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Well it's probably a tip for those that are tired of ladder bullshit and is looking to improve more. I was kinda bored here looking for partners to pratice and thought i would give AI a go.
Seriosuly, very hard AI is awesome if you play standard zerg, I think it's probably low/mid-diamond level if you don't abuse it's weakness. It scouts you, do a good army composition against yours and macro AWESOME
What i found out so far, the best race to pratice against is protoss as zerg it doesn't act anywhere near as a real zvz(no banelings) and terran don't abuse all the cheese that it can.
Did anybody pratice or had any good experience playing the AI? It's seens way above wc3 level.
Insane AI isn't really playable as you have to abuse it's weakness to win or maybe a close(maybe that's not even enoght) to perfect macro game and use some strategy you wouldn't use on an online game.
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I'll practice with you
JayyJer 597
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The only problem is that the AI just crumbles to muta harass. It can't defend mutas at all
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Yeah I'm a Zerg player and practice a good bit against very hard AI. The insane isn't good to practice against because they cheat and the builds and timings will all be off.
Playing against Protoss is also my favorite and use it mostly to test build orders and for warming up.
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The problem with playing the AI is that almost nobody uses the same builds the AI uses. Generally, real games come down to timing pushes, good harass/micro, or solid macro play with good defense. The computer just works off of weird timing pushes and good macro play.
So, if you can beat very hard AI without using cheese, it means your macro is very good. On the other hand, since nobody really likes to play with the same BO the computer uses, you'll find that your comp stomp skills don't necessarily transfer over very well to ladder games.
It's nice to warm up on the comp, though, if nothing else 
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On September 06 2010 13:31 Zips wrote:The problem with playing the AI is that almost nobody uses the same builds the AI uses. Generally, real games come down to timing pushes, good harass/micro, or solid macro play with good defense. The computer just works off of weird timing pushes and good macro play. So, if you can beat very hard AI without using cheese, it means your macro is very good. On the other hand, since nobody really likes to play with the same BO the computer uses, you'll find that your comp stomp skills don't necessarily transfer over very well to ladder games. It's nice to warm up on the comp, though, if nothing else
I have "mastered" what the computer usually do and if you think about it, it's not bad. I think he maphacks also but the computer build isn't really bad if you think about it.
I know how bad he is if you muta harrass him or some shit, but if you just macro battle its so fucking awesome!
I went 5rr a bunch of times, all of the where greatly countered by imortals with perfect timing, 1 gate 1 robo.
I tried to expand early, he 2 gated me.
I tried to go roaches, he got imortals+stakers+some zealots and setry and pushed me really good.
I tried to hydras and he went colossus+normal army. 2 gate robo i think.
I went fake roaches and hydras and just massed hydras when he was about to attack me(he had imortals+some good mix), i've finally won.
AI's first and second pushes are so awesome, after that it gets really easy 
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.............Practice against ladder is better in my opinion. It's not boring. People play creatively. They don't 4 gate rush you all the time. They actually learn to wall in , force shield, fast tech, fast voidray etc. When you hit diamond or so, players will micro better forcing you to learn to micro against them too. You'll learn from you mistake after you lose so many games.
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Yeah I know the Greentea AI isn't perfect, which is why I said fun
It is sure as hell a lot more challenging to fight compared to the default blizzard AI. So if you are seriously disheartened with ladder play? I still recommend the Greentea AI :D
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@horoLA: I've pretty much gotten the very hard ai down to where I can early FE into a macro win, but the problem is that I always do the same thing against the ai and in turn it uses the same strats more often. Although, one time, I left an Ovie too close to the toss AI, and he went fast void rays and killed it + me. Its like one guy over at blizzard managed to engineer spite into the ai.
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Hmm I wish someone could make the ai go online, just for fun and to see how high he gets.
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On September 08 2010 00:22 guldurkhand wrote:
Hmm I wish someone could make the ai go online, just for fun and to see how high he gets.
That would be awesome!
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I cannot come up with a strategy to consistently beat the Protoss AI as a Zerg player (besides 6 pool or something) - it's very frustrating. They always get me with the first rush if I don't make roaches ASAP, or the second rush. FE is basically impossible.
