm unsure where to go at lairtech.
See, this is how I sort of approach it:
1. He is going hellion/tank heavy before thor heavy. I don't even make a roach warren, and just mass mutas. I believe idra plays this style, and eventually the mass mutas own him, and grants me time to get BL/Infestor.
2. He is going Thor heavy, no siege tanks, to which I just mass speedbanes.
3. He is trying to be supercute, either taking a super fast third, or trying to incorporate ravens or banshees really early, or maybe even I just feel confident and he's less heavy on the siege tanks, to which I go mass roach.
So when I play against mech, I always feel kind of torn between these three options, and I feel I suffer in some games because I try to do all 3 of these, which just turns out to be worse than doing any one of them at all. I think that you should always beat 'the first push' with lair tech, as if you attempt hive before he first pushes, you will straight up die (8 broodlords, for example, takes 4 minutes and 2k gas to get, and that's only by banking the money beforehand and making corruptors early too).
Now there are 2 problems I run in to. So lets take the example of roach/hydra/corruptor in ZvP right - If he goes heavier on colossi, I go heavier on corruptors. If he goes heavier on gateway or immortals, I go heavier on hydras, and so on and so forth - my point is that the game becomes a balancing act between only 3 units you choose to make and improve/upgrade upon.
The 2 problems I run into, is because the 3 options I listed, are all completely different. If I go mutas, and it turns out he's going heavy turtle style turret/thor before moving out with critical mass or a few hunter seeker missiles, I'm fucked and would have been better served going mass roach. If I go mass roach, and it turns out he's playing mass siege tank style, then I'm fucked and should've went mutas.
Now I know there is sort of a give and take here - I can mass mutas, and even if he's massing thors, I'll be okay. But the issue there is that eventually, his 3 base deathball will just roll me over if I did 'the wrong choice', and it's entirely possible that he may be going, say, thor/hellion at first and not adding in siege tanks until much later, as they all come from factories with tech labs.
The next problem I run into, is mainly identifying mech. So I get lair, right, and throw down spire and baneling speed when it pops. I go scout, or even just scout with the mutas or ling pokes instead, and I don't even recognize it's mech until I've already thrown the spire down. Now maybe I could just cancel the spire, but even with the oversee poke, I'm not 100% sure he's doing one variation of mech or the other. If I go mass muta because I see lots of tanks instead of thors, only to find out he's being super cute and getting banshees and ravens, well, I'm kind of screwed because if I had went with mass roach I would've just overrun him right then and there and won the game.
So, you know, I'm just trying to wonder what you guys think in terms of how to respond to mech. I don't think infestors are right at all, and I'm aware a lot of people may not be familiar with going mass mutas to beat thors. And I win most of my vMech games, so I'm doing something right. But I just 'feel' kind of insecure, make sense?
Then the whole mech with ravens or banshees is a real bitch. If I didn't decide on roaches instead of mutas vRavens, or mutas instead of roaches vBanshees, then I'm kind of fucked there too. It's just kind of hard to scout out.
I feel like the best way to play against mech is to keep the spire I threw down as soon as I made lair, mass mutas, and contain him and respond from there (either roaches or speedbanes as necessary) but I'm not too sure. Mass muta works really good against less than 8 thors, but if I even spent any money at all on roaches, then I'm shit out of luck when he pushes out.
It's just kind of hard to scout what I need to scout. There's tiny little variations in mech that can be killer, and it's not like a balancing act of more roaches/more hydras/more corruptors, it's more like roaches are completely fucking useless against the mech you are up against, hopefully you massed mutas instead.
Anyways I'm not frustrated because I'm losing to mech. I'm frustrated because I feel like I'm lacking direction in the mid-game against mech, even if I usually win such games anyways at the end with BL/Infestor.
TLDR: Due how you can't tell what variation of mech the opponent is doing, and that you throw down a spire immediately getting lair anyways, I'm not sure what the 'perfect' response is. I am most comfortable using mass muta to beat mech, but that doesn't work well if they incorporate ravens or no siege tanks and instead lots more thors. I feel if you go hive too fast you'l die, so I always hold 'the first push' with lair tech, but my problem is I'm just not sure exactly what to do. I always feel sort of insecure as to whether to mass speedbanes, go mass roach, or go mass muta, but going mutas drastically cuts roaches and vice versa, so trying to do a mixture of these ends up really shitty.
