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This is not a Terran whine thread. This is not a place for you to derail us into a Terran whine thread. I am a Terran player, and I just want to see others' strategic analysis and possible improvements or weaknesses of this build.
Sorry for calling it the Morrow opening. i should have said "morrow's opening at IEM."
So anyone who watched IEM yesterday saw probably the most abusive TvZ opening ever: 5 rax reaper. The build allowed a contain, an economy harass, AND an early-ish expansion. Entering the midgame 2base vs 2base is a pretty insurmountable lead. The first units that can handle reapers effectively are mutalisks. While speed roaches work, on maps like blistering sands, the "sweet spot" is just so amazingly powerful, and it does not effectively "shut down" the reapers.
The reason for this thread is to discuss possible weaknesses and timings that this build has. It is my personal belief that when Idra beat Morrow, it was because of Morrow making a mistake and giving up his reapers too soon, not because of any inherent timing window of this build. However, perhaps a better Zerg can tell me otherwise.
To be fair, on blistering sands, Idra's mechanics started slipping, and maybe that lost him the game.
I think that this build is quite analogous to 2 hatch muta, except that 2hatch muta requires much more work and precision for the rush to erode away the macro sacrifices.
A list of my questions follow: Is there a counter to this build? If a player effectively defends, do i enter the midgame behind? How soon after lair tech do i have to begin pumping marine/maurader, and which do i get? Is there any style of play that can go toe-to-toe with this build? Is there something in my analysis that i'm missing?
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Mass muta is really strong, and when doing reaper openings (I usually do 3 rax, more economic, feels ALOT less dependant on doing damage, earlier expo) one base muta tends to give me problems. Not because of them hitting me with no turrets up or something like that, but more that I'm forced to build loads of turrets while getting marine/tank/medivac up.
Feels like you really can't move out and there are always spots for good Zs to pick out with mutas. When you actually do move out a single error costs you the game because of banelings.
5 rax reaper might just outright win versus one base muta, not sure. Probably is hard to defend while teching so fast.
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It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong.
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hey the last game was pretty sweet.
+ Show Spoiler +it was morrow vs idra on steppes
2rax marauder
reactor'ed hellions while HIDING UNITS
then push with scvs/hellions/marauders
caught idra off guard (well technically he went for an FE with a roach warren/baneling nest *BUT morrow abused a timing window. excellent ace in the hole there morrow!
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+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone.
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On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong.
did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong
lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper
On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone.
Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread?
also sorry for calling it the Morrow opening; i just have yet to see anyone have real legitimate success with it. When morrow used it, it wasnt an allin; it had a strong transition to midgame.
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+ Show Spoiler +yeah but i think morrow opening 5rax reapers in the three previous games prior threw idra just *enough. i think the clutch moment tbh was when NONE of the marauders popped out during the time the lone early overlord was scouting. i think morrow would have cancelled the marauders just in-case anyway, but miraculously, none of them popped during the overlords sacrifice.
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On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong.
HD and Painuser casted a few videos of LZgamer using the strat for the day9 countdown party. It must of been a pretty new strat at the time because machine, sheth (i think), and other obs didn't know a good counter to it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? ---- i agree, i watched almost all of morrow's games via replay for the iem because im a fanboy/terran/nerd. he did marine/tanks against dimaga heh.
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Not sure, but Im pretty sure Lzgamer coined this build order over a month ago. Really strong opening tho
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i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject.
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Going Roaches to counter Reapers is asking to get marauder stomped. because not only do Roaches not deal with Reapers but they also delay the Muta, which is what will finally deal with reapers and get you back in the fight.
It seems counter intuitive but your better off just going ling/queen for defense. Spread creep around and the Ling speed can keep Reapers from doing any serious damage. Your obviously going to eat some ling losses but thats irrelevant compared to what will happen if you go roach.
From a Terran perspective theres a time to stop building Reapers. Morrow was a little late in a few of his matches and it cost him a good chunk of the lead he had earned. Ultimately Idra fell back on Roaches and I don't feel that was the right choice either.
I'd list the Gas requirement for Mass reaper as a pretty big weakness.
I would like to try the numbers on +1 weapons timing push for it though
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I think they key to beating it is to focus on constant creep spread while getting quick Roaches and getting speed for Roaches as quickly as possible while still having enough roaches to defend. When you have a good creapspread try to hunt the reapers if they enter your creep but never leave you creep with the roaches. Having a group of speedlings that you try to surround with if he walks too far onto your creep is probably a good idea to. Or try to use zerglings above and below a cliff to trap him. This is more or less what Idra did in the games where he defended well against it.
I can't think of anything that would work better than that. I don't think it's possible to defend with only speedlings until you get mutas without losing your expansion if your opponent plays well. On some maps it will be really hard and if your opponent plays well there might not be much you can do. On other maps it's probably better not to open with reapers. You need to have many angles to attack from and cliffs you can run to for defense so you don't get surrounded by lings.
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On August 23 2010 09:50 brn4meplz wrote:
I'd list the Gas requirement for Mass reaper as a pretty big weakness.
I would like to try the numbers on +1 weapons timing push for it though
mauraders are super gas cheap, and +1 weapons doesnt really help reapers vs. anything zerg has.
when you say +1 weapons, do you mean for the zerg to +1 weapons their way into victory? roach hydra +1 attack is too late to exploit the expo timing, and +1 roaches are just as bad as +0 roaches vs maurader
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On August 23 2010 09:43 crazeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. HD and Painuser casted a few videos of LZgamer using the strat for the day9 countdown party. It must of been a pretty new strat at the time because machine, sheth (i think), and other obs didn't know a good counter to it.
No I'm pretty sure this was a 3 barracks reaper. He added extra barracks after his cc. Didn't he?
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On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject.
This works if you get infestor OR baneling speed OR do an amazing micro job and get mutas.
If you actually do everything properly the infestor comes out (with 75 energy because of pathogen glands) just as they hit about 8 reapers, and 2 infestors can kill a group of reapers without being hurt, OR 1 infestor and roaches can kill a ton of reapers. alternately 2 speed banelings + 1 for every 3 reapers can kill hordes of reapers, the key is crowd control, something that ONLY infestor and baneling really provide. ultralisks to an extent but only vs certain groups.
But note, doing this on 1 base = instant loss to mech play and typical mech pushes, doing this on 2 base = instant loss to reaper play and reaper harrass.
but yeah reapers are weak to the croud control units baneling and infestor. and both are good vs the typical bio followup.
