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On August 23 2010 12:56 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.) This seems really dubious. Your fast teching to lair if ii'm not mistaken as well as stockpiling gas to get 1-2 infestors out with mp upgrades. That's... a fair bit of gas. that's 100 (lair) + 100 (infestor pit) + 150 (research) + 150 (per infestor). That's 500 gas right there. According to Liquipedia (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources) It takes 3 drones to gather 114 gas per game minute. So i'm assuming your getting both gases asap. But that's 8 drones off minerals right there. And if your fending off with lings and spines, how are you gonna be able to drone up enough as well as afford tech/overlord costs? Especially with the delayed queen too. I'm of the mind that if the T just happens to scan you and sees no queen/early lair he'll just do a push of some sort with all the raxes already building. If you can post a replay of this BO, or just post the actual BO, i'll be less skeptical.
I'm still refining it, the old BO that i used vs mech (that also got infestors out at a similiar time (slightly slower than the 1 base) was 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, lair when pool finished, and gas when lair starts, then 1 crawler at nat + 4 lings , taking towers if not steppes. i put 1 ling outside of the enemy base so i could see a move out and respond. pretty much works that way vs mech. i'm using a modified version where i go 13 gas 14 pool lair after pool then gas when lair goes up. and 6 zerglings when lair is going up. so far everything is lining up except the infestor pit. which comes about 5-8 seconds too late.
i'm starting to think to 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, but put the hatch in my main (a bit closer to the cliff, to act as a creep tumor + queen pretty much) but i haven't tried this, it'd work in theory (and also allow a queen to come up early too)
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Since we're discussing: Does a good speedling-baneling bust beat this? (As in, 5:30-5:45 game time) I've had plenty of terrans rush reapers against me, and they never get the chance to hit 5 rax.
Not that it matters, but I'm a 500 Zerg. In the higher ranks, it might be different.
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On August 23 2010 10:16 PrinceXizor wrote:
But yeah it's beatable but as soon as 50% terrans go for 2 reapers into mech and 50% go 2 reapers into more reapers. i don't know what can be done, as it'll become too difficult to deal with both strategies in the meta.
I agree, a couple of reapers don't delay Terran builds by very much at all, but will pose a huge dilemma to the opponent.
As a Terran, this is certainly the week to buzz a Zerg with a couple of reapers before you transition to your normal build. Most will probably overreact and stunt their own economy while you send your reapers back to the watch tower to chill out, talk about Morrow, and chuckle.
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The worst part about reapers is that they're damn near invincible in the hands of a good player. Because of their range and speed, you quite literally can not kill a reaper unless the terran screws up. When you have to rely on your opponent mis-microing in order to beat his build, something is really really wrong. This is only going to get worse as players reaper control improves over time.
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Why no spine crawlers? When I see reaper or helion harass I usually make 2 spine crawlers and holds all the time. Of course, I'm low level diamond, so it's quite debatable whether it's the way to go or not.
Oh, and before someone say that spines get raped by mass reapers, it's just a matter of where you place them. And that is behind the hatchery. If they get in to get the kill on the spine you block retreat with speedlings.
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If you put spines behind the hatchery, the hatchery itself is snipeable.
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On August 23 2010 17:44 dogabutila wrote:
If you put spines behind the hatchery, the hatchery itself is snipeable.
I think he intended to move them to a more useful position after building them behind the hatchery.
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On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? also sorry for calling it the Morrow opening; i just have yet to see anyone have real legitimate success with it. When morrow used it, it wasnt an allin; it had a strong transition to midgame.
demuslim used it against idra and dimaga in the earlier stages of IEM before morrow...
it worked a couple of times.
why don't you call the marine/tank push the 'morrow build' too? 
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Get infestors to punish the lack of tanks. They are more efficient than banelings. Anything with stim and no medivacs is gonna be meat for fungal growth.
+ Show Spoiler +Original post was far too long.
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I just extracted the build order and posted it here. There is also a YABOT file to train it on Xel.
+ Show Spoiler +I think the bo can be slowed a bit down if you manage to steal the gas (this gives you 15 to 20 additionally seconds, but can be countered with an unfinished ref.) The first Reaper leaves the Rax at 3:48 and the first attack starts around 7:00. This could leave room for cheesing if the Terran scout at 12 does not get to see something, but this is rare. I guess the only way to adjust pressure is to use the creep tumors well and make a transition after Roaches to Banelings and Mutas. But this is quite gas intense and relies on your good micro. It may be possible that I add some AI to this opening so you can train against it with insane AI.
