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o_O hokay um....
some guy went FFE (... he didn't actually expand wtf... so more like gets a forge but I 11p'd so he 2gate) into stargate (which I saw) and then finally put down a nexus, and then made 2 robos (which I didn't see).
I had 3 bases up and droned up and then went for spire (didn't see anything harassing me so I went mutas, he was going vr's anyways)
... then pushed with like 6-7 immortals and a ton of stalkers (some zealots) and then rolled me cause I panicked and made a bunch of roaches after making about 8-9 or so mutas and then died
How do you beat immortal stalker (who also can warp in zealots)
.........well I mean the composition to beat it in general when I already made a spire. I could've sent some lings to check what he had but I wouldn't know what to build....
>_<
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Someone wrote on a previous page that you should never make hydras in ZvZ.
I just got trounced by roach/hydra and I had equal numbers of units as straight roach, equal upgrades. Should I assume I engaged incorrectly or do hydras have a place in a ground army ZvZ?
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Hydras r good. They provide higher dps than roaches. But the bad thing abt hydras is that they r extremely paper. In a pure hydra vs roach the hydras will get stomped. So basically to make things work, u want roaches to tank for them. Hydras at back give a better arc since they have higher range than roaches. Basically more things are shooting at anytime. But it's important not to overbuild hydras. You shld also reinforce with roaches since hydras shld not be dying much. The worst thing abt hydras is if u lose the battle u can't retreat since they r ridiculously slow off creep. So when tt happens all ur hydras get picked off by roaches which essentially means u prob lost the game.
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On November 11 2011 08:35 zhurai wrote:
o_O hokay um....
some guy went FFE (... he didn't actually expand wtf... so more like gets a forge but I 11p'd so he 2gate) into stargate (which I saw) and then finally put down a nexus, and then made 2 robos (which I didn't see).
I had 3 bases up and droned up and then went for spire (didn't see anything harassing me so I went mutas, he was going vr's anyways)
... then pushed with like 6-7 immortals and a ton of stalkers (some zealots) and then rolled me cause I panicked and made a bunch of roaches after making about 8-9 or so mutas and then died
How do you beat immortal stalker (who also can warp in zealots)
.........well I mean the composition to beat it in general when I already made a spire. I could've sent some lings to check what he had but I wouldn't know what to build....
>_<
the best composition to win heavy stalker immortal would be roach hydra with a heavy hydra composition. However since u have invested in muta ling. Ur best shot would b harress with muta hoping he will turn b. Mass spine n build more lings n muta. Lings do pretty well again mass stalkers provided u have good upgrades on lingsand if they do nt have alot of sentries. Just engage with spine lings n muta. Anyway one advice if u Wanna go for muta play against toss. If u don't c a third base early on. U shld prob throw at least 4 spines. Initially it is very dfiicult to hold off timing Attack since ur muta hasn't gotten u a siginificant advantage.
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On November 11 2011 08:35 zhurai wrote:
o_O hokay um....
some guy went FFE (... he didn't actually expand wtf... so more like gets a forge but I 11p'd so he 2gate) into stargate (which I saw) and then finally put down a nexus, and then made 2 robos (which I didn't see).
I had 3 bases up and droned up and then went for spire (didn't see anything harassing me so I went mutas, he was going vr's anyways)
... then pushed with like 6-7 immortals and a ton of stalkers (some zealots) and then rolled me cause I panicked and made a bunch of roaches after making about 8-9 or so mutas and then died
How do you beat immortal stalker (who also can warp in zealots)
.........well I mean the composition to beat it in general when I already made a spire. I could've sent some lings to check what he had but I wouldn't know what to build....
>_<
hydra-ling is good against immortal+stalker. Basically if you see all he has leftover is stalkers+immortals or just pure stalker, reinforce with hydra-ling and you will be much more cost effective than hydra-roach.
But if theres more zealots you'll want roach or baneling, assuming theres a sizable amount of zealots.
Oh, if you were going muta-ling you'd probly want ling baneling muta against his immortal stalker. Going banelings reactively if he makes a big # of zealots. Though with muta-ling against protoss usually the most ideal way to play it is counter attack+spine crawlers.
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@answers to my last question: thanks, I guess I should've laid down a crap load more spines >_<
Hmm another question. in ZvZ... I see people keep talking about how we should go hatch first/etc/whatever...
From Idra's stream, I actually see him going 14/14 but only doing hatch first in certain occations, such as close by air, or maps like taldarim. (I don't think he 9 scouted).