EDIT And thinking about it if i posted a nerf to reapers i'd likely say they should have projectiles. that way they don't auto split their attacks to 2/Ling and kill groups of lings instantly when kiting, they would kill alot less per stop, meaning lings would at least not be so larva intensive to deal with, that or making the anti building weapon very short range so static defenses stand a chance.
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*derail*
+ Show Spoiler +
I was undecided between Z and T at diamond but after a 45 minute TvT tank+viking fest, I was turned off the idea of playing terran almost completely. Then I watched IEM yesterday and I could not be any more disgusted by the race.
Between "skillful" marauder "kiting" (Good job finding the s button!), abusive reaper play with all the cliffs and even more abusive hellion play, I could not play one more game as terran. It is my personal belief that abuse of game mechanics has nothing to do with skill (I know I'm in the minority.. I've had this argument in every game I've ever played).
Really, farthest/hardest hitting ground unit, fastest hardest hitting most mobile harass units, farthest hitting air to air units, easiest tech line and scan on demand... bleh. */derail*
I'm of the opinion that "mass reaper" builds into hellions will get shit on by roach builds that switch to speedlings once the T goes marauders. The reason being that the reapers can be abusive against roaches when they are kiting them, but they can try to kite at their own risk when the roaches are in T's base.
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On August 23 2010 09:56 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject. This works if you get infestor OR baneling speed OR do an amazing micro job and get mutas. If you actually do everything properly the infestor comes out (with 75 energy because of pathogen glands) just as they hit about 8 reapers, and 2 infestors can kill a group of reapers without being hurt, OR 1 infestor and roaches can kill a ton of reapers. alternately 2 speed banelings + 1 for every 3 reapers can kill hordes of reapers, the key is crowd control, something that ONLY infestor and baneling really provide. ultralisks to an extent but only vs certain groups. But note, doing this on 1 base = instant loss to mech play and typical mech pushes, doing this on 2 base = instant loss to reaper play and reaper harrass. but yeah reapers are weak to the croud control units baneling and infestor. and both are good vs the typical bio followup.
what? really? you can have upgraded infestors by the time i have 8 reapers? that cant be right. are reapers just that slow?
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On August 23 2010 09:56 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject. This works if you get infestor OR baneling speed OR do an amazing micro job and get mutas. If you actually do everything properly the infestor comes out (with 75 energy because of pathogen glands) just as they hit about 8 reapers, and 2 infestors can kill a group of reapers without being hurt, OR 1 infestor and roaches can kill a ton of reapers. alternately 2 speed banelings + 1 for every 3 reapers can kill hordes of reapers, the key is crowd control, something that ONLY infestor and baneling really provide. ultralisks to an extent but only vs certain groups. But note, doing this on 1 base = instant loss to mech play and typical mech pushes, doing this on 2 base = instant loss to reaper play and reaper harrass. but yeah reapers are weak to the croud control units baneling and infestor. and both are good vs the typical bio followup.
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous.
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On August 23 2010 09:44 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? ---- i agree, i watched almost all of morrow's games via replay for the iem because im a fanboy/terran/nerd. he did marine/tanks against dimaga heh.
+ Show Spoiler +MorroW was on djWHEAT's Weapon of Choice today, and said that Dimaga helped him prepare for the idrA match. Dimaga was the one who told him about the 5rax reaper opening, so I'm sure that had something to do with him not using it vs Dimaga.
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On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous.
Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor).
so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.)
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On August 23 2010 09:59 Vexx wrote:*derail* + Show Spoiler +
I was undecided between Z and T at diamond but after a 45 minute TvT tank+viking fest, I was turned off the idea of playing terran almost completely. Then I watched IEM yesterday and I could not be any more disgusted by the race.
Between "skillful" marauder "kiting" (Good job finding the s button!), abusive reaper play with all the cliffs and even more abusive hellion play, I could not play one more game as terran. It is my personal belief that abuse of game mechanics has nothing to do with skill (I know I'm in the minority.. I've had this argument in every game I've ever played).
Really, farthest/hardest hitting ground unit, fastest hardest hitting most mobile harass units, farthest hitting air to air units, easiest tech line and scan on demand... bleh. */derail*
I'm of the opinion that "mass reaper" builds into hellions will get shit on by roach builds that switch to speedlings once the T goes marauders. The reason being that the reapers can be abusive against roaches when they are kiting them, but they can try to kite at their own risk when the roaches are in T's base.
it's the developer's problem to be honest. players will abuse anything to get ahead. too bad they are actual units lol.
i like what some guy posted what he found from a korean site on the 'BACKWARD DEVELOPMENT' of SC2 starting from the roach.
and i for one, agree to many of the points. specifically stating that many of the units were created specifically as counters in a sense, and not for their creativity. eg. reavers+shuttles, spider mine map control (OMG i miss this), stop lurker traps (well you can baneling trap i suppose lol), moving shot etc...
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On August 23 2010 09:50 brn4meplz wrote:
It seems counter intuitive but your better off just going ling/queen for defense. Spread creep around and the Ling speed can keep Reapers from doing any serious damage. Your obviously going to eat some ling losses but thats irrelevant compared to what will happen if you go roach.
As MorroW showed us during the tournament, this will get your expansion sacked. The only chance you have of saving your expansion with this approach is to get a massive surround on his reapers, but when the Terran has gotten around 10 reapers, he's reached the point where he can decimate your lings before they get their surround. What I mean is that using the ling/queen approach is entirely reliant on the Terran player making a blunder, rather than having a practical and solid defense.
In my opinion, the best way to counter this, is to spread out the creep as far as possible, so your Roaches can chase the Reapers as far as possible, and position them strategically along the cliff edges of your bases. Not overcomitting to the Roach force, and knowing when you're able to get your (relatively) fast tech off will be the deciding factor in this defense.
I'm not a Zerg player however. My last paragraph is mostly theorycrafting, but loosely based on what little success IdrA had vs. this strategy. On Metalopolis, where MorroW lost, he didn't manage to hurt IdrA's economy in time, and delayed his big push to the point where he let IdrA build up 6 Mutalisks, which instantly lost him the game.
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On August 23 2010 10:04 Okiesmokie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:44 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? ---- i agree, i watched almost all of morrow's games via replay for the iem because im a fanboy/terran/nerd. he did marine/tanks against dimaga heh. + Show Spoiler +MorroW was on djWHEAT's Weapon of Choice today, and said that Dimaga helped him prepare for the idrA match. Dimaga was the one who told him about the 5rax reaper opening, so I'm sure that had something to do with him not using it vs Dimaga.
i personally like to think of it as a message to idra/blizzard lol.