I usually just go pure, mass muta and never roaches, but against 'cute' greedy mechers who take a super fast third or start pooling mass ravens, this ends up biting me in the ass when I could've killed them with pure roach, or even worse, I may just switch over to roaches, and then I've just done this halfass half roach bullshit with 10 useless mutas. I'm just wondering when is what the better choice, I suppose, I just feel sort of insecure vMech because I'm not sure whether to go mass muta or mass roach depending on what I come across, even if no matter what I do always wins anyways. I feel mass roach just sucks though.[/spoiler]
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Hey guys, I'm trying to work out hatch first in zvz, but I'm never sure if or when I should be getting gas. Should I be building crawlers, how many queens, when to get bane nest? Ahh, it's really confusing to me. Also, how does a hatch first hold 10p??
Thanks in advance, yo.
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You always should be getting gas. You need tech to hold against the opponent. Slowlings, queens, and spines will never hold against banelings or speedlings.
I go 14h15g14g, my baneling nest immediately when pool pops as I'll have 50 gas. If you see opponent went hatch first, you can afford to get speed before baneling nest, but you will need banes for defense when going hatch first vs pool first. If they do a 1 base roach build, you'll see it from miles away and you can just rely on speedlings, since you went speed before banes, or just spines+slowlings.
For queens, if the opponent went hatch first I'll get 2 queens. Otherwise, just 1 for defense at natural. Generally though, you won't need that much larva since 2 hatch no queen provides quite a bit of larva and you may need money more than larva to defend (either using banes, making spines, etc).
Hatch first will come out even against 10 pool with no drones/banes in it if you micro well and you'll have an extra base. 10 pool 8 drones pulled or 10 pool bane all-ins is a straight up BO win against hatch first, but those a very niche builds that only really work against hatch first so if your opponent is doing such coinflip builds on ladder, move on. If it's a BoX series, 10 pool is fine if you anticipate hatch first, or go 14/14 if you anticipate 10 pools.
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On November 16 2011 14:22 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +So i just played ZvP vs. FFE, pretty much same as i explained before, just tal darim. And he went into 2 stargates with only 3(!!) gas. Made 3 voids and followed phoenixes. Fortunatelly i defended but mainly because it's easier to take all queens to one spot on this map + he controlled poorly. So conclusion if you see no gas on natural only then 2 stargate is impossible, but considering that rarelly toss plays with 2 gases for that long, i can't really judge his build by just gases taken. No offense, but what league was this in? It sounds like your opponent was just bad (which is funny how it works out if your zerg tt). In any case, 3 gas means he could be doing single stargate, to which you need to confirm. He will have zero sentries, and his forge won't be upgrading (btw forge = 2nd most important thing to scout, either it's spinning or not for a reason). A 3 gas double stargate will just mean his stargate will come late. I mean, anyone make 2 stargate at 20 minutes into the game and maybe surprise you with mass void right? But you know why that doesn't work? Because you have high econ, and have access to units and spines. Well, a 3 gas double stargate just means it will be late, and your sac'd overlord or scouts should have confirmed enough that you would've made at least 1-2 spores total. Then you get that 'oh shit' moment, and you simply throw down lots of spores. Making a bunch of spores at 7:00, and he didn't do stargate or DT, will kill you. But making 10 spores at the 10:00 mark, when going fast third, is okay (okay, it's kind of an overreaction, and if he did end up doing something like mass gate you'd die, but you get my point. but making like 3 would be perfectly fine, even if he does mass gate attack). If you aren't sure what your opponent is doing on a FFE and you are still on hatch tech, it's okay to throw a few spores and queens up to stay safe, at the 10:00 mark. He has to reveal his hand by the 10:00 mark, and if he hasn't, you need to start panicking a bit.
Mid masters. So i again watched the replay and he was researching +1 upgrade while producing voids from double stargate from 3 gases :D Here is replay: + Show Spoiler +
Voids come at around 10+min, dunno is it that late? I don't have any AA apart queens and spores anyway, cause 3 base zerg does not go into fast lair.
On banshee part, don't say never use hydras. They don't need long term use, they just to defend allin without big loses. Have you watched Nestea vs. I think sC not long ago in GSL i think where he faced 2 port bashee and scouted even when banshees where far away flying, dropped bunch of spores but 4 banshees just snipe 1 by one everything. They have huge range and spores becomes useless cause they 2 shotted, queens as well 2 shotted. Then comes 2 more banshees and you are pretty much dead. He didn't defend even though he reacted quite well. But if you put hydra den, it will be ready very fast and hydras come very fast as well. And if you buy enough time with your queens to get hydras you defend this 1 base allin. OP was playing on close air spawns so there wasn't really any chance to get spores in time cause banshees where right in his base in few seconds.