Also around my level (plat), I find people randomly just plain go 7pool-9pools in their ZvZ's or something too... so I'm not entirely sure if I should switch to hatch first -_-'.../etc.
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I really feel gas first or Hatch first is really a matter of preference. In ZvT and ZvP, zerg is more or less vowed to be the macro player, but in Z v Z, this does not make sense! one has to be the agressor, the other the defender.
14 gas 14 pool is played at the highest level, and I am not sure at all it is a bad choice, especially as with speedling expand it's really not hard to catch up in economy (as the other player has to defend). It can lead to very aggressive variations with big baneling busts, or a more macro game, and this uncertainty is in itself an advantage to you.
(To be honest, I suspect there a kind of "macro habit" amongst zerg higher players which leads them to favor macro, but which is not necessarily justified in z v z).
(low master opinion).
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On November 12 2011 05:23 zhurai wrote:
@answers to my last question: thanks, I guess I should've laid down a crap load more spines >_<
Hmm another question. in ZvZ... I see people keep talking about how we should go hatch first/etc/whatever...
From Idra's stream, I actually see him going 14/14 but only doing hatch first in certain occations, such as close by air, or maps like taldarim. (I don't think he 9 scouted).
Also around my level (plat), I find people randomly just plain go 7pool-9pools in their ZvZ's or something too... so I'm not entirely sure if I should switch to hatch first -_-'.../etc.
I'd say that you should master 14/14 first. It's aggressive,game ending, and improves your micro.
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On November 11 2011 11:33 Mjolnir wrote:
Someone wrote on a previous page that you should never make hydras in ZvZ.
I just got trounced by roach/hydra and I had equal numbers of units as straight roach, equal upgrades. Should I assume I engaged incorrectly or do hydras have a place in a ground army ZvZ?
Hydras are sick if you got a good concave and a decent roach wall. Hydras outDPS roaches, but they do not have much HP and are light armour.
Edit: To the guy saying IdrA does not use hydras - yes he does. He used it @ ESWC and have done on stream.
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So I'm just wondering what you guys think is the best reaction to an early aggressive mass BFH is. And I'm not talking about 4, I'm talking like 6+. I've lost to it twice in ladder today and I find it quite frustrating.
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I'd say that you should master 14/14 first. It's aggressive,game ending, and improves your micro.
No, it's not. It's game ending and aggressive against bad players, diamond players. At low masters, people who hatch first can easily stop any 14/14 aggression and then be miles ahead against someone who went 14/14 and stupidly didn't try to catch up with a 21 hatch. I assure you, any aggression from a 14/14 when going hatch first only means that the hatch firster will do a roach all-in later and you will have no possible way to hold. Even better, they can get a lair with it too, so if the off chance you made 5+ spines to hold it, they have lair too, and you screwed yourself so hard trying to defend against the possible all-in. Or they could just see you ruined your econ to defend against it, and then they just take a third super fast and lololol.
But yea, if you want to stay in diamond (or you want to make it harder to get to masters) just 14/14 ling/bane everyone. It's not like you won't get to masters doing it, you just won't be masters material. Kind of like that whole "I 6 pooled to GM" thread.
And 14/14 is defensive against earlier pools, so I don't know why you think it's an 'aggressive opening'.
Hydras are sick if you got a good concave and a decent roach wall. Hydras outDPS roaches, but they do not have much HP and are light armour.
Edit: To the guy saying IdrA does not use hydras - yes he does. He used it @ ESWC and have done on stream
Was this recent? Because his stream in the last few weeks, and his games in the last few weeks, he never makes hydras, and he even says how easy it is to deal with hydras. Go to sc2casts and the last collection of "Idra vs multiple players" shows it.
Yes, with a sick concave, ranged units will beat other ranged units. That's why with your ranged units, you should get a better concave. And while roach/hydra can be okay, the gas is better spent on speedbanes or infestor tech. A roach/hydra timing won't be enough to kill a pure roacher with defenders advantage either.
There was a game at the GSL where nestea and his opponent both went roach/hydra though. I think it was because the map (Dual Sight) was really, really bad for muta play (super open naturals, short rush distance) and nestea took a super fast third and the early-game was very back and forth (mutas work better when you didnt get a 100 supply lair, as both players will have a high econ generally to make it so mutas aren't as effective).
I just got trounced by roach/hydra and I had equal numbers of units as straight roach, equal upgrades. Should I assume I engaged incorrectly or do hydras have a place in a ground army ZvZ?