1. idra i think was known to lose specifically to reaper play on the ladder (USbnet according to match checking nerds, he's still at like 100-20+ WL anyway though)
2. blizzard needs to see personally how ugly the matchup looks when you open lol reapers. what more if you put this in the hands of everyone else against low apm, less then 'nerdy' kids? it's like giving a gun to a 12 year old vs a trained swordsman. swordsman will probably die in a head on fight.
----
i enjoy'ed the theme of marines/medics fighting the zerg horde., instead of of these fireflys hopping up and down cliffs 2-shotting zerglings just trying to chase them off -_-
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Any fast lair without the queen is pretty much impossible against this 5 barracks reaper play. Without the queen you couldn't spread creep if you put down your natural, or if no natural you would be horribly larva starved without a queen that you would hardly put up a fight against the reapers that are en route to your base.
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On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.)
I mean yeah in theory you'll have a infestor at X time, but its not like the terran will wait till he has 8 reapers before he begins his harassment. Once he gets around 5-6 speed reapers if you don't have roaches the game will be over. Not to mention your build skips a queen, no amount of zerglings or spine crawlers will save you and he will pick off your infestation pit while its building.
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What was i thinking, My math was all over the place here. Ignore
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Ironically the "weakness" of the reaper build is kind of also a strength a typical economical reaper will come out after the FE is finished, meaning zerg can't cancel and deal with them, because their build time is so slow you can hit outside the rax with a tech lab for a while before you even see the reaper. but yeah it's beatable but as soon as 50% terrans go for 2 reapers into mech and 50% go 2 reapers into more reapers. i don't know what can be done, as it'll become too difficult to deal with both strategies in the meta.
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Infestors are definitely not the answer, way too slow to get. I would guess just really good speedling micro and just try to hold on until mutas.
Or just roaches with a couple extra queens for transfusion and creep spread?
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On August 23 2010 10:15 Cika wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.) I mean yeah in theory you'll have a infestor at X time, but its not like the terran will wait till he has 8 reapers before he begins his harassment. Once he gets around 5-6 speed reapers if you don't have roaches the game will be over. Not to mention your build skips a queen, no amount of zerglings or spine crawlers will save you and he will pick off your infestation pit while its building.
no but you fend the reapers off until they have 4-5 reapers (and by then your speed should be incoming) and the speedlings can fend off reapers (not kill or even injure, just force retreats to stall)
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As mentioned, the big problems with the Roach method are how it slows you on tech. This also makes you vulnerable as you are forced to "play Terrans game". They have a rediculous amount of ground dominance, as they can tech to marauders/tanks to wipe them up while your slow Mutas come out.
Lings are a great counter to Reapers when there are just a few (similar to Hellions) but once they reach large amounts, it becomes very difficult to counter. More queens is great in theory, especially w/ heal micro, but the "Escape" is to tech to Lair, and Queens will slow the lair too much if you consistently pump enough of them.
So I believe we need to find a way to "stall" long enough with lings, and possibly spike crawlers (problem w/ them is Reapers ravage bulidings - but the big dmg and range of the Crawlers may be worth it if i get enough and combine them w/ Lings)
Would be great if Burrow was available earlier, as you could leave ling/bling "traps" around, but that's not viable atm....
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On August 23 2010 10:15 seiferoth10 wrote:
Any fast lair without the queen is pretty much impossible against this 5 barracks reaper play. Without the queen you couldn't spread creep if you put down your natural, or if no natural you would be horribly larva starved without a queen that you would hardly put up a fight against the reapers that are en route to your base.
when you get a nat you tend to be able to make a queen at it instead of the morphing lair. (this is what i did vs mech). but yeah the two styles require completely different responses which make the existance of both a serious threat.
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I love how it is called the Morrow build...except he never used it before this tournament.
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On August 23 2010 10:21 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:15 seiferoth10 wrote:
Any fast lair without the queen is pretty much impossible against this 5 barracks reaper play. Without the queen you couldn't spread creep if you put down your natural, or if no natural you would be horribly larva starved without a queen that you would hardly put up a fight against the reapers that are en route to your base. when you get a nat you tend to be able to make a queen at it instead of the morphing lair. (this is what i did vs mech). but yeah the two styles require completely different responses which make the existance of both a serious threat.
Unfortunately, the timing on making the queen at your natural is completely based on the Terran's willingness to attack. Many times during the IEM Cologne games, reapers came in force just when the Z's natural was finishing.
Edit: Yeah it probably works versus mech, but will definitely not work against 5 rax reaper.
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On August 23 2010 10:18 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:15 Cika wrote:On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.) I mean yeah in theory you'll have a infestor at X time, but its not like the terran will wait till he has 8 reapers before he begins his harassment. Once he gets around 5-6 speed reapers if you don't have roaches the game will be over. Not to mention your build skips a queen, no amount of zerglings or spine crawlers will save you and he will pick off your infestation pit while its building. no but you fend the reapers off until they have 4-5 reapers (and by then your speed should be incoming) and the speedlings can fend off reapers (not kill or even injure, just force retreats to stall)
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
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On August 23 2010 09:42 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +yeah but i think morrow opening 5rax reapers in the three previous games prior threw idra just *enough. i think the clutch moment tbh was when NONE of the marauders popped out during the time the lone early overlord was scouting. i think morrow would have cancelled the marauders just in-case anyway, but miraculously, none of them popped during the overlords sacrifice.
Lol miraculously ? He cancelled it, he's just not that stupid
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It's an imbalanced build. Morrow said so himself.
The problem is that reaper speed comes out so fast cause of the 50/50 cost that you don't even get an opportunity to push back the reapers with speedling or roach.
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On August 23 2010 09:43 crazeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. HD and Painuser casted a few videos of LZgamer using the strat for the day9 countdown party. It must of been a pretty new strat at the time because machine, sheth (i think), and other obs didn't know a good counter to it.
I'm fairly sure it was Machine and Strifecro, lotsa people seem to remember it being sheth O.O
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On August 23 2010 10:32 Cika wrote:
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
Thats the thing though, You don't commit Zerglings unless you can score some kills on a surround. You just takes 1-2 losses forcing him back off the creep(which you've dutifully spread) and you save gas for Muta's which is the best and earliest actual solution to reapers. Roaches get kited so they are just a delaying action. A delaying action that consumes gas
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On August 23 2010 10:32 Cika wrote:
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
6 reapers kill the zerglings when the reapers are not running away, so you go for the surround with your lings and run back when the reapers leave and repeat, it's sustainable.
also LOL at the gg before you are even lair, the whole infestor idea was based on the fast lair (lair before queen), which means the lair comes out about 30 game seconds after your queen would normally finish (IE before the first batch of larva pop). so you definitely get lair, and you use spine (s) and speedlings to force back reapers (while protecting the important things).
