[D] The New Morrow Opening (spoilers) - Page 6
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Snowfield
1289 Posts
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Disastorm
United States922 Posts
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john0507
164 Posts
The build is never to outright kill the zerg , but in fact to give terran the advantage going into midgame every single time. The reaper build doesnt really require the terran to sac his early game econ in any way , but till now there isn't a build that doesn't A) Require the zerg to sacrifice quite heavily on econ. B) Force zerg into a one base play throughout the early game. | ||
Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On August 23 2010 17:30 Lighioana wrote: Why no spine crawlers? When I see reaper or helion harass I usually make 2 spine crawlers and holds all the time. Of course, I'm low level diamond, so it's quite debatable whether it's the way to go or not. Oh, and before someone say that spines get raped by mass reapers, it's just a matter of where you place them. And that is behind the hatchery. If they get in to get the kill on the spine you block retreat with speedlings. 8 or 9 reapers will just demo charge it to death in a near instant, and if you place them obscurely he can just aim something else On August 25 2010 04:47 john0507 wrote: Reapers aren't the issue , they aren't imba by any means , just simply a good starting unit. The problem lies with zerg , the reaper opening won't work against ANY other Race due to the T1 units the other 2 Races have (Rines/Marauders/Stalkers) fair relatively well against reapers due to range. Then take a look at what T1 units Zerg has with decent range ... absolutely nothing. Hence there is no Hard counter , or even soft counter for the Reaper Opening, even at best if you micro perfectly you are just able to even out , which ends in you surviving and not losing econ , and him getting a "free" expansion and transitioning perfectly into a BioMech Mid/Late game, Which IMO , favours Terran more. 6rax 6 refinery reaper cheese a protoss, unless theyr some sort of god and get a core up while your harassing, you win | ||
Marke
Sweden279 Posts
Mass Tier1 from one base is way to easy to win vs any builds for zerg really. Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg? | ||
Dreaming11
United Kingdom105 Posts
I think a viable counter would have been for in those 2 games, for the people I was playing against to instead of confronting my roaches with reapers, send them to my base and just ruin my eco and try and bunker up around command centre, a base race as it were. But he had only two / three by the time my roaches got there, was easy pickings. This would be even more effective if reapers become 2 supply (which doesn't seem so unreasonable to me at least), because you take out the supply depot at his ramp first and instantly supply block him. I'm not a pro, but I'm just saying for me, at my level, it worked. At higher levels it might be difficult keeping them alive vs good reaper micro, but 5 roaches is scary for the terran when he has just a few reapers, and an extra 10 speedlings arrive within 10 - 15s which makes it 10x easier to close them down and then go to work on the tech labs (my preferred targets atm to stop reapers / marauders popping ASAP, but maybe more effective to go straight for the workers?). | ||
Ouga
Finland645 Posts
Also I don't think terrans understand how idioticly thin the larva decisions can be early. It seriously is so bad that @ 10ling 20drone your decision to make +2drone instead of +4lings can lose you the game, as it can other way around. There's numerous timings for terran to win this game early on, but he's never absolutely set to lose if he fails the harrass. That's what I kinda hate in playing zvt the most - zerg can't afford to lose any big fights pre-ultras. If terran microes well and gets some good tank shots to banes, and ends up losing very few marines, he can almost always just stim run to your base and destroy everything. But if zerg destroys everything, sure he gets advantage, but he can never still touch even T's nat due to awesome clifftanks. There are so many things I hate about the matchup, but I know if terrans' capabilities were reduced a little bit it'd give so much extra room for opposing races. I know they aren't doing this, but let's assume they removed cloak research from banshees. This would change tvp and tvz TONS for right direction. It's something you can't scout, but you'll lose against if you didn't go ~fast lair/robo. I for one would like a chance to play zvt without fast lair, fast roach, fast spling, fast overseer, fast spire for once. There's just no resources to make those damn drones when it seems you have to get ready for everything at once. | ||
john0507
164 Posts