Roach/Hydras as an army can do well against other armies. But the hydras are extremely weak, and the backbone of it, so you need to engage correctly. You can't just engage head-on necessarily, you have to engage in a way where the hydras are being fired upon. If you can't get a flank with your much faster army, simply hug up to his army with your roaches so that everything is in range. The point of hydras is that the money is better spent on either infestors, or mutas. When it gets to 15+, mutas rape hydras 1v1 (not for cost obviously, just for supply) and muta/speedbane does too.
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On November 12 2011 14:16 Belial88 wrote:Show nested quote +I'd say that you should master 14/14 first. It's aggressive,game ending, and improves your micro. No, it's not. It's game ending and aggressive against bad players, diamond players. At low masters, people who hatch first can easily stop any 14/14 aggression and then be miles ahead against someone who went 14/14 and stupidly didn't try to catch up with a 21 hatch.
Belial! Why not being a bit more cautious in your assumptions? this is really not true! I am low master and everyday I win against masters who do not know how to defend against 14 gas 14 pool followed by baneling bust! This doesn't mean you should go for it every single game, or that you always win going baneling bust, but saying that it is easily stopped is just inaccurate.
Many high level players go 14 gas 14 pool. Plus going 14 gas 14 pool is completely different from 6 pooling! It just leads to aggressive strats, but is not all in by any mean, in the sense that you can transition out of early aggression without ending the game and without being behind (although you can make it all inish if you decide to).
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On November 12 2011 16:32 Macpo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 12 2011 14:16 Belial88 wrote:I'd say that you should master 14/14 first. It's aggressive,game ending, and improves your micro. No, it's not. It's game ending and aggressive against bad players, diamond players. At low masters, people who hatch first can easily stop any 14/14 aggression and then be miles ahead against someone who went 14/14 and stupidly didn't try to catch up with a 21 hatch. Belial! Why not being a bit more cautious in your assumptions? this is really not true! I am low master and everyday I win against masters who do not know how to defend against 14 gas 14 pool followed by baneling bust! This doesn't mean you should go for it every single game, or that you always win going baneling bust, but saying that it is easily stopped is just inaccurate. Many high level players go 14 gas 14 pool. Plus going 14 gas 14 pool is completely different from 6 pooling! It just leads to aggressive strats, but is not all in by any mean, in the sense that you can transition out of early aggression without ending the game and without being behind (although you can make it all inish if you decide to).
I kind of agree with you. You should stop talking like you know everything about zerg and be a bit easy on what's bad and what's not. It's just like you had a fucking revelation and suddenly started posting everywhere about your new knowledge of the zerg race. It's getting quite annoying.
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Belial! Why not being a bit more cautious in your assumptions? this is really not true! I am low master and everyday I win against masters who do not know how to defend against 14 gas 14 pool followed by baneling bust! This doesn't mean you should go for it every single game, or that you always win going baneling bust, but saying that it is easily stopped is just inaccurate.
Many high level players go 14 gas 14 pool. Plus going 14 gas 14 pool is completely different from 6 pooling! It just leads to aggressive strats, but is not all in by any mean, in the sense that you can transition out of early aggression without ending the game and without being behind (although you can make it all inish if you decide to).
High level players go for 14/14 in a BOX series, when metagaming is a big part of the game. On ladder, yea, I'll hatch first every time. When it's a BO3 against someone I've competed with before, there is no way I'm going to hatch first on Tal Darim.
At low masters, yes, you can get away with 14/14 baneling aggression and outright kill hatch firsters. But at the 'normal' level of play (ie, when people play correctly) that should never happen.
Don't get me wrong. If you aren't worried about making high masters, doing 14/14 is a great way to play zerg. It's fun, ling/bane aggression is cool... you know, like 4 gating can be fun too. But when you fight that right person, they'll make it look easy by just having 2 banelings ready for you and a spine. And then he's made 2-3 drones the whole time. Hell, you may not even notice, as you may go to mid+ game where the early game is less relevant (you'll look back on a loss saying 'aww i should've had burrow' or a win as 'haha my mutas fucked him up' when it was really just a macro lead from early game).
I kind of agree with you. You should stop talking like you know everything about zerg and be a bit easy on what's bad and what's not. It's just like you had a fucking revelation and suddenly started posting everywhere about your new knowledge of the zerg race. It's getting quite annoying.
It's more like I don't have time to play right now, and so post here instead of doing what I normally would be able to do, play. I'd love to get feedback on what I say. If you think what I say is wrong, please, let me know, because more than once I've been corrected. But usually, it's when someone is willing to go through a custom with me to work out something specific, not because they have their panties in a bunch.
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Hi guys !
I'm in a little house tournament and we play Xel Naga as first map and I'd like to know good openers and strat for each matchup.