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Hey guys, I've been reading the last few pages and I noticed Belial mention he has some problems with turtling terran. I find myself in the same boat. Every time I play this one buddy of mine, he turltles like a little bitch, and I take five bases and yet still when he pushes out with his huge force of marine/siegetank, with a couple of thors to help against muta. Sometimes I can beat it with a retarded number of spine crawlers, but every loss feels so SO bad. Like this last game, he (once again) turtles, and I harass with banelings and mutas, disrupt his economy a little, end up maxed out and throw a huge bunch of banes at him, but can't break in due to too many siege tanks. So I max out again, and attack strait up the middle with banes leading the charge followed by lings followed by mutas. He destroys all that, moves out with his own 200/200 army and kills me. This time I had been agressive all game so didn't build many spines. And my macro shoulda been better (nowhere near saturated on my five bases) but DAMNIT.
I think the main thing probably was my upgrades. they just weren't there. And I didn't magic box the thors effectively. But is there any general thing I'm missing? I guess infestors woulda helped... I dunno. Just looking for some general tips against turtle terran. God I'm so angry right now...
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ok ok. I've calmed down, had a nice shower.
Thought about it and yeah I didn't have such a great game. Plus I lied. I was on 4 bases not five.
And I was floating an ungodly amount of minerals, not all my gasses were up, and missed a ton of larva injects and had no macro hatches.
And it was fucking Crossfire. I have yet to beat him on crossfire is the thing. As Zerg at least... as terran I ruin him but that's because I find terran easier to play than zerg. Not like they're overpowered. Just with my low APM and horrible mechanics and decision marking I find I do way way better as terran than zerg. But I love the challenge as zerg, and a wins feel so much better as zerg... but my sweet fuck some losses hurt.
I think the main thing is probably I didn't build a single fucking roach, and those coulda saved my ass as well as helped my mineral float problem.
Still, definitely looking for any advice.
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Hello, I am a high gold player and I was just wondering how do you avoid going into a mutalisk race in ZvZ? About half of the zvz's that I play have the other player just rushing to mutas for the harassment and so he can pick off my ovies. Sometimes I win sometimes I lose. When I lose though it is because I cannot defend from the harassment well and I cannot expand. What should I do to avoid this and what is a good move to make when I see that the opponent gets mutas or is going for them?
I go roach/hydra when i see this but hydras are just so slow and they eat up all my supply when I leave them at home to protect. Spore crawlers are not really much help once they get more than 8 mutas.
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On November 16 2011 00:34 Alpina wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 23:38 Umpteen wrote:On November 15 2011 21:32 Alpina wrote:On November 15 2011 19:04 Umpteen wrote:Quick question about delayed 2-port banshee: http://replayfu.com/download/5dH3ckThis has happened to me a couple of times now. After seeing no super-fast gas and stealing one of them, and seeing a hellion with a ling on his ramp, and sacrificing two overlords, I was pretty damn surprised to see banshees with cloak arriving two at a time. Obiously the fact I couldn't see anything in his base ruled out mass barracks (unless proxied, but that's a different problem), but I was erring on the side of BFH, possibly with medivacs. First question : How should I have read what he was doing? Should I have just accepted that I couldn't tell if he was going mass hellion or banshees and made queens/spores? Also I find two-port banshee hard to deal with at the best of times - I don't think I've ever successfully defended it, in fact. I've seen it coming, made spores and queens, but he just backs off and doesn't commit until he has a critical mass that one-shots my queens, at which point I'm dead. If I try to get a lair up to go muta or hydra, the lack of queen production just gets me killed that much sooner. Second question: What the heck do I do versus 2-port banshee anyway? I guess having 4 queens in total just in case never bad idea, especially when you see he has no expand and doing something tricky. Also get hydra den asap after the lair if you see banshees, because what he did was an allin anyways. Are you sure about the hydra? I ask for two reasons: 1. I've tried hydra before, and because they're so fat and low-range and stream in off two bases they all get picked off before they can shoot. 2. Going hydra just seems like an invitation for the terran to swap an addon, make a couple of tanks and drag the game out for another thirty minutes. Wouldn't it be better to go spire instead? They have nothing to fear from popping out one at a time, and can actually go and DO something afterwards. Obivously spire is 10x times better, but the thing is that spire comes much much later. You may lose a game in that time. Also keep in mind that his gas was stolen, so his banshees came a little later. And don't be afraid that he is going to counter hydras - he was doing allin, so if you defend banshees you gonna defend anything he will throw at you. Also you had very low amount of drones, dunno what is your level but you need to drone much more in the begining. Those roaches were not useful as well. You had like 29 drones at 9 minute. You should has at least 45-50.