On August 25 2010 17:52 Dreaming11 wrote: I beat this twice yesterday with 5 roach rush. I'm by no means great, but I felt I was able to handle it easily. The transition to marauders happens just as my speedlings start arriving at his base too, and then I'm in his base, with 2 hatcheries rallied just pumping out speedlings until the GG comes. I think a viable counter would have been for in those 2 games, for the people I was playing against to instead of confronting my roaches with reapers, send them to my base and just ruin my eco and try and bunker up around command centre, a base race as it were. But he had only two / three by the time my roaches got there, was easy pickings. This would be even more effective if reapers become 2 supply (which doesn't seem so unreasonable to me at least), because you take out the supply depot at his ramp first and instantly supply block him. I'm not a pro, but I'm just saying for me, at my level, it worked. At higher levels it might be difficult keeping them alive vs good reaper micro, but 5 roaches is scary for the terran when he has just a few reapers, and an extra 10 speedlings arrive within 10 - 15s which makes it 10x easier to close them down and then go to work on the tech labs (my preferred targets atm to stop reapers / marauders popping ASAP, but maybe more effective to go straight for the workers?). Replay of it pls , cos there is no way a decent terran ... a) Fail to micro EASILY against roaches with no speed upgrade and even out of creep. b) Lets u have 2 hatcheries peacefully. And i do seriously wonder with u doing 5 roach rush which eats into your supposed econ , AND get lings AND the speed upgrade , how many reapers should a (decent) terran have by then. If u have a replay showing this works well against a decent terran , then grats we have found our counter. | ||
john0507
164 Posts
On August 25 2010 20:12 Ouga wrote: I have beat some 1k point terrans who are trying to mimic this. It still feels so much harder for me, and I know I probably would've lost if opponents had any faking in them. It requires you to morph almost only lings if he has more than 1rax reaper, and takes all scouting possibilities out. If instead of 1-3-5rax reaper he chooses to switch after 2rax to banshees, you're screwed. I think idra had the best possible reaction to this in IEM - ~21hat after speed on the way, warren ready when lair up, instant speed on roaches while scouting with overseer. This can counter some of the followups, but you'll still lose against some. It's still razorthin if you can even beat banshee followup with this since you'll need to instantly start +2queens and new overseer to have any chance. Also I don't think terrans understand how idioticly thin the larva decisions can be early. It seriously is so bad that @ 10ling 20drone your decision to make +2drone instead of +4lings can lose you the game, as it can other way around. There's numerous timings for terran to win this game early on, but he's never absolutely set to lose if he fails the harrass. That's what I kinda hate in playing zvt the most - zerg can't afford to lose any big fights pre-ultras. If terran microes well and gets some good tank shots to banes, and ends up losing very few marines, he can almost always just stim run to your base and destroy everything. But if zerg destroys everything, sure he gets advantage, but he can never still touch even T's nat due to awesome clifftanks. There are so many things I hate about the matchup, but I know if terrans' capabilities were reduced a little bit it'd give so much extra room for opposing races. I know they aren't doing this, but let's assume they removed cloak research from banshees. This would change tvp and tvz TONS for right direction. It's something you can't scout, but you'll lose against if you didn't go ~fast lair/robo. I for one would like a chance to play zvt without fast lair, fast roach, fast spling, fast overseer, fast spire for once. There's just no resources to make those damn drones when it seems you have to get ready for everything at once. This guy gets it. I believe Idra did the best he could've against this build as well. kudos to him he did come back and pull off a win. If u actually look at the stats , after the reaper opening , regardless of whether it succeeded , Morrow always came out ahead econ wise. And if the terran decides to mess with your head (like IEM final game 4) , you're screwed. Terran already had so many possible openings , and now there is this reaper opening that if zerg doesnt respond perfectly you're dead , if u do respond perfectly , u survive but terran still comes out with the econ advantage going into mid game , now that is really broken. | ||
Comrade
Sweden102 Posts
On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote: I respect morrow for winning this tournament for sure, But look at the facts... Mass Tier1 from one base is way to easy to win vs any builds for zerg really. Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg? On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote: But look at the facts... ...Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg? On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote: ...facts... ...Remove Mules... Are you even a little bit serious? | ||
kilvan
Canada1 Post
Before he get too much reapers your lair will finish (since its super early) and the insta-boost from creep with prevent him from making insane amount of dommage since he wont risk speedlings surrounds | ||
Pwere
Canada1554 Posts
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Neuuubeh
138 Posts
Vs decent players such as morrow i dont know what you can do.. But I've never played at such a high level anyhow | ||
zeRkaz
Singapore16 Posts
but makes roaches way better against reapers | ||
Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote: I respect morrow for winning this tournament for sure, But look at the facts... Mass Tier1 from one base is way to easy to win vs any builds for zerg really. Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg? So Flash beating Jaedong with pure MM is BW imba? O_o EDIT: There's nothing wrong with winning with mass T1 imo, but that should and does require much more skill to pull off than winning with higher tech. | ||
QkDown
United States214 Posts
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