Like i said, regardless of what you do (infestors being the best way to beat the reaper + bio followup) you are going to fail mid game to a big push because you were on 1 base vs a 1 or 2 base terran. you have to create big timing windows (which can be closed a bit by good infestor play and overlord placement) in order to catch up. 2-4 reapers automatically put terran as a huge economic advantage without dealing any drone damage.
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I think the point is , if you cut too many corners against 5 rax reaper you just get completely walked over. Idra didn't have an immediate counter but like you mentioned (or someone) in game 3 he defended well but had huge macro slips and poor decision making, otherwise he might have won that game.
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On August 23 2010 10:41 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:32 Cika wrote:
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
also LOL at the gg before you are even lair, the whole infestor idea was based on the fast lair (lair before queen), which means the lair comes out about 30 game seconds after your queen would normally finish (IE before the first batch of larva pop). so you definitely get lair, and you use spine (s) and speedlings to force back reapers (while protecting the important things).
Remember, getting early lair also pushes back ling speed. With the 14 extractor/pool build, you have just about 100 gas as your pool pops.
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On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject.
I like this unconventional way of thinking, but unfortunately it won't work in this case. With the 14 gas -> 14 pool build that seems standard for zerg these days, it works out that you have the gas for lair just as the first queen pops (presuming you spent the first 100 on ling speed). Spending your first 100 gas on the lair would mean delaying ling speed until about the time a queen would normally pop -- which would be absolutely deadly when attempting to deal with speed upgraded reapers. No queen and later speed would essentially give the first three or so reapers free reign over your base.
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On August 23 2010 10:52 seiferoth10 wrote:
Remember, getting early lair also pushes back ling speed. With the 14 extractor/pool build, you have just about 100 gas as your pool pops.
I'm aware i've been running a fast lair for weeks, i'm quite familiar with the build. but it doesn't take very long to get speed, since you are going lair you tend to get your 2nd gas up while the lair is morphing, it delays the Zergling speed less than you think, but enough that you need a spine (or two if you are not sure how to play with your lings)
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On August 23 2010 10:13 Fortress wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:50 brn4meplz wrote:
It seems counter intuitive but your better off just going ling/queen for defense. Spread creep around and the Ling speed can keep Reapers from doing any serious damage. Your obviously going to eat some ling losses but thats irrelevant compared to what will happen if you go roach.
As MorroW showed us during the tournament, this will get your expansion sacked. The only chance you have of saving your expansion with this approach is to get a massive surround on his reapers, but when the Terran has gotten around 10 reapers, he's reached the point where he can decimate your lings before they get their surround. What I mean is that using the ling/queen approach is entirely reliant on the Terran player making a blunder, rather than having a practical and solid defense. In my opinion, the best way to counter this, is to spread out the creep as far as possible, so your Roaches can chase the Reapers as far as possible, and position them strategically along the cliff edges of your bases. Not overcomitting to the Roach force, and knowing when you're able to get your (relatively) fast tech off will be the deciding factor in this defense. I'm not a Zerg player however. My last paragraph is mostly theorycrafting, but loosely based on what little success IdrA had vs. this strategy. On Metalopolis, where MorroW lost, he didn't manage to hurt IdrA's economy in time, and delayed his big push to the point where he let IdrA build up 6 Mutalisks, which instantly lost him the game.
Let me start of by saying I am a 700 diamond zerg so what I'm saying is not theory crafting but out of my own experience. Also, I always spread creep in these games as much as I can and i usually put down 2 initial creep tumors in my base with my starting queen. I have tried several different openings against this build and going pure zerglings to mutas will get your expansion killed with ez. Once the reapers start getting big in numbers, zerglings are useless against them. Going roaches on the other hand may save your expansion but of the games I've played I've always come out behind even after surviving the initial reaper abuse. The terran meanwhile will have his expansion up and will have a healthy army at the same time. Also, if the terran decides to just sac all his reapers in return for most of your drone this will also put him ahead as he has marauders to defending the roaches and your economy will be even more behind.
Not sure what to do against this build.....
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I've successfully fended of various reaper-attacks with burrow, which is an ability I haven't seen mentioned. Burrowing a handful of zerglings at a strategic location has done me pretty well for instantly surrounding reapers—there is some level of prediction, but I think its benefits overshadow having to try to speedling-surround them.
I'm not an expert SC player, but does this strategy seem viable in this situation?
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On August 23 2010 11:26 Internet wrote:
I've successfully fended of various reaper-attacks with burrow, which is an ability I haven't seen mentioned. Burrowing a handful of zerglings at a strategic location has done me pretty well for instantly surrounding reapers—there is some level of prediction, but I think its benefits overshadow having to try to speedling-surround them.
I'm not an expert SC player, but does this strategy seem viable in this situation?
That is also a possibility, but you are just too vulnerable before Lair without any Roaches. If you get Roaches, it doesn't matter if you get the burrow or the Roach speed, either one will deter the Reapers for good after that. By then though, the Terran will have moved on to Marauders or whatnot.
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On August 23 2010 11:39 Fortress wrote:
That is also a possibility, but you are just too vulnerable before Lair without any Roaches. If you get Roaches, it doesn't matter if you get the burrow or the Roach speed, either one will deter the Reapers for good after that. By then though, the Terran will have moved on to Marauders or whatnot.
only NEED roaches if you are slow to lair or you are unable to micro your lings properly. and are unwilling to make spines
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On August 23 2010 11:47 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:39 Fortress wrote:
That is also a possibility, but you are just too vulnerable before Lair without any Roaches. If you get Roaches, it doesn't matter if you get the burrow or the Roach speed, either one will deter the Reapers for good after that. By then though, the Terran will have moved on to Marauders or whatnot. only NEED roaches if you are slow to lair or you are unable to micro your lings properly. and are unwilling to make spines
Have any replays of this burrow stuff you are talking about. Seems like you are just theory crafting, spines get raped by reapers btw once the numbers start getting larger.
