The Zerg Help Me Thread - Page 116

On November 10 2011 00:31 ElJefe wrote:
I am having a lot of trouble with early scouting. What i mean is around 5:30 i send in a sacrificial overlord, but then i am not sure how to scout before i can get changlings. If I try to poke up the ramp with a ling the terran is walled off and protoss has his army there. Having his army there i do get to see the army composition but I feel at this point in the game i need to be seeing buildings also. If I send in a slow overlord it will die before i see anything important. What is the best way to scout after 5:30 and before lair?

On November 10 2011 10:24 Zoomacroom wrote:
I have kind of an unorthodox opening in ZvP and I'm not sure if it's crazy. Usually people go 14 gas/14 pool, 15 hatch, or 11 hatch/18 pool. However, I don't usually build a lot of lings in the very early game (only 2-4), so I'm usually okay with delaying speed, but I still want to get lings/queen out fast enough to stop hatch blocking.

So I've been going 14 pool/16 gas/15 overlord. It seems more economical than 11 pool and gets me my gas when I need it. Is this a total crap build/is it strictly inferior to another build that accomplishes the same thing?

On November 10 2011 01:54 courtpanda wrote:
whats the best unit comp against chargelot archon?

On November 09 2011 14:11 Amaterasu1234 wrote:
So! mid-master z here again!

Background: I'm getting tired of muta battles 'cause I ALWAYS lose them no matter what. I don't understand why but wtf ever...there's a solution: infestors. I tried infestors on the ladder yesterday and had some success (except I was unaware that one fungal no longer takes out blings...you need two...this lost me the game but...the hope was inspired)

Scenario: I open 15 hatch mass ling, often defending a 14 14 blings before counterattacking with a ton of lings.

1st Question: with 15 hatch mass ling, should I pull drones off gas, especially knowing full well that I will undoubtedly be going infestors?

Continuing scenario...so, I feel like I get my lair too early in so far as I'm often on like...40 drones on two bases when my lair pops, at which point I morph an overseer and drop the infestation pit. At the same time, by putting my drones on gas early and catching up on mineral-mining drones later, I get more gas. Either way, I often have enough to drop two spores at each mineral line and make two additional queens while I wait for my infestors to pop, at which point I start getting hydras.

2nd Question: usually the bling player is playing catch up with me as they're caught off guard by the mass ling attack so...there's no aggression and I'm aggressively scout with my lings. I feel I should be taking an earlier third. Agreed? (btw, seriously, I really hate the rocks on tal darim and shattered). By taking an earlier third, I know I'd be able to produce infestors then hydras, totally shutting down mutas, then make a ton of roaches and go for an attack.

3rd Question: for the inevitable attack, how many infestors do you think are necessary? Frankly, I like to produce 6-7

4th question: What's generally a good supply to attack at? I like to go around 150, before my opponent maxes out on lings/blings and/or starts upgrading again.

Thx for the help

Edit: Just played a game where I did exactly what the scenario said...and here's the replay!!

http://drop.sc/55342

I won...but I feel I could have done a few things better...or a lot...

On November 10 2011 00:31 ElJefe wrote:
I am having a lot of trouble with early scouting. What i mean is around 5:30 i send in a sacrificial overlord, but then i am not sure how to scout before i can get changlings. If I try to poke up the ramp with a ling the terran is walled off and protoss has his army there. Having his army there i do get to see the army composition but I feel at this point in the game i need to be seeing buildings also. If I send in a slow overlord it will die before i see anything important. What is the best way to scout after 5:30 and before lair?



Poking with a ling is your best bet until you get to Lair tech.

Vs Terran you want to look at marine count as well as looking for higher tech units such as tanks or hellions, prepare accordingly once you know what you're up against.

Vs Protoss look at sentry count. If you see 4+ sentries, he's unlikely to do anything but expand. If he has stalker zealot and only one or two sentries, scout vigilantly for an expansion. If he doesn't have one by the 6 min mark, produce nothing but roaches lings, and queens while getting detection and anti-air as fast as possible.

Don't ever make hydras in zvz.... ever.

taking a 'fast third' in zvz is never really a good idea

The point of mutas is not to kill drones or end the game or sneak up on him. It's to be safe against roach all-ins, roach/hydra attacks, and kill overlords and gain map control to give a small, tiny lead, so that you can respond with a bigger and better roach/infestor army if the opponent so chooses to go with that composition.