I have to go with the guy saying 'don't go hydra' here: what he describes (the banshees racking up and killing hydra faster than I can make them) is exactly what I've experienced.
About the drones, roaches etc:
I'm struggling pretty hard in silver at the moment, and frankly every time I even try to drone as much as you describe, I die. I made the roaches because I suspected either some marines or hellions incoming, and if it's more than a couple of hellions then - for me at least - not having a good number of roaches waiting is usually game over. Mind you, if he goes mech it's invariably game over a few minutes later anyway
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On November 16 2011 00:18 Ahelvin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 15 2011 22:59 Steel wrote:On November 15 2011 22:40 Ahelvin wrote:
Hello fellow zerg, and thank you for all the valuable input you provide...
I'm a platinum zerg, and I feel like I'm starting to get a good grip on ZvP, especially when the protoss is FFE (thanks to RoyalFlush's guide on delayed lair). However, I recently lost quite stupidly to a FFE -> 2 stargate (2 VR then chrono 4-5 phenixes) -> Very fast third into collossus.
I scouted the double SG a bit late thanks to an overseer (when he already had the VR and 2 phenixes, but didn't moved out yet).
My reactions :
1°) I threw down two spore at each base.
2°) I went Hydras/Roaches to defend (he didn't lose his VR and phenixes) and then tried to push when I realized he was taking his third but my push was so slow that when I got to his base in time I only traded a few roaches and hydras VS a few stalkers and a collossus
3°) He then proceeded to kill me with a standard VR/Collo/Stalker deathball and did it pretty convincgly since my 4th was so late and almost inexistant
My questions :
1°) My econ took a huge dent from the precautionnary Spores. Was it too much of an investment?
2°) Hydras are awful. Like incredibly awful. I hate them. How should I react to a double stargate? Should I counter immediately with a lot of roaches (Mondragon style?)
3°)If Hydras are the answer to double stargate, how to prevent the toss from taking a very fast third? Do I need to take my 4th and power shitloads of roaches while keeping a few hydras to defend?
Thanks a lot, I'm a bit lost after this game, and I'm really willing to improve. Keep in mind that I'm bad and made a lot of mistakes in this game (I wouldn't have lost to a plat player if I didn't), but I'd like to have a stereotypical reaction in mind to a double stargate after FFE (I'm quite prone to brainfarts when it come to improvisation :p). Hi. I'm a high masters zerg and this is how I deal with this. It may not be the best way but it seems to be the only thing that works. Unfortunately, hydra's are your only option early on. This strategy is actually quite common especially on the Korean server. They often go ahead and keep making phoenixes which are good against hydras in low numbers. I like to put down one spore at every base and get gas sooner. I'm talking three extractors when your third is close to finishing. My first one hundred gas goes into ling speed, the second hundred gas into +1 range, and then lair. This strategy is so common that I rather change my opening because I'm not going to scout it. Good protoss' will basically never let you scout it before overseer and it's already too late if you have no precautions. When I don't scout any units/large amount of gateways (5+) by the time lair is done I put down the hydra den. If you don't get your hydra's out before his phoenix count gets out of control, you lost. A little bit about spire: You can go for mutalisk but anyone with decent control will out micro you badly and you'll die to a small gateway force. After I control the air with hydras, I want to figure out if he's going to keep making air units, go colossus, or do something like a zealot archon timing. I also want to see if he took his third. Overlord speed can help you with that. If he took his third you can try to pressure it with roaches but it always depends on the map layout. You can get your fourth and work your way towards spire unless he's going high templar. Basically, it all boils down to not taking too much damage from the stargates. General tips: - Don't send out any overlords after your first two. It's too risky. If you lose 6+ overlords because you spread them around, SG did enough damage, and chances are you'll even take more damage since you're so supply blocked you can't make hydras. SG play has that kind of domino effect. - The sooner you get your hydras out, the sooner you can deflect stargate, the sooner you can transition out of hydras. You're right, Hydra's SUCK but it's your only option at this point. Mutas suck and corruptors are expensive and leave you really exposed to gateway timings. Hydra is truly the only way to deal with this. -In this regard, stop delaying your lair. I know you want to get your econ up, but having a Lair quickly enables you to figure out what is going on and have the available tech to deal with it. -Stay ahead on upgrades. Stargate play will inevitably delay his upgrades (not as much now, but still). So you want to get yours up. Sometimes when I take very little damage from double SG, I like to get overlord speed and drop and do a +2 timing: I drop all my hydras in his main (get a nice round number like 12 or 16) and then get a bunch of roaches with speed to attack his third or natural. He can hardly defend both if you didn't take damage from his SG. Make sure you check where the phoenixes are before you drop though. Sorry I don't have exact timings, I think everyone is pretty much figuring out this new trend, but I hope this helps you a little. Thank you for taking the time to answer me, and there are some good pieces of advice in your post However, I'm more concerned about the opening you recommand. While it's surely very good against FFE into double SG, I'm afraid I would straight up die to any heavy WG all-in if I take my gases so early... I usually take my third at 23 supply upon scouting a FFE (I go 14p/15h/23third/32 two gases usually), and taking so much gas early on would starve me on minerals. Is there any way I could not lose to this opening while taking my usual fast third? Or do I need to revamp my opening? I have my lair tech at 7:30/8 minutes usually... My Go-To opening VS FFE, if you want to have a look.