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On August 23 2010 11:50 WCH wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:47 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 11:39 Fortress wrote:
That is also a possibility, but you are just too vulnerable before Lair without any Roaches. If you get Roaches, it doesn't matter if you get the burrow or the Roach speed, either one will deter the Reapers for good after that. By then though, the Terran will have moved on to Marauders or whatnot. only NEED roaches if you are slow to lair or you are unable to micro your lings properly. and are unwilling to make spines Have any replays of this burrow stuff you are talking about. Seems like you are just theory crafting, spines get raped by reapers btw once the numbers start getting larger.
you use spines early on and then speedlings until the lair finishes, i don't use burrow vs reapers, someone else does, but fortress has consistantly stated that roaches are mandatory under any circumstance, and that is wrong. so i was calling him on it. WCH i can stop the reapers, but you pretty much lose the macro game overall unless the terran slips up or you get super lucky w/ your lings. i can't WIN a game that starts with a ton of reaps but i can get past the reap stage.
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On August 23 2010 11:56 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:50 WCH wrote:On August 23 2010 11:47 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 11:39 Fortress wrote:
That is also a possibility, but you are just too vulnerable before Lair without any Roaches. If you get Roaches, it doesn't matter if you get the burrow or the Roach speed, either one will deter the Reapers for good after that. By then though, the Terran will have moved on to Marauders or whatnot. only NEED roaches if you are slow to lair or you are unable to micro your lings properly. and are unwilling to make spines Have any replays of this burrow stuff you are talking about. Seems like you are just theory crafting, spines get raped by reapers btw once the numbers start getting larger. you use spines early on and then speedlings until the lair finishes, i don't use burrow vs reapers, someone else does, but fortress has consistantly stated that roaches are mandatory under any circumstance, and that is wrong. so i was calling him on it. WCH i can stop the reapers, but you pretty much lose the macro game overall unless the terran slips up or you get super lucky w/ your lings. i can't WIN a game that starts with a ton of reaps but i can get past the reap stage.
Exactly same problem I have, I can stop them but then you lose on the macro game....
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On August 23 2010 11:59 WCH wrote:
Exactly same problem I have, I can stop them but then you lose on the macro game....
I think i get further than most people using infestors since they are so cost effective and you can hold off a couple pushes after but they can transition to marine mech easily, but i feel like right out of reapers you need to have infestors to defend and then double expand to even have a shot at coming back, but thats way to difficult to do on most maps. i won one game on Metal because i was able to double expand afterwards, but haven't won since. I'm thinking instead of going for the recovery from the attack get infestors and maybe baneling or muta and harrass and take down his expo and economy a bit, infestors can stall with lings vs any push against you while you try to 2 base muta (all drones on gas at the expo) and harrass. haven't been too successful but It FEELS like it can work when you are doing it. i'm not very good with mutas though. It just seems like it takes too many larva to stop reapers, maybe more spines? or banelings. banelings take minimal damage from reapers and once they get lair they can catch reapers on creep.
it kind of makes me sad, because i had just developed a build that won me almost all of my ZvT vs standard mech or bio.
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Has anyone experimented with speedlings -> +1 carapace?
Normally lings die in 2 reaper shots, [(4+5)x2=18] as lings have 35 life. But having the plus 1 carapace reduces the damage to [(4+4)x2=16], which means 3 shots a kill.
Just an idea, haven't tried it out. I'd assume the drawback is that you're behind on getting out mutalisks, but it seems like it would change the outcome of most battles as reapers would end up overkilling. Seems like it'd help with surviving out till mid-game.
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you cant outmicor speedlings on creep with reapers. period.
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On August 23 2010 10:14 threehundred wrote:
.... it's like giving a gun to a 12 year old vs a trained swordsman. swordsman will probably die in a head on fight.
Shooting guns is actually hard in the sense that it is difficult to get stops right the heck now. TBH, unless the kid had been shooting for awhile (and even if he has) it probably ends with both of them dead.
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not morrow's opening, these sorts of reaper openings (and variations thereof) are common on the Korean server. also lol at another build attributed to lzgamer, come on.
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Best way so far has been fast exping as usual with speedlings/roaches and 2-4 queens with 1 spinecrawler in either mainbase or at the natural. And yes it's really doable. I dont think there is any other viable / better way to do it. Some games you may get away with fast teching on 1 base, but often they will rip you apart if you dont have 2 base.
And the first and second wave of attacks can often enough be fended of with the 2-4 queens and help of speedlings, and for the third/fourth time you have roaches/lings and if you've been able to pick of a few of the reapers the zerglings will make quick work of the marauders with support from roaches when the bio attack finally comes. And from there on you can go onto rape his base with the mutas you've morphed in.
This is the way i've been doing it, and haven't lost to mass reapers/reapers opening in a really long time, I dont know the build order exactly, but here are som replays for those who wanna check it out or just analyze a bit or use for reference
[url blocked]
[url blocked]
btw sry for bad english
EDIT:my opponents are 850-870 pointers in daimond, so they are no random silver dudes or whatever
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On August 23 2010 12:05 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 11:59 WCH wrote:
Exactly same problem I have, I can stop them but then you lose on the macro game.... I think i get further than most people using infestors since they are so cost effective and you can hold off a couple pushes after but they can transition to marine mech easily, but i feel like right out of reapers you need to have infestors to defend and then double expand to even have a shot at coming back, but thats way to difficult to do on most maps. i won one game on Metal because i was able to double expand afterwards, but haven't won since. I'm thinking instead of going for the recovery from the attack get infestors and maybe baneling or muta and harrass and take down his expo and economy a bit, infestors can stall with lings vs any push against you while you try to 2 base muta (all drones on gas at the expo) and harrass. haven't been too successful but It FEELS like it can work when you are doing it. i'm not very good with mutas though. It just seems like it takes too many larva to stop reapers, maybe more spines? or banelings. banelings take minimal damage from reapers and once they get lair they can catch reapers on creep. it kind of makes me sad, because i had just developed a build that won me almost all of my ZvT vs standard mech or bio.
Same I thought I pretty much had ZvT to like a 60%-70% winning rate and then this pops up. Also, I think it is very hard to go mutas after going roaches to defend the initial reaper abuse. I just feel so behind.
On August 23 2010 12:14 roofs wrote:
Has anyone experimented with speedlings -> +1 carapace?
Normally lings die in 2 reaper shots, [(4+5)x2=18] as lings have 35 life. But having the plus 1 carapace reduces the damage to [(4+4)x2=16], which means 3 shots a kill.
