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First topic I started, because I'm really stuck on that. I'm a 700+ diamond terran and I do OK in most situations (still ironing out some flaws in my play) but I have trouble against high templar and I have a tough time figuring out what to do.
The way I see it, that High Templar wrecks havoc against:
- Marine/Marauder with storm
- Ghost with storm and feedback
- Thors with feedback
- Every starport unit cept the viking with feedback plus banshees (low hp) and battlecruisers (very slow) are vulnerable for storm, too
That leaves the terran arsenal with:
- Reaper, that are fended off with storm easily and die to everything that can catch them
- Hellions, see Reaper
- Tanks, very solid, but you can rarely win with tanks alone plus if you storm a sieged tank it's full damage and 2 storms destroy the tank
- Vikings, that fare horrible against most toss arsenal (colossi excluded).
So most of the games I play protoss goes 2 gate into robo into more gates and council/templar and I feel that I have to win before HT get deployed. The robotics gives them observers and immortals if the need arises and gateway units alone seem enough to crush me as they can be macroed up with ease, deployed whereever the toss needs them (try dropping a toss lategame when he has 12+ gateways) and just built way faster.
So here is my question:
It is the late midgame and I know the toss has robo, concil+archives and lots of gates. His army comp is obs, 4-6 HT, stalker and zealots with sentries and immortal as optional components. How should my army look so that I have good chances?
Please keep in mind, that ghost and EMP isn't really an answer (though it seems the obvious). I have thought of that, but it doesn't really work for the following reason:
In order to EMP the HT, I have to see them. EMP and Feedback both have a casting range of 9. EMP has splash, so in theory a tiny bit more range. But the problem is that HT are behind the opposing army, so I cannot get sight of them. If my ghosts advance in front of my army, they get killed. Cloak doesn't help because of observers. If I advance my army and then use the ghosts, storms are already on my army and EMP makes no sense. If I scanned, I have just payed 300+ minerals to warn my opponent that an attack is imminent. EMP is a strong spell against toss, but it lacks compared to storm, because it will never kill a unit.
Also keep in mind, that Ghosts are more expensive than HT and you can warp in HT within 5 sec, in contrast to the 60 sec build time for ghosts.
So if I go bio with MMM+G, I get owned by templar that feedback the medivacs (taking them out of the battle) and storm the troops. Intelligent storm placement means that even stimmed, I take tons of damage.
If I go pure mech, immortals own me. Plus chargelots and blinkstalkers are really strong. Templar make sure I have to stick to tanks, because thors take 100+ damage in their face from feedback and they are too slow to dodge the storm that kills all repairing SCVs I brought along.
Best results I had so far with marauder/tanks, that seem to fare best against templar, but it means I am immobile and chargelots still give me headaches. Plus warp prisms own me.
Bottom line:
I have trouble with toss employing high templar and mass gateway units. The trouble stems from templar empowering the gateway mix to win against my army while the gateway core means ridiculously fast reinforcements due to warpgates.
Also - as food for thought - I would like to propose a minor change in the protoss spell distribution:
Archons gain feedback
HT lose feedback but gain hallucination (no research for hallucination required)
sentries lose hallucination (which is underused anyhow atm)
This change is just meant as an additional discussion item. I realize, that I just have to play better against HT - hopefully with insights gained here.
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EMP
If you have EMP and he has Feedback it all comes down to micro, however you can cloak your Ghosts and EMP has a range of 10 with about 1-2 added since its AOE. Feedback has a range of 9 and it is definitely difficult to single-click target every single ghost if they are in a big bio ball.
Watch this replay by BratOK, it shows pure and utter terran dominance over a good Protoss (Socke) and features brilliant EMPing in the final battle.
The big thing is to always think about how you can EMP his templar & high shield units (try to EMP zealots last since they only have 50 shields)
http://www.sc2-replays.net/de/replays/404-socke-vs-brat_ok/
gl!
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Ghosts. Control them better.
Once HTs are in the field there is no magic combination to just beat him, you have to outplay him.
btw it's actually very easy to feedback ghosts, because when you misclick on a marine or whatever nothing happens, so you can just spam click until you hit the ghost..
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use ravens/scan + vikings to scout ahead of the army and kill the observers. then move in with cloaked ghosts to emp.
yeah you actually have to use more units and micro than just mmm, so does the P if he is going for an army composition vs T with HTs.
btw as far as i remember emp has 9 range and feedback only 8. addidionally storm has even a shorter range so you have plenty of time to emp before he gets storms out since its way harder for a P to spot ghosts in a mmm bioball, therefor feedback on ghost is unlikely.
if you have problems with that you just lack practice and click/control your ghosts too slowly.
