EPT[H]How to deal with 2 banshees with cloak as zerg
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TheWarbler
United States1659 Posts
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tackklee
United States270 Posts
Also if you send a ling up the ramp just to see what units he has at his door, you can usually get a good idea of what he's doing. Judging by if you see a tech lab on the rax, how many marines, maybe even a factory etc. If you aren't getting harassed by reapers or helions etc. Things like these are all indicators to whether or not hes going banshees. | ||
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TheFinalWord
Australia790 Posts
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Rigodon666
Canada183 Posts
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Jupiter.sKy
United States50 Posts
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Malabyte
Norway75 Posts
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mikell
Australia352 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On September 13 2010 01:51 TheFinalWord wrote: 1 overseer 3 queens beat 2 banshees don't they? Yea. If you had an overseer and 3 queens, I don't understand how you lost. Better unit control is all you need. | ||
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AngelusH
United States33 Posts
The problem I have is on a large map like Kulas where my queens are out of position and they can snipe one out. Also I hate it when they do a delayed rush of 4 banshees because it's still before I have mutas up and 4 banshees against 3 queens = gg | ||
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Fiel
United States587 Posts
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Eames
23 Posts
On September 13 2010 01:39 tackklee wrote: Always have that evolution chamber as early as your build allows. You'll need spore crawlers against any air harassment from all races. Also if you send a ling up the ramp just to see what units he has at his door, you can usually get a good idea of what he's doing. Judging by if you see a tech lab on the rax, how many marines, maybe even a factory etc. If you aren't getting harassed by reapers or helions etc. Things like these are all indicators to whether or not hes going banshees. LOL. Most Banshee builds start out with early Hellion/Marine Harass. | ||
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Panoptic
United Kingdom515 Posts
On September 29 2010 03:26 Eames wrote: LOL. Most Banshee builds start out with early Hellion/Marine Harass. Yup. My favourite build against Zerg is Reactor Hellion into Banshee. Gotta keep up the pressure otherwise those zerg might actually get dangerous! I also think mutas are the best play if they're investing in banshees. Hydras melt to hellions & tanks later. | ||
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Battlescore
United States61 Posts
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MicroJFox
United States38 Posts
On September 29 2010 03:31 Battlescore wrote: Just set up a perimeter of spore crawlers near your mineral lines. Keep your observer out with your army, following the rear. Your focus should be creating visibility and detection where you need it most. Mutas + obs are banshees worst nightmare. There's so much misinformation here I don't know where to start... Perimeter of spore crawlers = lots of minerals and drones, and you don't even know if they're going banshee... Plus you have 2 bases, so perimeter = 2 perimeters. Plus he can pick off stradling buildings outside of perimeter. By observer you must mean overseer. And vs. terran there is usually very little need for overseer with army, cloaked banshees and ghosts are predominately used on bases and won't do much to your mostly ling early army. There's no threatful cloaked unit like the DT. Also, why would your army be outside of your base? The time when first couple Banshee comes is waaaay before Zerg can begin playing offensively. Mutas come way after banshees. For those of you who don't know, refinery first + barracks, factory immediately after rax, build tech lab on factory right after starport starts is waaay before muta assuming you're playing a solid macro fast expansion game where you spend larvae predominantly on drones and speedlings. Also, terrans who go banshee pump marine and helion because banshee tree is gas heavy and light on minerals. Your only saving grace is cloak costs 200/200, banshees are 125 gas each, so it'll be awhile before 2 banshees can get cloak, but not too long for 2 banshees to first hit. Stick with the 3 queen + overseer. Use your 1 queen that has transfusion wisely. If you KNOW it's coming, make another queen. Creep spread perfectly early game to connect your bases. Spread your overlords in a perimeter around your base and keep your eyes on minimap for early alert (ironically, good spread of overlords make them susceptible to viking overlord hunting - damned if you do, damned if you don't right?) Once you see banshees make your overseer, and once they start hitting your mineral line move all your drones to your other base. Don't keep mining and losing drones, you'll be so behind it won't be funny (for anyone but your Terran opponent). Basically, Terran has uninterrupted macro, but if you forget one small detail or don't micro perfectly to fend off the banshees, you lose. | ||
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Battlescore
United States61 Posts
However, as a 1200 terran who almost always uses Banshees against zerg, what usually stops me dead in my tracks are spore crawlers, but I usually wait until I have 3 banshees to push. Please by all means, recommend zerg players don't put up spores, it makes things way easier for me because then all I'm having to worry about is overseer/mutas. If you're a good zerg, you probably have already scouted the terran base. I contest that if you KNOW banshees are coming, don't make a queen, make spores. They are effective in at least keeping my banshees away. I don't really want to sacrifice my banshees trying to take down a spore but I'll do it for a queen because it's one less unit for my bioball to worry about and it's a useful unit for zerg. Plus, having spores means you can have your overseer perform other duties, such as support your army. | ||