Just an idea, haven't tried it out. I'd assume the drawback is that you're behind on getting out mutalisks, but it seems like it would change the outcome of most battles as reapers would end up overkilling. Seems like it'd help with surviving out till mid-game.
Interesting idea, will tell my friend to do the reaper build to me couple more times and I will see If i can squeeze in the +1 carapace and see if it will make a difference.
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On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.)
This seems really dubious. Your fast teching to lair if ii'm not mistaken as well as stockpiling gas to get 1-2 infestors out with mp upgrades. That's... a fair bit of gas. that's 100 (lair) + 100 (infestor pit) + 150 (research) + 150 (per infestor). That's 500 gas right there. According to Liquipedia (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources) It takes 3 drones to gather 114 gas per game minute. So i'm assuming your getting both gases asap. But that's 8 drones off minerals right there. And if your fending off with lings and spines, how are you gonna be able to drone up enough as well as afford tech/overlord costs? Especially with the delayed queen too. I'm of the mind that if the T just happens to scan you and sees no queen/early lair he'll just do a push of some sort with all the raxes already building.
If you can post a replay of this BO, or just post the actual BO, i'll be less skeptical.
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i'm a 600 diamond zerg the only success i have been having is which my practice partner i go spine crawler Queen save all gas for muta so with 3 spines and about 4 queens i'm able to defend and transfuse tilli get mutas out it dosen't work everytime because the draw back is your army is imobile but i feel like this is a start and bypasses the roach>maurader trouble everyone is having
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On August 23 2010 12:56 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.) This seems really dubious. Your fast teching to lair if ii'm not mistaken as well as stockpiling gas to get 1-2 infestors out with mp upgrades. That's... a fair bit of gas. that's 100 (lair) + 100 (infestor pit) + 150 (research) + 150 (per infestor). That's 500 gas right there. According to Liquipedia (http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Resources) It takes 3 drones to gather 114 gas per game minute. So i'm assuming your getting both gases asap. But that's 8 drones off minerals right there. And if your fending off with lings and spines, how are you gonna be able to drone up enough as well as afford tech/overlord costs? Especially with the delayed queen too. I'm of the mind that if the T just happens to scan you and sees no queen/early lair he'll just do a push of some sort with all the raxes already building. If you can post a replay of this BO, or just post the actual BO, i'll be less skeptical.
I'm still refining it, the old BO that i used vs mech (that also got infestors out at a similiar time (slightly slower than the 1 base) was 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, lair when pool finished, and gas when lair starts, then 1 crawler at nat + 4 lings , taking towers if not steppes. i put 1 ling outside of the enemy base so i could see a move out and respond. pretty much works that way vs mech. i'm using a modified version where i go 13 gas 14 pool lair after pool then gas when lair goes up. and 6 zerglings when lair is going up. so far everything is lining up except the infestor pit. which comes about 5-8 seconds too late.
i'm starting to think to 14 hatch 14 gas 13 pool, but put the hatch in my main (a bit closer to the cliff, to act as a creep tumor + queen pretty much) but i haven't tried this, it'd work in theory (and also allow a queen to come up early too)
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Since we're discussing: Does a good speedling-baneling bust beat this? (As in, 5:30-5:45 game time) I've had plenty of terrans rush reapers against me, and they never get the chance to hit 5 rax.
Not that it matters, but I'm a 500 Zerg. In the higher ranks, it might be different.
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On August 23 2010 10:16 PrinceXizor wrote:
But yeah it's beatable but as soon as 50% terrans go for 2 reapers into mech and 50% go 2 reapers into more reapers. i don't know what can be done, as it'll become too difficult to deal with both strategies in the meta.
I agree, a couple of reapers don't delay Terran builds by very much at all, but will pose a huge dilemma to the opponent.
As a Terran, this is certainly the week to buzz a Zerg with a couple of reapers before you transition to your normal build. Most will probably overreact and stunt their own economy while you send your reapers back to the watch tower to chill out, talk about Morrow, and chuckle.
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The worst part about reapers is that they're damn near invincible in the hands of a good player. Because of their range and speed, you quite literally can not kill a reaper unless the terran screws up. When you have to rely on your opponent mis-microing in order to beat his build, something is really really wrong. This is only going to get worse as players reaper control improves over time.
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Why no spine crawlers? When I see reaper or helion harass I usually make 2 spine crawlers and holds all the time. Of course, I'm low level diamond, so it's quite debatable whether it's the way to go or not.
Oh, and before someone say that spines get raped by mass reapers, it's just a matter of where you place them. And that is behind the hatchery. If they get in to get the kill on the spine you block retreat with speedlings.
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If you put spines behind the hatchery, the hatchery itself is snipeable.
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On August 23 2010 17:44 dogabutila wrote:
If you put spines behind the hatchery, the hatchery itself is snipeable.
I think he intended to move them to a more useful position after building them behind the hatchery.
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On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? also sorry for calling it the Morrow opening; i just have yet to see anyone have real legitimate success with it. When morrow used it, it wasnt an allin; it had a strong transition to midgame.
demuslim used it against idra and dimaga in the earlier stages of IEM before morrow...
it worked a couple of times.
why don't you call the marine/tank push the 'morrow build' too? 
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Get infestors to punish the lack of tanks. They are more efficient than banelings. Anything with stim and no medivacs is gonna be meat for fungal growth.
+ Show Spoiler +Original post was far too long.
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I just extracted the build order and posted it here. There is also a YABOT file to train it on Xel.
+ Show Spoiler +I think the bo can be slowed a bit down if you manage to steal the gas (this gives you 15 to 20 additionally seconds, but can be countered with an unfinished ref.) The first Reaper leaves the Rax at 3:48 and the first attack starts around 7:00. This could leave room for cheesing if the Terran scout at 12 does not get to see something, but this is rare. I guess the only way to adjust pressure is to use the creep tumors well and make a transition after Roaches to Banelings and Mutas. But this is quite gas intense and relies on your good micro. It may be possible that I add some AI to this opening so you can train against it with insane AI.
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On August 23 2010 19:02 Crymoreplz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 17:44 dogabutila wrote:
If you put spines behind the hatchery, the hatchery itself is snipeable. I think he intended to move them to a more useful position after building them behind the hatchery.
Like I said, if you put spines behind the hatch it is snipeable and if you put it too far out then the mass reapers can kill it while taking only like 1 reaper lost.
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Let us list what is needed to defend this build:
-an expansion must be put down or it's 2 base Terran vs 1base Zerg.