PS: scan is NOT sacrificing 300 mins. you are just going back to even footing resource wise and choose to relinquish an economic advantage which btw is not really much later in the game if you are on 2base+
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As a protoss player I find ghosts most scary. They own both immortals and HT's (and make sentries useless). I think it all comes down to micro.
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Vatican City State95 Posts
I got in a late game vs a Toss and his entire 200/200 army was HT/Colossi/Stalker(maybe a few lots/sentry) My army was Tanks/Ghost/Viking and a few marines, I had a few ghosts get off EMP on the front line for the last battle, and also utilized a flank of some ghosts/rines in which I was able to EMP everything before all his HT's were able to get from the front to the back. From there it was GG.
Many people have said it before, not bunching up units, spreading them around and possibly attacking from two angles at once really turns the tide vs HT.
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Man i share you problems and think it is pretty hard to handle the hts
First thing i would say is to almost never attack at narrow spaces and try sending out a death squad of 6 marauders or so to snipe some hts.
Furthermore, if possible, move out with some cloaked ghosts (always research mobius reactor) and try scan killing the observer, although easier said than done. Most certainly, the toss will build more observers after that to prevent this.
The most important thing is your army placement. They should be spread out in a half circle while you push forward carefully. Try to get vision from the watch towers, or prevent the toss from doing so. On some narrow maps like KR or Metalopolis, it is very hard to attack because of the narrow passages.
You said drops are no real option because of 10+ warpgates with instant warp-in. I think you should try so, with good micro the toss has to move his army back because warped units can get killed pretty good, of course you have to watch for psi and dodge it as good as possible.
Although i didn't drop often in the later games, i believe this is very essential, if handled wisely.
Then you can watch for his army and send 12 marauders or so to kill a nexus at one of his expansions.
All in all, a full army attack is almost impossible, especially on some maps. You have to prevent the toss from getting ahead, while getting ahead of your own expansion-wise. If the toss gets ahead, and that will happen when you loose to much to psi, he has many options like getting VRs with speed upgrade. You have to use the terran mobility to its max to defeat a good toss.
Perhaps try some nasty things like dropping a ghost while attacking to get off the emp before getting feedbacked. Always remember to watch for observers.
That said, i think terran has a hard time dealing with toss in lategame and i will try to do more research of what the best possibilities are.
I am a 900 diamond player, so i have faced quite some good tosses.
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On August 24 2010 20:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Also - as food for thought - I would like to propose a minor change in the protoss spell distribution:
Archons gain feedback
HT lose feedback but gain hallucination (no research for hallucination required)
sentries lose hallucination (which is underused anyhow atm)
As for these suggested changes, they would be quite major ones.
Sentries are available a lot earlier than HTs - this would delay access to hallucination for what balance reason exactly ?
Do you feel hallucination is a problem generally early in the game for you or is the only reason for it to be moved to force HTs to split their mana between storm and hallucination ? In this case, you mentioned yourself how hallucination is already an underused spell, I do not see this proposed change helping with that.
HTs with hallucination but not feedback would be seriously weakened, so this change might actually help you. Storm is lower range while EMP is range 10. Ghosts seriously would have the edge now. It would also delay access to Feedback.
And Archons getting feedback ? Hm, so basically Protoss would have only half the feedback casters (2 HTs -> 1 Archon) on a unit that has like 10 hp remaining after an EMP and is therefore rarely even considered useful against Terran ?
I am sorry, I do not want to sound too harsh here, but you are asking for some major Protoss nerf here with no compensation at all, and I do not think the current state of game balance calls for that.
Edit: edited to show correct EMP range of 10
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You cannot realistically rely on ghosts emping all the templar (especially once he has kydarian amulet and can just warp in storms on demand). Even EMP'd templar can transform into archons.
Your best bet is tank/hellion, and possibly thors mixed in if you can afford it. You have to spread your tanks out to counter storms and also counter chargealots which are very natural in the build. REmember to give your tank line as much depth as possible and abuse the massive range. Hellions are your next unit of choice. They do die if caught in too many storms, but just use 2 or 3 control groups of htem or send them in waves. They eat zealots up quickly and templar even more. Try to ambush the toss player.
Finally thors are better than you might think. Yes, they do get feedbacked and that's huge, but they can still tank very well for the... tanks in the back. Try to use them in a forward position to disrupt gateway heavy armies from killing all your hellions/tanks immediatly. They also do a ton of damage so that's great too.
So ultimatly I like to get tanks, a few ghosts for EMPing clumps of units, mass hellions and a few thors. As toss against this I usuaully switch into archons to soak tank fire while focusing on gateway units (or a VR transitino but usually it's too tight of a game) with charge/blink and a few HT for support, instead of a massive no-brained HT army.
There's no straight up counter, this is a very micro intesnive army matchup.
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This is easily the hardest part of mid/late TvP. Use scans to learn where templars and observers are positioned and then sneak in with ghosts & emp. The truth is that it's It's ridiculously hard. The ghosts need LOTS of energy to be able to emp AND stay cloked so you need to have your ghosts around for a while before you emp templars.