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On August 23 2010 19:02 Crymoreplz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 17:44 dogabutila wrote:
If you put spines behind the hatchery, the hatchery itself is snipeable. I think he intended to move them to a more useful position after building them behind the hatchery.
Like I said, if you put spines behind the hatch it is snipeable and if you put it too far out then the mass reapers can kill it while taking only like 1 reaper lost.
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Let us list what is needed to defend this build:
-an expansion must be put down or it's 2 base Terran vs 1base Zerg.
-speedlings will not defend you if they don't lose reapers; therefore lings stall you until roach speed or mutas which requires lair.
-so we need to concoct a build that gives u speedlings, roaches, an expansion, and fast lair. What's a way to do this?
Let's not care about drone count rite now say you could 100 percent bul units and tech. How would u approach this problem?
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I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire.
Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521
Edit:
Just to extrapolate some...
1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder.
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On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder.
See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings.
Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo.
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On August 24 2010 01:53 Arcticc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder. See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings. Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo.
no way you can defend, get lair, spire, baneling nest, and drones off one base.
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On August 24 2010 02:10 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:53 Arcticc wrote:On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder. See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings. Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo. no way you can defend, get lair, spire, baneling nest, and drones off one base.
You can absolutely defend, get lair, spire, roach warren and drones off one base.
I've never really bothered with a switch to banes, because against the reaper build, mutas generally just win the game outright.
Roaches on creep can deal with the reapers. 3 of them with your queen will keep you safe until muta. Once the muta are out, just fly to his base and win. The reaper investment is so steep that unless he figures out what you're doing, he won't have any anti-air at all... And even if he does figure it out, he's most likely to build marines while throwing down an ebay, and your muta will slaughter 5-7 marines easily.
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On August 24 2010 02:18 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 02:10 gods_basement wrote:On August 24 2010 01:53 Arcticc wrote:On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder. See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings. Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo. no way you can defend, get lair, spire, baneling nest, and drones off one base. You can absolutely defend, get lair, spire, roach warren and drones off one base. I've never really bothered with a switch to banes, because against the reaper build, mutas generally just win the game outright. Roaches on creep can deal with the reapers. 3 of them with your queen will keep you safe until muta. Once the muta are out, just fly to his base and win. The reaper investment is so steep that unless he figures out what you're doing, he won't have any anti-air at all... And even if he does figure it out, he's most likely to build marines while throwing down an ebay, and your muta will slaughter 5-7 marines easily.
I was just suggesting baneling nest down the road to deal with the marine reaction to the mutas, in case it goes that long. I don't understand this build is indefensible. How is going expansion/roaches more defensible? This build takes the expo out of the equation making the harass confined and easier to deal with. (although that depends a lot on the map)
Edit: Also, I was suggesting that baneling nest be built after putting up an expo when the mutas come out.
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On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder.
3 roaches are not enough to defend 10-15 reapers with a terran that can micro.
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even if the figure out a way to stop the mass reaper openings were still gonna have the general issue of zergs not being able to scout terrans in the early game on top of terrans having tons of viable strategies. faking, bluffing and if u wanna call it cheesing then sure but its relly just the strongest way to play tvz.
i hope they make the races more equal so they both can expand or go early harass instead of zerg only being able to expo while terran only being able to harass. sure terran can have fast expo builds but if zerg scouts that then he can counter it so easy by massing drones and terran will be so far behind.
midgame and lategame tvz should be pretty fine but its just the early game thats always this coinflip because we see idra sac a lord to scout and he see my fake reaper build so u can call that to scout but then its just fake and he dies. so in theory he scouts it perfectly and responds to it perfectly but zerg can never fully know what terran is doing and i think thats a really big issue. there are so many hard counters (sorry day9) and ways to play early game that it comes down quite a bit to luck or mindgames if u wanna call it that
so ye nerfing reaper would probably move in the right direction but blizzard needs to dig alot deeper than that if they truly want a solid tvz early game in theory
this all has obviously been talked about just enough and right now im just not gonna discuss anymore because most of us are on the same page and agreeing on the issue and now its just up to blizzard to fix it
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Well said from the man himself, Morrow. Grats again and great play all IEM!
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EPT