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MicroJFox
United States38 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:06 Battlescore wrote: Yes I mean overseer, mis-type. However, as a 1200 terran who almost always uses Banshees against zerg, what usually stops me dead in my tracks are spore crawlers, but I usually wait until I have 3 banshees to push. Please by all means, recommend zerg players don't put up spores, it makes things way easier for me because then all I'm having to worry about is overseer/mutas. If you're a good zerg, you probably have already scouted the terran base. I contest that if you KNOW banshees are coming, don't make a queen, make spores. They are effective in at least keeping my banshees away. I don't really want to sacrifice my banshees trying to take down a spore but I'll do it for a queen because it's one less unit for my bioball to worry about and it's a useful unit for zerg. Plus, having spores means you can have your overseer perform other duties, such as support your army. No disrespect, but 1200 doesn't actually add any weight to your suggestions, especially since you play Terran. I've beaten Terrans at the top of their diamond 1v1 ladder, and I've lost to a lot more. Of course sporecrawlers stop you dead in your tracks - that's what they're made to do - but it's a poor and over-eager response that hard-counters only air and leaves you falling behind. But you're playing against a player who willingly sacrificed drones, built an evo chamber he's not ready to use for upgrades, and spent a bunch of minerals on 5-6 spore crawlers. Just because he made huge sacrifices to stop your banshee harrass doesn't make him good, it just means he stopped your banshee harrass at costs he didn't need to incur. The only plausible way he could've scouted your starport is if he made an overseer right after tier 2, unless you freely let his overlords in your base or you don't block off vs. a zerg which, since you're 1200 terran, you are at least capable of doing. Or maybe you built your starport right behind your ramp and let his zerglings scout it, which again, I don't think you'd do unless you were feeling particularly charitable. Chances are you hide it in some nook where only an overseer could possibly find it. If he has an overseer already (the assumption I'm making, since he's scouted your banshees), he's wasting money and drones on spore crawlers, whose 50% utility comes from detection. 4 queens will easily kill 3 banshees with transfusion - and here's the kicker: 3 of them are already part of your basic gameplay, you're not going way out of your way and going crazy to stop a simple harrass, and you don't need larvae to make an extra queen. Queens also have creep spread and transfusion utility - spore crawlers sit there and grow moss. You're suggesting players trade in-game resources to make up for lack of out-of-game skill. I'm suggesting zerg players spend their resources elsewhere, and simply learn good game habits to counter banshees. I agree, if you're a good zerg you will scout your terran opponent's base with an overseer. However, as someone who isn't a good zerg, you don't know that a good zerg's response is 3-4 queens, not a desperate ditch to spore crawlers. Making 5-6 spore crawlers means 5-6 drones instant dead + 75 mineral per crawler (+ evo chamber, but that's useful at tier 2). That is more self-destructive than whatever harrassment you might've provided. | ||
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SilverPotato
United States560 Posts
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Pfeff
United States270 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:21 SilverPotato wrote: Get 2 queens and one spore crawler, then you can wait a bit on the overseer and you open up armor and damage upgrades for later on. This. If you don't have an evo up by the time you have mutas, or even lair at all you're doing something wrong. Plus if you had 3 queens that's like 4-5 tranfusions. I can promise those banshees won't still be alive after all that | ||
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mathemagician1986
Germany549 Posts
When his banshees come, make sure you have the queen with the extra energy at the back, so they don't snipe your only queen that can transfuse. You can also just start making extra queens. if you lose queens you'll have them, if you beat him back you can cancel them again. Queens build fairly quickly. spores is the easy way, but I suggest trying it purely with overseers. you don't want to diminish your drone count if you don't have to. | ||
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MicroJFox
United States38 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:25 Pfeff wrote: Plus if you had 3 queens that's like 4-5 tranfusions. I can promise those banshees won't still be alive after all that Not true, 2 of the queens cannot transfuse because they've been spawning larvae. Agree with mathemagician, keep transfusable queen safe. Also you can't make that guarantee - a good opponent will withdraw his damaged banshees instead of suicide running them for nothing. | ||
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Battlescore
United States61 Posts
If you have scouting problems, that's a whole 'nother issue. Zerg has the advantage of just floating in, take the chance and hope for some good intel before marine response. Another advantage of putting up spores is this isn't likely going to be the last time you'll see banshees. A couple well-placed spores could be enough AA defense to last you a long time. I know that if I'm going banshees and I start seeing spores going up, I'm likely to adjust my strategy to include less banshee. Plus evo chamber isn't exactly useless early on and I don't see the lack of skill in placing spores, or missile turrets for that matter. | ||
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zokj
Canada136 Posts