If ghosts fail use stimmed marauders to kite & coax the templars to cast storm then run back and get healed up by medivacs. Be ready to use marines to kill the blinking stalkers that follow.
I guess loosely positioned tanks might work also. never tried though...
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I really think ghosts hold the advantage in the hands of a good player. They are faster, can cloak, and can be pre positioned smartly in some cases. While I do agree many decent opponents wont let you feedback all templars, you just have to remove a significant amount, it's not like well controlled marauders totally melt if controlled well. I've played this matchup on both sides and find it really enjoyable, though a switch back to colossi once ghosts start showing up can really hurt.
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On August 24 2010 21:26 Nixda wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 20:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Also - as food for thought - I would like to propose a minor change in the protoss spell distribution:
Archons gain feedback
HT lose feedback but gain hallucination (no research for hallucination required)
sentries lose hallucination (which is underused anyhow atm)
As for these suggested changes, they would be quite major ones. Sentries are available a lot earlier than HTs - this would delay access to hallucination for what balance reason exactly ? Do you feel hallucination is a problem generally early in the game for you or is the only reason for it to be moved to force HTs to split their mana between storm and hallucination ? In this case, you mentioned yourself how hallucination is already an underused spell, I do not see this proposed change helping with that. HTs with hallucination but not feedback would be seriously weakened, so this change might actually help you. Storm is lower range while EMP is range 10. Ghosts seriously would have the edge now. It would also delay access to Feedback. And Archons getting feedback ? Hm, so basically Protoss would have only half the feedback casters (2 HTs -> 1 Archon) on a unit that has like 10 hp remaining after an EMP and is therefore rarely even considered useful against Terran ? I am sorry, I do not want to sound too harsh here, but you are asking for some major Protoss nerf here with no compensation at all, and I do not think the current state of game balance calls for that. Edit: edited to show correct EMP range of 10
My thought process was more along the lines that HT are so effective, because they combine two very strong spells. If feedback and strom would be on two different units, it would involve more protoss decision making. Thus I transfered feedback to the archons, as storm is the signature spell of HT. That leaves HT without any spell before research. So I thought of hallucination, which isn't a bad spell per se. Sentries are great units even without hallucination (which is rarely researched).
I agree, that it would weaken protoss and I would be fine, if sentries or HT gained another ability instead. Archons could have double energy regen as well.
EDIT: I also want to point out, that SC2 EMP is NOT BW EMP. The shield loss caps at 100, so even if archons are hit by 2 EMPs, they still have 100 shields left.
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So far thank you for the input. I will try brushing up my ghost play as well as testing pure mech that sikyon suggested.
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EMP actually has a range of 10 if I'm not mistaken, in addition to pretty good AoE. A protoss must scout very well if there are cloaked ghosts in the field, as a single handful of them roaming around can completely nullify any storm attempts before a major battle starts. Even if you as a protoss player spot the ghosts when they are in range, the HTs are likely to die or get EMP'ed due to the fact that a siege tank in siege mode can almost outrun them.
As for the changes you propose: HTs don't have 250 energy anymore. In other words, they only have 2 storms and 1 FB per unit, given they got full energy. Giving HT an energy consuming spell like Hallucination will be a huge nerf, not a small one, as we then would have to make archons to counter Thors and BCs which they already are pretty crappy against. It's hard enough for us protoss players already to keep track of the ghosts in that huge bioball of yours, and keep in mind that EMP doesn't only affect the HTs. If you miss the HTs, the EMP will still not likely be completely wasted.
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Response against ht : make more bio, hit and run and kite to the hell those damn chargelots. ht are so slow they're not going to be in range, if they do they'll storm on you, kite and the storm will rain into zealots.
MMM + ghost is so damn easy to play, protoss needs at least 40+apm over his terran opponent and T3 units to defeat such a easy strategy...
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On August 24 2010 20:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Also - as food for thought - I would like to propose a minor change in the protoss spell distribution:
Archons gain feedback
HT lose feedback but gain hallucination (no research for hallucination required)
sentries lose hallucination (which is underused anyhow atm)
Don't change it. Look at the range of EMP. Now look at the range of Feedback. Look back at the range of EMP. EMP has 3 or 4 more range. Have your Ghosts in the mid and before the HT's can even feedback you can EMP already. Also before they storm! The only problem you have is if the Toss player makes Phoenixes (thanks NightEnd) and lifts tanks and your ghosts you have a slight problem, though the marines should be able to fix that with focus fireing.
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I don't see how EMP is an effective solution once you reach the mid-late game point (3+bases) and protoss can afford to warp in half a dozen HTs, all ready to storm, even if you manage to land perfect emps on his existing HTs.