I've checked liquipedia and I need confirmation that those are good to use:
ZvP: I like to get 14/14 (speed is crucial to deny scouting...or can i NOT get it?) then hatch around 20. At around 36 food i get 7-8 roachs then speedling and put pressure on him. (at 36 food im not all inning, just want to kill the sentries).
ZvZ: I'm not sure but I would do a 9-10 scout with drone to check if opponent is early pool, then drop a 10 pool if so.
Otherwise I'm not sure what's the best opening, I've heard 14/14 aint the best on 2 player small maps. My main strat is mostly roaches + infestor...if mutas I can adapt.
ZvT: 9 Scout (check 2 rax), if yes I just 14/14 then hatch at 20. If no 2 rax, 15 hatch 14 gaz 14 pool. Basic strat is watching around 6:30 for terran expo is no I stay 2 base muta ling bane, if he expo I take a third waiting for mutas then harass
Can you confirm if I'm correct or there would be better build/strat?
Thx
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these all sound very normal viable strats, unless you play at high level in which case you may need more precise things.
A few remarks before your games start though :
you may want something more precise for Z v Z , cause "infestors and roaches" is not really a game plan . I may suggest 14 gas 14 pool, to get zergling speed, and then depending on what you see, go attack with banelings or expand quickly. then transition to roaches when you feel safe and have a correct economy.
in ZvT you could probably expand first even if he 2raxes you, but no big deal if you feel safer to go 14 gas 14 pool. if no two rax, and you decide to go hatch first, you can delay spawning pool and gas up to 17 (but no big deal here).
Your Z v P plan sounds perfectly normal, to the condition that protoss is not forge fast expanding (which shouldn't be the case on xel naga caverns). if that would be the case, you may wanna think about taking a third before teching and attacking. Although some kind of all in may always do the job!
Good luck with your games
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ZvP: I like to get 14/14 (speed is crucial to deny scouting...or can i NOT get it?) then hatch around 20. At around 36 food i get 7-8 roachs then speedling and put pressure on him. (at 36 food im not all inning, just want to kill the sentries).
ZvZ: I'm not sure but I would do a 9-10 scout with drone to check if opponent is early pool, then drop a 10 pool if so.
Otherwise I'm not sure what's the best opening, I've heard 14/14 aint the best on 2 player small maps. My main strat is mostly roaches + infestor...if mutas I can adapt.
ZvT: 9 Scout (check 2 rax), if yes I just 14/14 then hatch at 20. If no 2 rax, 15 hatch 14 gaz 14 pool. Basic strat is watching around 6:30 for terran expo is no I stay 2 base muta ling bane, if he expo I take a third waiting for mutas then harass
Can you confirm if I'm correct or there would be better build/strat?
The 11th/12th drone (ie you make 11/12 drone when overlord pops, rally as scout) can see such information just fine even on larger 4 player maps. I scout at 11/12, but really, it would be best to scout on 13. You will see what you need to in time. It's about scouting what you need, when you need it, not before. Make sense?
Okay so you wouldn't do anything different in your build when you arrive at 15 supply if it was 1 rax or 2 rax right? The only difference is when you hit around 20 supply, because you want to know if you want to make 2 queens or 1 queen and a bunch of lings.
In ZvZ you often don't drone scout, but in general a 13 drone will always arrive on time. I send 11/12 (since both made at same time you know) but that's probably a bad habit. All you really want to see is if they get speed or not (you hold early pools with micro, you dont need to scout to know a bunch of ling sin your base, your overlord will see hatch first, etc).
ALso, ling speed is bad against 2 rax. This is because your ling speed will never be ready in time against 2 rax. That's why no one gets early gas in zvt, they just hatch first. You can defend 2 rax with drones+lings, 4 drones will handle a marine fine, just make sure no bunker is up (keep overlord at natural, attack with 4 drones if he starts making one), and then put a spine when you can to make sure he cant 2 rax scv all-in you. hatch first is safer than 14/14 too, btw. If he 2 raxes you and you went 14/14, he can just bunker contain you. YOu have to hatch first against 2 rax to get creep up for spines on natural, otherwise 2 rax scv all-in will rape you.
I'm sure you'll be fine. 14/14 is okay in vz and vp.
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I have a slight problem in facing Terran and sometimes toss when I play... I normally encounter some sort of Banshee or Void harrass... I defend if with some (3) spore crawlers and 2 queens... But then they come in with an army... And I lose right there... How can I work on making this better?
PS I am Bronze. :S
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I'd really love to have an answer.
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EPT