-speedlings will not defend you if they don't lose reapers; therefore lings stall you until roach speed or mutas which requires lair.
-so we need to concoct a build that gives u speedlings, roaches, an expansion, and fast lair. What's a way to do this?
Let's not care about drone count rite now say you could 100 percent bul units and tech. How would u approach this problem?
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I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire.
Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521
Edit:
Just to extrapolate some...
1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder.
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On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder.
See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings.
Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo.
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On August 24 2010 01:53 Arcticc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder. See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings. Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo.
no way you can defend, get lair, spire, baneling nest, and drones off one base.
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On August 24 2010 02:10 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 01:53 Arcticc wrote:On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder. See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings. Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo. no way you can defend, get lair, spire, baneling nest, and drones off one base.
You can absolutely defend, get lair, spire, roach warren and drones off one base.
I've never really bothered with a switch to banes, because against the reaper build, mutas generally just win the game outright.
Roaches on creep can deal with the reapers. 3 of them with your queen will keep you safe until muta. Once the muta are out, just fly to his base and win. The reaper investment is so steep that unless he figures out what you're doing, he won't have any anti-air at all... And even if he does figure it out, he's most likely to build marines while throwing down an ebay, and your muta will slaughter 5-7 marines easily.
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On August 24 2010 02:18 MrBitter wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2010 02:10 gods_basement wrote:On August 24 2010 01:53 Arcticc wrote:On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder. See, I like this idea because it pushes the T to switch tech to marauders. And even if he does see your spire he'll make marines. With all those tech labs it should give you time to get that banelings nest down and using your left over speedlings for the banelings. Just oversaturate your main and expand when you get that map control. Using the extra drones to quickly saturate the expo. no way you can defend, get lair, spire, baneling nest, and drones off one base. You can absolutely defend, get lair, spire, roach warren and drones off one base. I've never really bothered with a switch to banes, because against the reaper build, mutas generally just win the game outright. Roaches on creep can deal with the reapers. 3 of them with your queen will keep you safe until muta. Once the muta are out, just fly to his base and win. The reaper investment is so steep that unless he figures out what you're doing, he won't have any anti-air at all... And even if he does figure it out, he's most likely to build marines while throwing down an ebay, and your muta will slaughter 5-7 marines easily.
I was just suggesting baneling nest down the road to deal with the marine reaction to the mutas, in case it goes that long. I don't understand this build is indefensible. How is going expansion/roaches more defensible? This build takes the expo out of the equation making the harass confined and easier to deal with. (although that depends a lot on the map)
Edit: Also, I was suggesting that baneling nest be built after putting up an expo when the mutas come out.
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On August 24 2010 01:35 MrBitter wrote:I've been running 1 base muta vT, and its been beating mass reaper play consistently. The trick, in my opinion, is to get 3 roaches, and to hide the spire. Here's some replays against the reaper build. I'm currently 900 Diamond. Not sure how good these guys I've been getting paired against are, though. http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2504http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2479http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2403http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/2521Edit: Just to extrapolate some... 1 basing against mass reaper isn't as bad as people want to think. You get the units that you need to defend, and as soon as mutas pop, you get immediate map control. If T figures out what you're doing, sure he can switch tech, or turret up, and then you're disadvantaged, but even if he does this, its immediately alleviating the pressure, and muta/roach is excellent against reaper/marauder.
3 roaches are not enough to defend 10-15 reapers with a terran that can micro.
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even if the figure out a way to stop the mass reaper openings were still gonna have the general issue of zergs not being able to scout terrans in the early game on top of terrans having tons of viable strategies. faking, bluffing and if u wanna call it cheesing then sure but its relly just the strongest way to play tvz.
i hope they make the races more equal so they both can expand or go early harass instead of zerg only being able to expo while terran only being able to harass. sure terran can have fast expo builds but if zerg scouts that then he can counter it so easy by massing drones and terran will be so far behind.
midgame and lategame tvz should be pretty fine but its just the early game thats always this coinflip because we see idra sac a lord to scout and he see my fake reaper build so u can call that to scout but then its just fake and he dies. so in theory he scouts it perfectly and responds to it perfectly but zerg can never fully know what terran is doing and i think thats a really big issue. there are so many hard counters (sorry day9) and ways to play early game that it comes down quite a bit to luck or mindgames if u wanna call it that
so ye nerfing reaper would probably move in the right direction but blizzard needs to dig alot deeper than that if they truly want a solid tvz early game in theory
this all has obviously been talked about just enough and right now im just not gonna discuss anymore because most of us are on the same page and agreeing on the issue and now its just up to blizzard to fix it
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Well said from the man himself, Morrow. Grats again and great play all IEM!
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msv's been doing this since early beta. the z has to basically turtle until they have enough stuff to move out with otherwise they will get backdoored and/or flanked.
In every game msv played vs idra in beta he beat him in the same fashion because idra power drones too much. I'd say the build was more a counter to idra's playstyle than zerg itself.
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Except for the first two games, Idra seemed to play really badly. I think he was tilting. Morrow on the other hand, was extremely solid. I don't think most people can control reapers like that while microing perfectly, etc, etc. This is a build for the pros.
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I'm pretty positive that banelings are the proper response to mass reapers. I've been amazed at the complete lack of any mention of banelings whenever this 5-rax reaper nonsense is discussed. I've played a few Terran since the IEM that all go for mass-reaper openings and they all lose to well-positioned banelings... I'm only platinum though, so it's not like I'm playing against any MorroWs.
Banelings are not classified as light, so they take 4 shots from a reaper without dying. Even if they are kited and killed, the splash has a pretty good chance of hitting at least a few. If you have an opportunity to position them well, you can run the reapers into the banelings with speedlings, or vice versa.
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^^ no, reapers own banelings
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i dont see any real counter to this build, sure you might be able to just barely survive it but then its gg after that. The only 2 units you can get are roaches and/or lings by the time the reapers attack, and ive tried spines, speedlings, queens, roaches, and combinations of them and reapers just roll over all of them. seems like this build has actually broken the matchup.
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The counter is really out microing with lings or being really shifty with roaches but I doubt that its possible for equal skilled zerg players to use roaches to win.
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This build is seriously ridiculous against Zerg one some maps. For instance Xel Naga caverns. Oh, he´s popped up a few spines in the front, just going back Trolololo. Oh, hes gotten some spines there too! I guess ill just blast em with my nades in 2 seconds!
Srsly, this BO is really overpowered becouse When you finally start building a spire he can just blow it in 3 seconds -.-
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Having huge trouble with this right here , just lost 3 games in a row against this BO... 