Even when I feel like I am doing nothing but macroing and making drones, the very hard AI still has more income than me (and 3x the army of course).
I'm not good - #9 Gold, but I never know what to do against toss on the ladder, and I feel like I can't beat good players if I can't learn how to beat the very hard AI.
Terran/zerg AI on very hard is not too bad, but protoss just seems impossible.
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GreenTea AI is super fun when just practicing a brand new build order or tired of laddering. It's a pretty solid AI really, but most of the difficulty levels do get a mineral bonus. Fortunately, the mineral bonus starts at 0 and gradually increases as game length increases, which means that early game timings are mostly preserved while late game it's compensating for less than ideal decision making by having larger numbers. 
Give it a go if you're looking for a change.
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I like to use it as a source of ideas, for instance if I want a idea to what I should do against mass marines I will just mass marine against very hard/insane
unfortunately very hard pretty much loses to masses =X (mass rine/ mass marauder etc)
but overall it´s good to play @work =x
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On September 30 2010 06:50 Gamble85 wrote:
I cannot come up with a strategy to consistently beat the Protoss AI as a Zerg player (besides 6 pool or something) - it's very frustrating. They always get me with the first rush if I don't make roaches ASAP, or the second rush. FE is basically impossible.
Even when I feel like I am doing nothing but macroing and making drones, the very hard AI still has more income than me (and 3x the army of course).
I'm not good - #9 Gold, but I never know what to do against toss on the ladder, and I feel like I can't beat good players if I can't learn how to beat the very hard AI.
Terran/zerg AI on very hard is not too bad, but protoss just seems impossible.
Depends on the map, of course, but...
Do standard 15 hatch 14 pool. You need the 15 hatch to defend the second push. You need to practice this over and over until you get the exact timing to get the zerglings. But once you get the timing, all you need to do is get 2-3 spines down at the right time and to make a lot of zerglings, and to hide your queen behind the spines to snipe zealots hitting it. The zerglings should get sent to the back to take out the stalkers and sentries or the immortal. This should almost always get you past the first wave. The second wave comes pretty quick after, and has more units.
I find that practicing against the hard protoss AI makes a zerg player appreciate drone/army timing differences.
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I can't seem to beat protoss or terran as zerg against the very hard AI. I can make it to around the 20 minute mark usually, but then a big push usually kills me. I realize that means I need to learn better macro, but it's frustrating, because I'll be doing really good up to that point.
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What kind of "ladder bullshit" are you referring to, exactly? Yes, it can be frustrating to lose a few matches in a row every once in a while, but roflstomping a relatively predictable AI isn't really the best way to practice.
I would suggest sticking with the ladder. You'll be exposed to many different tactics, which will in turn force you to be able to quickly shift your game plan about and macro properly against harass and the such. Try messaging players after you play a really close and fun match against them. Ask them if they would like to play a few custom games so that the both of you can learn from the other. You'd be surprised as to how many people are actually up for this kind of stuff.
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On September 30 2010 11:52 jpaugh78 wrote:
I can't seem to beat protoss or terran as zerg against the very hard AI. I can make it to around the 20 minute mark usually, but then a big push usually kills me. I realize that means I need to learn better macro, but it's frustrating, because I'll be doing really good up to that point.
Watch the replays. The best reason why I like playing against the Hard AI sometimes is because you can watch the replays and they are very consistent. Having the opponent be consistent means your mistakes are a lot easier to spot by yourself.
For example, after watching through a few of those replays where the computer does the same kind of push to kill you, ask yourself -
How much more of an army did it have over me?
Why was it's army bigger? Or if it wasn't, what was the composition that killed me?
What was my production and tech prior to the push? Was it insufficient? Why was it insufficient?
Etc.
On September 30 2010 12:00 Slivered Skin wrote:
What kind of "ladder bullshit" are you referring to, exactly? Yes, it can be frustrating to lose a few matches in a row every once in a while, but roflstomping a relatively predictable AI isn't really the best way to practice.
I would suggest sticking with the ladder. You'll be exposed to many different tactics, which will in turn force you to be able to quickly shift your game plan about and macro properly against harass and the such. Try messaging players after you play a really close and fun match against them. Ask them if they would like to play a few custom games so that the both of you can learn from the other. You'd be surprised as to how many people are actually up for this kind of stuff.