In games that reach this point, I don't think I've ever seen T pull ahead and win, unless he has some huge hidden advantage (massive fleet of bcs, etc.)
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I have to side with those who have said that emp is only a viable option when the game is still relatively early. Once templar numbers hit six or more and crystal is researched, emp becomes useless, especially if the protoss just spreads the templars out. Hellions with preigniter to flank and kill high templars that are hiding behind the ball is one option.
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ok, assuming you dont rush into some narrow passage where 10 fully charged templars are positioned in a half-circle to welcome you, your army should form a blop, which is bad, try do do 2 - 3 blops, wich is micromanagable ( i really wonder how you should move your army in a half- circle form effectively and still macro). this reduces the width of your amry, it should be as small as a roach attack goes, about 2-3 range. this is not that hard because terran bio armies are just so compact, compared to something like stalkers, immortals or ultralisks or so.
now it doesnt matter where your ghosts are. if a templar wants to storm the front of your army with range 9, even if your ghost is at the very back of your amry the space between your ghost and the templar should not be below 11or 12 which makes it possible for you to emp. the job is even easier done if the ghosts are at the front or in the middle of your army.
and dont engage directly, make the toss move his army, this way it is almost impossilbe for him to keep up the spread, that way you can just run in with like 4 ghosts and emp the hell out of him. and you can just pick of the chargelots, because that upgrade is soooo annoying sometimes for toss.
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high templars so slow and vulnerable and the range of storm is so low... you should have no problem outmaneuvering them
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Hellions have worked fine for me. Storm isn't great against them because of their speed...Your hellion ball shouldn't be caught in a storm for more than a fifth of a second, tops. Maybe if there are a ton of forcefields being thrown around, but you just have to learn to deal with it and get a sense of the range on sentries so you don't get caught like that.
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^Storm has 9 range, EMP 10. That's not a ton of difference.
Don't see how MMM ghost is easier to micro than chargelot/ht. Chargelot 'fire-and-forget', you just need to keep control of HT/sentries. Stim&kite his chargelots while taking out HTs with ghosts is alot harder in my book.
And yeah, once 3+ bases kicks in and he can warp in storm-ready HT's, I guess you have to transition into heavier mech, ghosts just aint gonna cut them all before they get 1 storm that puts your army at half hp
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EMP. Control your ghosts better and he probably wont be able to pick them all out of your bio ball before you emp them as they are hard to see when they're all clumped. HTs on the other hand are easier to see so just EMP the guys with stuff trailing them.
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On August 24 2010 23:31 KaiserJohan wrote:
ghosts just aint gonna cut them all before they get 1 storm that puts your army at half hp
That is what I meant when I wrote how ghosts are not the solution, because you just cannot ensure that you get all HT in your EMP. Not even semi-reliable. Most of the solutions say EMP and he cannot cast, but in reality, you can only reduce the amount of casts he can do. But often those few storms cut it.
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EMP your own Thors? Alternatively, get the 250mm upgrade and use the energy, but self-EMP is easier.
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Hmm.. Maybe if your lucky you can position your ghosts where the Toss player can't see them, such as on a cliff, and while your army is about to engage EMP with Ghosts? There's really no magic combination though.
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Anyone that thinks EMP is the solution is completely clueless.
Try not having storms go off when you are pushing into a 4th base against 12 warpgates.
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My guess is that we will be seeing more mech usage as well. Marauder/dropship is really just too inefficient in cost and control time to deal with speedlot/templar spam.
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EMP is not really the answer in the late game, I don't think.
The Kaydarin Amulet upgrade lets the protoss warp in a storm practically anywhere and anytime he wants to, provided he has the gas for it, and even then the protoss has feedback to fight back.
I think terran players are much better off macroing like crazy - cuz look at it this way: 50 minerals and 150 gas gets me one single storm. The odds of HTs living to cast another one is very small.
Also, siege tanks have way longer range than storm, so with good micro you could focusfire and kill HTs before they get into range.
Remember too, that storm deals relatively little damage relatively slowly. It's quite dodgeable, especially with tough and maneuverable units like marauders. Medivacs can then quickly heal up the damage dealt, and the army can move on.
Also, the most overlooked TVP unit, the hellion, is absolutely great at scooting in and owning HTs that are straggling behind the main protoss force.
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On August 24 2010 23:31 KaiserJohan wrote:
^Storm has 9 range, EMP 10. That's not a ton of difference.
Storm has a range of 6. It's the only spell in the game that effects enemy units (so, excluding stuff like cloak, guardian shield, hallucination, etc.) to have a range less than 9.