A lot of top players makes hydras in ZvZ including Stephano, NesTea and IdrA, arguably the best zergs in the world.

Many top players opt for a faster third as soon as they have complete map control. Stephano likes to do it before lair and before transitioning to roaches even. IdrA does it as well and even said on his stream that "fast thirds are very very good".

The point of mutas is to take an early third basically and get map control. A big roach all-in can still kill you even if you are going mutas if you're timings are a bit off, even by a small small amount.

Why don't I see burrow more often? I almost never see it at my own level (plat) or even when watching pro games. Generally I feel like people only get it when they want to burrow move things. It seems like a relatively inexpensive upgrade that can be fairly beneficial. So why not get it regardless? Is it a matter of cost? Or time spent upgrading could be used for ovie speed/transport?

Come on bro, you are a diamond/low masters player. You have a right to express your opinion but never say things like "NEVER get hydras herp derp", it just makes you look stupid.

On November 11 2011 01:33 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question for the zergs:

Why don't I see burrow more often? I almost never see it at my own level (plat) or even when watching pro games. Generally I feel like people only get it when they want to burrow move things. It seems like a relatively inexpensive upgrade that can be fairly beneficial. So why not get it regardless? Is it a matter of cost? Or time spent upgrading could be used for ovie speed/transport?

On November 11 2011 01:33 ThirdDegree wrote:
I have a question for the zergs:

Why don't I see burrow more often? I almost never see it at my own level (plat) or even when watching pro games. Generally I feel like people only get it when they want to burrow move things. It seems like a relatively inexpensive upgrade that can be fairly beneficial. So why not get it regardless? Is it a matter of cost? Or time spent upgrading could be used for ovie speed/transport?

On November 10 2011 23:30 Belial88 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +

You are losing because you are going mutas too quickly. Let me guess - you rush lair to get mutas before he does, you kill a few overlords with 8-10 mutas, and then he pushes back with some godly 15+ mutas and you die. Just get lair around 50 supply every game, don't worry about if he went lair faster or earlier. Just get spores to defend (if he made the earliest of lairs, at around 30ish supply, which you should know when he made it, then spores when you throw down your spire will be in time. If he's just slightly before you, just put them down when spire halfway, or when done).

If you are doing the julyzerg style double hatch inject speedling timing attack, then take off gas, if you are the agressor. I don't think it's a good build due to banelings just autowinning against it, but if you are the defender, using banes to defend, I recommend you keep them on gas because you'll need the gas. 8 banes is 200 gas, that's quite a bit, and a single geyser takes a long time to get 200 gas, and you still need ling speed.

Don't make overseers, don't make infestation pit. Why are you doing that? 100% of your gas needs to be mutas, mutas mutas! Get 3 gas then 4 quite early, but get your lair quite late. If you get an infestation pit, or baneling speed, or upgrades, your muta count will be wayyyyy too low. It's extremely unforgiving, having just 2 less mutas is enough to lose a game straight up.

If the opponent isn't getting mutas, obviously you just spine up. If he's getting tons of hydras, get speed banes. If he's getting infestors, just grab another base and get your own infestors. They take too long to come out, you'll have a running third while denying his with mutas.

Don't ever make hydras in zvz.... ever.

If you do an aggressive attack against a baneling player, chances are you are behind even if you did damage. taking a 'fast third' in zvz is never really a good idea, a roach timing can straight up kill you (which is granted, bad play, but if he sees your third he will do it). He can always gets his own mutas, if he is going baneling, then he will be able to defend you. Doesn't matter how many speedlings you have, 2-3 banes is all it takes to shut you down. Competent players wont let banes detonate on single banes either.

Infestors into hydras does not shut down mutas at all. They still kill all your overlords and force enough static defense that they can get a larger roach/infestor army on their own. They can also take a 'hidden' (more like faraway, since its not about secrecy, it's about distance) third/fourth for gas and just have a much bigger army. The nature of infestors, being casters and getting stronger over time, and their high cost and build time, means that you won't be able to push out with infestors for a veyr long time. Enough time for him to get his own roach/infestor and roflstomp you.

Of course, we already know that pure roach/infestor just smashes roach/hydra/infestor. So the fact he forced you to make hydras is a huge benefit to him, he just makes more infestors and pure roach and then just dominates you in a ground battle.