I agree on practice partners. But if you aren't a good player and you aren't great at self analyzing and you don't have that many friends that can assist you in that matter, playing against the hard AI can help you learn HOW to analyze. Ladder opponents can vary in tactics, timing, etc by a ton. The AI, not so much.
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Well these won't really give you a proper challenge, you will basically make enough units to beat back their push and then mass drones as you counterattack with your leftover army and they always die to the counter. Not useful imo.
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On September 30 2010 12:25 Shikyo wrote:
Well these won't really give you a proper challenge, you will basically make enough units to beat back their push and then mass drones as you counterattack with your leftover army and they always die to the counter. Not useful imo.
"make enough units to beat back their push"
Learning this part is already a very good step in learning how to get out of lower levels of play. It's a pretty critical part of macro, especially for a zerg player.
I'm not saying playing against the hard AI is going to give you everything. It's a stepping stone.
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I've been using the very hard ai to learn to macro up hard. Usually as zerg I go for the heavy muta ling baneling vs. terran and harrass but since the ai sucks at dealing with muta harass I sit back and expand and defend the pushes. Initially I was getting overrun in the 15-25 minute range but I've managed to sustain it and once I double expand around 15 mins after a push from them i go on offensive. Its not exactly the same as ladder practice but the macro training is really useful. It's also been good for practicing infestor, baneling micro since mine was really weak and I didn't want to bust it out on ladder and get roflstomped by larger unit composition. I moved up from gold to plat and wanted to really solidify my macro game and micro before pushing up to diamond and I think this was a really helpful way to do it.
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As an addendum, I've noticed that when I alter my build slightly or FE at 15 with a hatch pre pool they go early reapers if you want to practice defending that. I almost never use roaches on ladder versus terran currently but I've been practicing using 4-6 early to help defend the reaper harass and then move up to t2. After watching a lot of Idra/Dimaga replays going heavy on roach/hydra compositions I'm going to try that out now. I realize that their insane micro, scouting, and creep spreading makes that possible and I can't quite replicate that with my 60-70 APM at the moment but it's getting there and I'd like more options to mix it up if I get hard countered by mech transitions mid game to rape the banelings and muta's. I still don't have a lot of faith in hydra's since thors and tanks still eat them alive without insane micro and being on creep.
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On September 08 2010 01:03 LagT_T wrote:Show nested quote +On September 08 2010 00:22 guldurkhand wrote:
Hmm I wish someone could make the ai go online, just for fun and to see how high he gets. That would be awesome!
Agree 100%!!
I would really like to see this. lol
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I cant get a 1-1 to save my life on SC2 ... have had to wait like 2-3 mins and nothing. Figured the very hard AI was a decent human player. Thing is, I am not that bad, but cannot manage beat the very hard AI no matter what build I do.
AI checklist ....
Perfect counter to me without scouting me ... check
Rushes me when I expand ... check
somehow manages to wipe my entire army out with what appears to be half the troops ... check
I wall in, and he rushes. I leave a hole to get out, and he goes tier 3 units immediately. I watch the replay and I don't understand it. I can beat human players that do the same build/attack strat, so why not the AI?
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Very hard AI isn't a good practice partner. It isn't updated with the rest of the game, so it will act as if it's still patch 1.1 (I mean they won't update the strategies, not the units have different stats)
It's also probably high platinum level tops, I'm a mid diamond(1700) zerg and it's not a challenge for me at all.
Better practice is to just ladder, or if you don't want to be cheesed, practice partners.
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Well the AI's play by one build, they choose like 5 out of hat. and they don't wall off their buildings so automatically, they lose to speed ling all in's, they don't even kill scouts, and your drone can literally sit there all day scouting. They don't do any meta game shit, they don't get xel naga's, they expand blindly, and don't even try to counter your tech, like actual players would. They don't go for cheese at all as well, or any type of fast VR/Banshee, so your not getting practice on what's actually going to happen on ladder.
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Thanks. Now if I could get a 1-1 going I will be able to figure it out.
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EPT