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On August 25 2010 02:07 Kyadytim wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 23:31 KaiserJohan wrote:
^Storm has 9 range, EMP 10. That's not a ton of difference. Storm has a range of 6. It's the only spell in the game that effects enemy units (so, excluding stuff like cloak, guardian shield, hallucination, etc.) to have a range less than 9.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm
Range 9
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If you dont like using a lot of hellions in your army comp., but fail with ghosts, just keep a control group of 56 hellions and flank the HTs before they storm
I have also loved a LOT (very micro intensive though) using dropshit ghosts, that way he can feedback your drops but not the ghosts, just drop ghost somewhere you can EMP the HTs easily.
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I think u forgot that for a toss to get storm he need to make citadel + templar archive + storm resaearch ( take ages). For u to get emp all u need to do is build a ghost academy and emp is ready. So if there is a change needed is u need to pay for emp i think 200/200 and wait like u do for storm. =D (srry for poor english tho)
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I think emp need to be researched like storm 200/200. Why not ?
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If you struggle with ghost micro (like me) just focus on timing based builds that end the game or cripple the Protoss before HT tech is complete.
1/1/1
3rax
1 rax expand
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On August 25 2010 01:57 naventus wrote:
Anyone that thinks EMP is the solution is completely clueless.
Try not having storms go off when you are pushing into a 4th base against 12 warpgates.
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My guess is that we will be seeing more mech usage as well. Marauder/dropship is really just too inefficient in cost and control time to deal with speedlot/templar spam.
12 Warp Gates? Well, that late into the game I would agree, you need something more than just ghosts. I thought we were mostly talking about mid game as OP mentioned a push with 4-6 HT and some other gateway units. Against 4 HT, how's EMP NOT a solution?
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On August 25 2010 02:11 Mrbustanut wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:07 Kyadytim wrote:On August 24 2010 23:31 KaiserJohan wrote:
^Storm has 9 range, EMP 10. That's not a ton of difference. Storm has a range of 6. It's the only spell in the game that effects enemy units (so, excluding stuff like cloak, guardian shield, hallucination, etc.) to have a range less than 9. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_StormRange 9
I can assure you that psi storm does not have a range of 9 from you know, actually using it.
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Hyrule19180 Posts
Ghosts. Snipe, range 9 and EMP are both great ways to eat HT. You are just letting your Ghosts get picked off (Feedback range < EMP range)
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Lategame TvP army composition should consist of:
- Marauders
- Hellions
- Medivacs
- Ghosts (few)
- Siege tanks
- Battle cruisers
- Vikings
- Ravens (few)
Once you're on 2-3 bases, it's fine to burn OC energy on scans instead of mules. Gas will be your limiting resource, not minerals.
Unfortunately since you have to fall back to siege tanks and BCs, you lose a lot of mobility in the lategame (still keep marauder or hellion drops, but mass warp-in makes those a lot less potent).
Ghost EMP is the solution in midgame, but not in lategame. You can self-EMP though, if it's called for.
Cloak imo is pretty useless...
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I see two major options to countering HTs. Option A is - like everyone has been saying - to use ghosts and EMP. Is it perfect? Not at all. Using ghosts to counter HT really makes Terran be on the ball and puts the pressure on him to out-micro the Protoss. The 1 extra range and AoE of EMP is useless when Protoss sees you coming with observers, and proceeds to kill your ghosts with some zealots. Yes it sucks Protoss can warp in storms if they ever run out, but that's how Protoss works and outplaying them is necessary.
Option 2, while not as common, does work fairly well when you get used to it. Massing banshees off of 2 starports is very threatening to the Protoss army if they don't get enough anti air. This works wonders for controlling the Protoss army composition. It works well against high templar because if you EMP your own banshees they instantly become 99% HT-proof. Feedback will do maybe 13-20 damage, and if they try to storm the banshees as you're picking units off you can just fly away.
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Ghosts for EMP
Marauders for damage + concussive shells + they don't take that much damage vs storm + stim kiting.
Thats the core you need. Suplement with whatever is necessary i.e., some vikings to get some better range for EMP and/or kill obs with scan/raven
Marines behind the marauders are hard to storm and will kill any Zealot that charges in (their dps unit)
Some supporting siege tanks can help too, since they'll get the bonus range from viking vision.
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On August 24 2010 21:33 sikyon wrote:
You cannot realistically rely on ghosts emping all the templar (especially once he has kydarian amulet and can just warp in storms on demand). Even EMP'd templar can transform into archons.
Your best bet is tank/hellion, and possibly thors mixed in if you can afford it. You have to spread your tanks out to counter storms and also counter chargealots which are very natural in the build. REmember to give your tank line as much depth as possible and abuse the massive range. Hellions are your next unit of choice. They do die if caught in too many storms, but just use 2 or 3 control groups of htem or send them in waves. They eat zealots up quickly and templar even more. Try to ambush the toss player.
Finally thors are better than you might think. Yes, they do get feedbacked and that's huge, but they can still tank very well for the... tanks in the back. Try to use them in a forward position to disrupt gateway heavy armies from killing all your hellions/tanks immediatly. They also do a ton of damage so that's great too.