I have a solution for you sir!
You are correct that getting more gas quickly for hydras does indeed ruin your eco? Also Getting a spire takes 2.5 weeks......
Hydras DO WORK, but lately great toss's are baiting you to make hydras so they can do a robo switch and roll over your hydra army.
So what are your options?
Spores, they can work BUT unless your make 4 at each base, a great toss will micro around them. Plus, you lose a drone for each spore.
What I have been doing is throwing down my spire, BUT! I mass queens. (queens? you friggen insane?) yes I am.
The plus's: They cost just min. Dont lose a drone. Are mobile. You can spread creep. You can mass transfuse if they do a 2 star gate, WP timing push where you have: E.G. 7-9 queens and roaches.
And if you are feeling very frisky, you can do a slow off creep queen counter attack, after you roflstomp the push.
I have many Vids of this. Most vs Masters, 1 vs, an EX grandmasters. Let me know if you want to look at them.
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Are there any stable (ie long term macro oriented) styles of play that involve mutas in ZvP? They're my favorite unit, and I die a little more inside for every roach I make...
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On November 16 2011 14:55 KimJongChill wrote:
Hey guys, I'm trying to work out hatch first in zvz, but I'm never sure if or when I should be getting gas. Should I be building crawlers, how many queens, when to get bane nest? Ahh, it's really confusing to me. Also, how does a hatch first hold 10p??
Thanks in advance, yo.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=199583)
Thats how I hatch first. If you want to do the baneling nest instead of the roach warren do that then. I get my gas at 17 supply.
Um I drone scout so I normally see the 10P before I even put down the hatch so I just put down a pool. But drones are better then slow lings if micro'd correctly so you should be able to hold a 10 pool without losing to many drones.
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On November 18 2011 00:45 EndOfLine wrote:
I have a solution for you sir!
You are correct that getting more gas quickly for hydras does indeed ruin your eco? Also Getting a spire takes 2.5 weeks......
Hydras DO WORK, but lately great toss's are baiting you to make hydras so they can do a robo switch and roll over your hydra army.
So what are your options?
Spores, they can work BUT unless your make 4 at each base, a great toss will micro around them. Plus, you lose a drone for each spore.
What I have been doing is throwing down my spire, BUT! I mass queens. (queens? you friggen insane?) yes I am.
The plus's: They cost just min. Dont lose a drone. Are mobile. You can spread creep. You can mass transfuse if they do a 2 star gate, WP timing push where you have: E.G. 7-9 queens and roaches.
And if you are feeling very frisky, you can do a slow off creep queen counter attack, after you roflstomp the push.
I have many Vids of this. Most vs Masters, 1 vs, an EX grandmasters. Let me know if you want to look at them.
I do this too, especially if they go double stargate. Queens are actually surprisingly good against colossi and deathballs in general, and they're useful all game, unlike those crappy hydras
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I want to switch races and stop playing zerg but Hots is coming out. What should I do?
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On November 18 2011 04:59 Effay wrote:
Are there any stable (ie long term macro oriented) styles of play that involve mutas in ZvP? They're my favorite unit, and I die a little more inside for every roach I make...
 3 Hatch Muta/Ling (vs. Protoss)
is a good build.
Muta playstyles in ZvP are a bit tricky. You really have to be on edge with your scouting if you want success, and you won't always be able to have your way with muta production. A 2base gateway timing push will likely destroy you outright if you don't get roaches out, as they tend to hit before you manage to get a respectable amount of mutas. Stargate openings also are dangerous for a muta based build, as phonixes tend to shred mutas apart. It's neccesary to have a roach warren up in case a push comes.
However, if the P gears up to take a passive third, you've pretty much got the game in the bag.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-241834.jpg)