But if you don't get hydras, how do you defend against mutas? Well, faster infestors - but wait, that takes too long, I'll have to make a ton of static D and my third will be too delayed while he gets his. Yes, that's the point, that's why you always need a spire in ZvZ. If you are that uncomfortable with mutas, just make corruptors, turtle on 3 base, and get infestors after 5 corruptors to defend with.

Which is also bad, but at least not as bad as not getting a spire at all.

How many infestors are necessary to bust? At least 10. Having less begs that you'll run out of energy and get fucked. 6-7 infestors means about 10 FG. Unless you have absolutely perfect and extremely conservative FG, that won't work. You won't be able to afford any IT either. A pure roach/infestor player will just smash you, and so will spines sicne you won't have any ITs.

When to attack? Well with mutas you should be always poking and prodding. Generally, you make lots of infestors if the opponent is bad and sticking to some sort of roach/hydra/infestor play, and you will force him to all-in because your mutas will just tear him apart. Eventually he'll push, and you'll steamroll him with defenders advantage, a secure macro lead, and infestors.

Infestors are the siege tanks of ZvZ, never attack into them.

In a 'proper' ZvZ where both players are getting spire, the game is generally decided in the first 5 minutes of muta vs muta battle. It's extremely unforgiving, so one person lacking a single muta because they decided to make an infestation pit = GG. You have to rely on spores to defend (you can afford mass spores since minerals become so banked in muta wars), and once you have around 20 1/1 mutas, you can go for infestors. If you set up your third and fourth with spores, you can rely on the static defense to let you get infestors. If you catch your opponent totally fuck up, you can FG them and that's GG right there with a single FG. But if he sees the infestation pit he'll likely know about it.

Eventually the game basically turns into, if the mutas don't kill eachother (just losing a single muta and 10 seconds later your 20 vs 20 muta battle evaporates and you lost all of them and he has like 15 left), is to go higher tech.

You can either mass infestors, which are good if you are behind on mutas but able to stay alive through static D and good muta micro but bad to ultralisks, or you can go to ultralisks, which are good against infestors but bad against high muta counts. Generally it's about 3-4 base hive because ultras are so damn good against ling/small numbers of infestors/bane, faster than people would get broodlords with roach style play.

But 99% of the time the game is figured out by ling runbys and muta vs muta in the midgame. I don't think a game ever gets to hive unless someone fucked up and the other player decides to go hive instead of end the game then and there. You can't exactly turtle against 20 mutas. I guess it's when infestors pop that mutas start to fade out and hive becomes important, but it's extremely hard to fit in the committment to infestors when the muta vs muta battle is so tense.

The point of mutas is not to kill drones or end the game or sneak up on him. It's to be safe against roach all-ins, roach/hydra attacks, and kill overlords and gain map control to give a small, tiny lead, so that you can respond with a bigger and better roach/infestor army if the opponent so chooses to go with that composition.

Personally, I disagree with the quick overseer. It's something I've done for quite some time now and allows me to scout with ease, as opposed to attempting to sac a slow ovy. idk...I guess I value information over 50 gas :/

And I most certainly disagree with infestors taking too long. Infestors take ~130 seconds to get out (50 for the pit, 100 for pathogen glands, infestors start @ 31 of the pathogen glands upgrade). Mutas take ~133 seconds to get out (100 for spire, 33 for mutas), so, if anything mutas are in fact slower (by like 2-3 seconds). Now, yes, with infestors, you won't have map control, and be able to harass, allowing the other player to take a third, etc. Hence the reason I suggested attacking ~150 supply before they have a chance to tech because muta players like to spend their money on more mutas and +1 air atk/armor, which won't really help them vs roach/hydra/infestor.

I will agree with you about 10 infestors. With 6-7, I do often run out of energy, which is a huge problem. Obviously, this requires longer turtling, but the threat of infestors often drives mutas away, or into smaller numbers as they split them. I can live with that.

Continuing..."if the opponent is getting tons of hydra, get speed banes", means more gas spent on not infestors/mutas. Wonderful! Speed banes die to 2 fungals anyway, not to mention do very, very little to my roach front.

I'm willing to accept that the opponent will have a third that I don't have and be behind in that respect. But with well-placed fungals, I feel that roach/hydra/infestor is better than muta/ling/bling inosofar as it has more resilient units that can overcome the defenders advantage.

Nonetheless, thank you very much for the advice, and, when I do decide to go mutas, I will most certainly employ it! I just like having an option other than doing what my opponent is doing in a mirror match.