So ultimatly I like to get tanks, a few ghosts for EMPing clumps of units, mass hellions and a few thors. As toss against this I usuaully switch into archons to soak tank fire while focusing on gateway units (or a VR transitino but usually it's too tight of a game) with charge/blink and a few HT for support, instead of a massive no-brained HT army.
There's no straight up counter, this is a very micro intesnive army matchup. Hold on, does this tactic actually work? I've considered going mech against Protoss, but everything that comes out of that Factory can get raped by Immortals, and that unit composition is way too gas heavy to allow enough Ghosts on the field.
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It doesn't actually work because it is too immobile to hold across 3-4 base. Not to mention you still need bio to help handle VR.
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On August 24 2010 21:14 rextyrann wrote:
PS: scan is NOT sacrificing 300 mins. you are just going back to even footing resource wise and choose to relinquish an economic advantage which btw is not really much later in the game if you are on 2base+
You understand that this is used to even it our for Terran, right? They have to build their buildings with their units whereas Protoss warps in an goes back to mining. They also have Chronoboost. Zerg can just make a ton of Drones at a time but you could argue they need a little more to help keep them on par with everyone else. So yes, it is ABSOLUTELY sacrificing 300 minerals because you aren't going to get those 300 minerals.
Anyway, yeah cloaked ghosts are your best bet against High Templar. EMP their probably balled up High Templar and move it. They'll probably complain after the fight about how OP Terran is which frustrates me
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I myself play mech vs Toss and I try to get a good tank spread so its hard to storm atone of tanks at once. Ht's sort of suck vs tanks from my experience. Best they can do is Chargelots,archons or Collosui. My army is usually like 20 tanks, Hellions and some missle turrents. Ghosts can help if you get a 3rd faster. If you get my unit comp templars will just be useless.
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On August 24 2010 22:02 Menn0 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 20:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Also - as food for thought - I would like to propose a minor change in the protoss spell distribution:
Archons gain feedback
HT lose feedback but gain hallucination (no research for hallucination required)
sentries lose hallucination (which is underused anyhow atm)
Don't change it. Look at the range of EMP. Now look at the range of Feedback. Look back at the range of EMP. EMP has 3 or 4 more range. Have your Ghosts in the mid and before the HT's can even feedback you can EMP already. Also before they storm! The only problem you have is if the Toss player makes Phoenixes (thanks NightEnd) and lifts tanks and your ghosts you have a slight problem, though the marines should be able to fix that with focus fireing.
THIS THREAD IS NOW DIAMONDS? 
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You can circumvent HTs very easily in the late-game. They're incredibly dangerous when they first come out, but after a certain point in the game, they become a non-issue.
Scan+Vikings destroy all Observers -> Cloaked Ghosts run up and EMP all the HTs. The only hope you have at that point is just storming the fuck out of the area with the ripple, but it takes 5 ticks to kill the Ghosts and you probably won't get them all before they land their EMPs.
You probably don't even need to get rid of the Observers. They have a tiny sight-radius and Ghosts have a ton of health usually giving you a lot of time to spot the HTs and EMP them before they go down. No Psi Storm = completely neutered Protoss army.
I actually won a game once because, instead of EMP, the guy decided to send 5 Ghosts to snipe my HTs. I was like wtf. If he just EMPed, then sent in his bio ball, he would have won instantly. Instead he scanned and killed my Observer, then went for Snipe, killed a couple, but my blind storm spam got them all and I had four HTs left to Psi Storm the rest of his blob.
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On August 25 2010 02:22 PiM wrote:
I think emp need to be researched like storm 200/200. Why not ?
Because Cloak already has to be researched and it costs 200/200
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On August 25 2010 03:54 Veyron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2010 02:22 PiM wrote:
I think emp need to be researched like storm 200/200. Why not ? Because Cloak already has to be researched and it costs 200/200
That's the Banshee one. The Ghost one is 150/150.
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Ghosts are the best response. When fighting high templars with ghosts/bio you need to be super aware of when you are getting attacked and where the toss army is. If you are caught off guard and your entire army gets stormed it is usually gg.
What I like to do is make sensor towers and use scv scouts so that you can see early that you are being attacked and be ready to emp as he comes at you. This works the opposite way as well in that if you can emp high templars before protoss realizes you are attacking you can win the game right there so try and scan and kill his observers that want to float on top of your army
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One strategy I saw was to have a hitsquad of banshees, EMP them, and then have them flank around and kill HTs.
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On August 25 2010 04:22 PacketOverflow wrote:
One strategy I saw was to have a hitsquad of banshees, EMP them, and then have them flank around and kill HTs.