I'll usually do some sort of a two-base muta build against terran anyway, so i wouldn't call this a blind counter. After he sees mutas, the terran's army becomes predictable. Maybe some thor's, lots of marines. Success in the mid-to-late game is all scouting. Knowing when you can drone, and knowing when you have to morph banelings. I'm not trying to suggest that its an easy matchup, but this is what i'm aiming for vs. most terrans. Cannot underline enough the role scouting plays. At all points in the game. | ||
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bbulzibar
United States80 Posts
EDIT: Of course I mean put 1 spore only after you know they have banshees with cloak. Never put a spore up "just because" they might get banshees. | ||
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eH
88 Posts
On September 29 2010 04:06 Battlescore wrote: Yes I mean overseer, mis-type. However, as a 1200 terran who almost always uses Banshees against zerg, what usually stops me dead in my tracks are spore crawlers, but I usually wait until I have 3 banshees to push. Please by all means, recommend zerg players don't put up spores, it makes things way easier for me because then all I'm having to worry about is overseer/mutas. If you're a good zerg, you probably have already scouted the terran base. I contest that if you KNOW banshees are coming, don't make a queen, make spores. They are effective in at least keeping my banshees away. I don't really want to sacrifice my banshees trying to take down a spore but I'll do it for a queen because it's one less unit for my bioball to worry about and it's a useful unit for zerg. Plus, having spores means you can have your overseer perform other duties, such as support your army. So you're telling me I should preemptively waste a minimum of 4 drones on spore crawlers on the off chance that banshees are coming? Terran can keep starport/tech lab from being scouted so easily it's not even funny. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
Yes, it does get a comprehensive scout of the opponent earlier, but you won't get to scout until they already have a banshee out and cloak and another banshee can be in progress. With only 1 overseer you also need to worry about split groups of banshees. Without speed upgrade, banshees are much faster than overseers, and even with speed upgrade banshees are the same speed as overseers. This makes it impossible to defend 2 cloaked banshees with only 1 overseer. I find generally if you have an overlord on each side of their base and choose to either sacrifice 1 or none (depending how far you move in), you can get ENOUGH information to make a reasonable assumption of what they are doing, without needing an overseer so early on. However, I am not saying zerg isn't totally screwed vs terran when it comes to scouting though, because I do still believe that, it's just i feel overlords are the best way to cope as opposed to rushing overseer. | ||
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stealthgerbi
United States25 Posts
The best defense is just getting hydras or mutas though. However that never happens in time  | ||
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EL_Klingerado
Germany7 Posts
Banshees and VoidRays are these nightmare units where you u can loose to only one unit killing everything pretty early on. Its less frustrating to loose to a 200 supply army thats better than to these units just because u didnt expect them to be there that fast. Its easier for most players to set up some spore crawlers and have the feeling to be safe. This helps a lot getting better in all other aspects of the game and being able to concentrate on the fundementals of zerg not so much worrying about the banshees all the time. I think its good to know that u can be safe with only queens when u get better at the game though. Hope to get a queen master myself in the future to kill all this flying nightmares | ||
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valeron90
19 Posts
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the p00n
Netherlands615 Posts
On November 24 2010 13:51 valeron90 wrote: what if you the z doesnt see the starport? like hidden ones or something. then you lose | ||
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Falcon-sw
United States324 Posts
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vsportsguy
United States118 Posts
I think a lot of people are underestimating how big of an annoyance banshee's are to deal with as well as how much it costs to invest in banshee's for terran. It causes a lot of losses right away. I find it very hard to outmicro him with just queens and overseers (trying to stay on top of injects, transfusions, spreading creep, and protecting drones/spire.) Most of the time I go queens (3-4 of them,) I get my spire sniped and then they mass produce banshee's while I'm trying to mass produce queens. Once they get 4-5 banshee's it's a gg for me. In any situation, if you can get your spire up with minimal losses, you are fine. But I find this much easier to do with spore's than queens. Remember, you should be ahead in drones at this point. I will gladly give up 4 drones and 300 min to HELP protect against cloaked banshee's (they've invested 200/200 just in cloak). If they have already done economic damage with hellions/marines, you are pretty much limited to queens/overseers otherwise the push after banshee's will be too much to hold off. I think just like in every other SC scenario, there is a time and place for both. If you have mastered the queen/overseer method, go ahead and use that because it is more economical in the long run. I watch a lot of pro reactions to banshee harassment, and a lot of zergs opt for spores. They don't go crazy, but they will put 1-4 spore's at their lines (1-2 at each base). They also make sure to position their spire next to one of these spore's. | ||
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aquanda
United States477 Posts
If u get ling speed before lair you won't have an overseer in time to stop the cloak. | ||
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valeron90
19 Posts
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