If you want to do that, just cloak/decloak and repeat until you have under 25 energy on each banshee... then you can save emp for the high templars you aren't able to snipe. This is not normally going to work though, usually all of your banshees will die to stalker or pheonix and it won't be worth it at all. High templars won't be straying far from the main protoss army.
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Ghost. That's the answer. EMP has a range of 10, but an aoe of 2, so the effective range is 11. HTs have a range of 9 on both storm and feedback and are also slow as hell. EMP is also AoE, while feedback is single target. Storm also only does 80 damage assuming you sit through the whole storm, so sniping or killing ghosts preemptively with storm isn't viable.
Get more than 1 ghost and utilize cloak. Yes, obs will help to nullify that, but with cloak you will still be able to get into better position. Sneak around the army. HTs are often trailing behind the main army to hep prevent EMP rape and also because of their slowness.
Terran does not have a problem in the HT-ghost conflict. It's the Protoss that has to worry about EMP, with spreading and prevention of HT sniping.
EDIT: In the case that you just don't like ghosts or w/e, hellions with pre-igniter work quite well also. A group of 4+ hellions will roast HTs in one hit. Additionally, hellions have (imo) too much hp, allowing them to survive for quite a while with their insane speed; at least long enough to kill a few straggling HTs. Keep in mind that they're light units and Protoss has nothing that deals bonus to light.
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if you're not ghost playing, practice doing army splitting before engaging.
backup medivacs
split left
split right
adjust middle group
T
1a
move groups back that get stormed.
but if it's really late game, getting tanks or ghosts are absolutely needed to snipe full energy templar, because all the spreading out/micro in the world won't help you forever
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Here is a replay of hellions vs templar.
I won't spoil the outcome for anybody.
Disclaimer: We are both around mid-diamond and I make plenty of macro mistakes and fall behind on upgrades etc, but you can at least see the hellion + bio + templar + zealot interactions clearly in the late game.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-142776.jpg)
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Both ghosts and banshees can be used very effectively vs HTs. Hellions with pre-igniter are a great option as well; I think that you are definitely undervaluing them in your analysis.
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On August 24 2010 21:44 Thrombozyt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 21:26 Nixda wrote:On August 24 2010 20:53 Thrombozyt wrote:
Also - as food for thought - I would like to propose a minor change in the protoss spell distribution:
Archons gain feedback
HT lose feedback but gain hallucination (no research for hallucination required)
sentries lose hallucination (which is underused anyhow atm)
As for these suggested changes, they would be quite major ones. Sentries are available a lot earlier than HTs - this would delay access to hallucination for what balance reason exactly ? Do you feel hallucination is a problem generally early in the game for you or is the only reason for it to be moved to force HTs to split their mana between storm and hallucination ? In this case, you mentioned yourself how hallucination is already an underused spell, I do not see this proposed change helping with that. HTs with hallucination but not feedback would be seriously weakened, so this change might actually help you. Storm is lower range while EMP is range 10. Ghosts seriously would have the edge now. It would also delay access to Feedback. And Archons getting feedback ? Hm, so basically Protoss would have only half the feedback casters (2 HTs -> 1 Archon) on a unit that has like 10 hp remaining after an EMP and is therefore rarely even considered useful against Terran ? I am sorry, I do not want to sound too harsh here, but you are asking for some major Protoss nerf here with no compensation at all, and I do not think the current state of game balance calls for that. Edit: edited to show correct EMP range of 10 My thought process was more along the lines that HT are so effective, because they combine two very strong spells. If feedback and strom would be on two different units, it would involve more protoss decision making. Thus I transfered feedback to the archons, as storm is the signature spell of HT. That leaves HT without any spell before research. So I thought of hallucination, which isn't a bad spell per se. Sentries are great units even without hallucination (which is rarely researched). I agree, that it would weaken protoss and I would be fine, if sentries or HT gained another ability instead. Archons could have double energy regen as well. EDIT: I also want to point out, that SC2 EMP is NOT BW EMP. The shield loss caps at 100, so even if archons are hit by 2 EMPs, they still have 100 shields left.
HT's are powerful. More powerful than ghost certainly. They are also 50m150g per, they are a tier 3 unit that have to have a 150m200g building bade solely for them followed up by a 200m200g upgrade to make them useful. Even at that point. Psi storm only does 80 damage over 8 ticks
in a 1.5 radius that can be vacated before all of the damage resolves. They have to get well within range of ghosts before they can cast storm and if they run out of energy, the fight will be effectively over before they can transform into archons, which are only really usefull if they are at the head of the army at the beginning of the fight.
So no, giving them hallucinate in place of feedback is not a fair adjustment. The only advantage you would be giving the toss player is making allowing DT's to transform into a more useful unit after harrassment.
Just remember that the transfer from Tier2 to Tier 3 is by far the most dangerous part of PvT game for the protoss player. Terrans already have the Tier2 advantage the toss player is compounding this issue by not building more units, but instead investing in a unit that is both costly and time consuming to create, and will not yield fruit until after additional research has been performed.
So yes they are a powerful unit. But they leave an even larger vulnerability window than the colossus and they prevent the toss player from getting early access to an observer if they want to get the HT out in time to combat tier 2.
+ Show Spoiler + On August 25 2010 03:44 Veyron wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 21:14 rextyrann wrote:
PS: scan is NOT sacrificing 300 mins. you are just going back to even footing resource wise and choose to relinquish an economic advantage which btw is not really much later in the game if you are on 2base+ You understand that this is used to even it our for Terran, right? They have to build their buildings with their units whereas Protoss warps in an goes back to mining. They also have Chronoboost. Zerg can just make a ton of Drones at a time but you could argue they need a little more to help keep them on par with everyone else. So yes, it is ABSOLUTELY sacrificing 300 minerals because you aren't going to get those 300 minerals. Anyway, yeah cloaked ghosts are your best bet against High Templar. EMP their probably balled up High Templar and move it. They'll probably complain after the fight about how OP Terran is which frustrates me
You're forgetting the fact that ALL of your buildings cost less than their protoss counterparts excluding the barracks, yes I realize you have to build tech labs but 50m25g is still better than a 150m cy core, a 150m100g council followed by a 150m200g templar archives and a 200m200g robotics support bay. So when you add the fact that your command center lets you build one more scv at the beginning of the game to help counter the mineral loss from your first supply depot. You really aren't losing out that much with the scv deal.
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I just lost a game where I was 198 food against 112. I had just double expanded to have five bases and I just killed his third expo. He crushed me with templar. I am just on the verge of quitting this game all together because of TvP lategame. Mech is too slow against protoss and will be even more useless after the patch and when you are in high food numbers its impossible to micro marauder/marine against templars because there are too many units.
This matchup has costed me 300 rating just today.
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EMP + sensor tower is probably borderline OP. Sensor tower lets you see where his army is; if you have any doubts, scan the red dots.
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I'm not sure why people aren't making more BC's in this matchup as it gets later. I understand the mobility disadvantages, but all toss has to deal with BC's are stalkers, void ray, and storm. If you can skew their army comp to stalkers, marauders become more effective.
I realize templar will feedback the bc's, so you have to be diligent about keeping their energy low.
But other than that it seems like a strong choice... Something like marauder ghost helion BC?
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keep your ghosts as a separate macro control unit, and separate them from your main force to one flank. You then have to worry about him singling out your ghosts first through observer work.
Really the best answer to this is to always be on the offensive. As terran, you have no excuse not to always be the pusher. Draw him out. Hit his expo with your main force, retreat, bring down/up your ghosts as they pursue, hit them, then run back with main and stim.
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On September 10 2010 05:40 VanGarde wrote:
I just lost a game where I was 198 food against 112. I had just double expanded to have five bases and I just killed his third expo. He crushed me with templar. I am just on the verge of quitting this game all together because of TvP lategame.
P is better than T lategame, but 198 food to 112? That's just bad play man.
Mech is too slow against protoss and will be even more useless after the patch and when you are in high food numbers its impossible to micro marauder/marine against templars because there are too many units.
Split the army up and drop more. Storm is best against big blobs, so don't make big blobs.
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On September 10 2010 08:04 Yaotzin wrote:Show nested quote +On September 10 2010 05:40 VanGarde wrote:
I just lost a game where I was 198 food against 112. I had just double expanded to have five bases and I just killed his third expo. He crushed me with templar. I am just on the verge of quitting this game all together because of TvP lategame.
P is better than T lategame, but 198 food to 112? That's just bad play man. Show nested quote +
Mech is too slow against protoss and will be even more useless after the patch and when you are in high food numbers its impossible to micro marauder/marine against templars because there are too many units.
Split the army up and drop more. Storm is best against big blobs, so don't make big blobs.
Thats exactly what I do. As I said, the problem with dealing with storm if you are playing a marine/marauder/medivac macro style is that at 200 food you actually can't split your army. In this particular case the map was metalopolis and I suggest that you try to micro a 200 supply bio army on that map. You will find that a full blop of bio pretty much fills the entire space between say the xel'naga tower and the cliff on the opposite side. You actually literally cannot split your army at that point.
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???
1. Fill up your medivacs with units.
2. Drop them in your opponents bases.
3. Goto 1.
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they serious need some sort of addon that only allows peoples with a certain rating to post in this forum similar to what arenajunkies has.
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Often if you're about to push, scan his base or scout. If you can find his HT's, cloak and run in. Even if its way before you move your army, you can nab away much needed energy, and you have plenty of time before storm recharges.
I've won many games by just scanning, finding a plot of HT's and hitting it with an emp.
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EPT