Reapers are actually quite decent to defend with lings , the problem is you just do throw so much stuff against the reapers that u will fall behind in eco ...
After Reapers is a Huge problem to me !! ( i mostly get my expansion up)
Option 1 ... U get Mutas early enough ... he will just turret slighty and put some marines on while he is already sitting on 2 bases .. ur like on 1- 1,5 bases ... and then he Pushes with Marines/marauder .... Banelings wont help that much cuz ur behind in eco....
Option 2 u cant get mutas early enough and had to build to much roaches to defend against reapers , that he will just 1A Push with marauders
This all depends on how well he can micro the reapers ... if he controls them godlike ... ur just waay behind ... <- this is what i call imba
Anyone got a good solution? 1-2 spines at critical spots help alot  but wont stop that much
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remove the reapers form game,since they are wortless mid/late game
problem fixed
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On August 25 2010 00:23 ULtraLT wrote:
remove the reapers form game,since they are wortless mid/late game
problem fixed
You guys make think this sounds trollish but this is not a bad idea.
The only problem is that 2 gate inbase proxies are ridiculously hard to deal with without reapers, but 2 gates are OP anyways period. Chronoboost has some flaws in that aspect.
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it would probably make more sense to remove reaper speed as opposed to reapers alltogethe or just require something like ghost academy to research reaper speed. I've actually decided to stop playing sc2 until either a counter is found to this build or blizzard fixes the rediculous balance issues.
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Reapers aren't the issue , they aren't imba by any means , just simply a good starting unit.
The problem lies with zerg , the reaper opening won't work against ANY other Race due to the T1 units the other 2 Races have (Rines/Marauders/Stalkers) fair relatively well against reapers due to range.
Then take a look at what T1 units Zerg has with decent range ... absolutely nothing.
Hence there is no Hard counter , or even soft counter for the Reaper Opening, even at best if you micro perfectly you are just able to even out , which ends in you surviving and not losing econ , and him getting a "free" expansion and transitioning perfectly into a BioMech Mid/Late game, Which IMO , favours Terran more.
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To counter this 5 rax reaper speedling is not the answer. Roach's are they work wonderful against it as long as you get them early enough :D
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I predict a roach buff taking their attack from 3 range to 4 range. once that happens reapers wont be able to kite roaches and do any damage. whatever the solution it should be a zerg buff because mass reapers is very balanced vs. T or P.
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On August 25 2010 04:48 blade55555 wrote:
To counter this 5 rax reaper speedling is not the answer. Roach's are they work wonderful against it as long as you get them early enough :D
No way roach is the answer simple cos Reaper outranges them and outmoves them , unless the terran makes a mistake , roaches shouldn't even hit them.
No doubt zerg needs a buff , zerg needs a T1 decent ranged unit , like MM/Stalker.
Prolly Reduce Roaches DPS but give it a better range or whatever.
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Rethinking about this strategy, it sounds like standard zerg builds like 14 pool (or later pool) is no longer viable against Terran. Is it possible that something more like a 10 pool into fast roaches for defense, or even something like 8-10 pool early lings or banelings offense to delay the terran might be viable against this build, or even double gas steal?
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On August 23 2010 09:59 Vexx wrote:*derail* + Show Spoiler +
I was undecided between Z and T at diamond but after a 45 minute TvT tank+viking fest, I was turned off the idea of playing terran almost completely. Then I watched IEM yesterday and I could not be any more disgusted by the race.
Between "skillful" marauder "kiting" (Good job finding the s button!), abusive reaper play with all the cliffs and even more abusive hellion play, I could not play one more game as terran. It is my personal belief that abuse of game mechanics has nothing to do with skill (I know I'm in the minority.. I've had this argument in every game I've ever played).
Really, farthest/hardest hitting ground unit, fastest hardest hitting most mobile harass units, farthest hitting air to air units, easiest tech line and scan on demand... bleh. */derail*
I'm of the opinion that "mass reaper" builds into hellions will get shit on by roach builds that switch to speedlings once the T goes marauders. The reason being that the reapers can be abusive against roaches when they are kiting them, but they can try to kite at their own risk when the roaches are in T's base.
slight OT;p
+ Show Spoiler +I had the exact same feelings, switched to zerg which is seriously harder- but it feels damn good
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Calling this the MorroW build is kinda shallow.
Mutas does ok, but not really because a quick GA into 5 ghosts shuts it down
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what is the exact reaper build?
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On August 25 2010 07:57 Disastorm wrote:
what is the exact reaper build?
7 Barracks all with Tech Labs, mass reapers and then into marauders. I don't know the exact build x.x
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12 rax reaper, followed up by raxxes with techlab when you can
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So could you theoretically force terran to not go 12 rax reaper by either double gas steal or something like an 8 or 9 pool with 6 zerglings or is that not enough to falter the imba race?
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if u go 8 or 9 pool , the reaper build already served it's purpose.
The build is never to outright kill the zerg , but in fact to give terran the advantage going into midgame every single time.
The reaper build doesnt really require the terran to sac his early game econ in any way , but till now there isn't a build that doesn't
A) Require the zerg to sacrifice quite heavily on econ.
B) Force zerg into a one base play throughout the early game.
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On August 23 2010 17:30 Lighioana wrote:
Why no spine crawlers? When I see reaper or helion harass I usually make 2 spine crawlers and holds all the time. Of course, I'm low level diamond, so it's quite debatable whether it's the way to go or not.
Oh, and before someone say that spines get raped by mass reapers, it's just a matter of where you place them. And that is behind the hatchery. If they get in to get the kill on the spine you block retreat with speedlings.
8 or 9 reapers will just demo charge it to death in a near instant, and if you place them obscurely he can just aim something else
On August 25 2010 04:47 john0507 wrote:
Reapers aren't the issue , they aren't imba by any means , just simply a good starting unit.
The problem lies with zerg , the reaper opening won't work against ANY other Race due to the T1 units the other 2 Races have (Rines/Marauders/Stalkers) fair relatively well against reapers due to range.
Then take a look at what T1 units Zerg has with decent range ... absolutely nothing.
Hence there is no Hard counter , or even soft counter for the Reaper Opening, even at best if you micro perfectly you are just able to even out , which ends in you surviving and not losing econ , and him getting a "free" expansion and transitioning perfectly into a BioMech Mid/Late game, Which IMO , favours Terran more.
6rax 6 refinery reaper cheese a protoss, unless theyr some sort of god and get a core up while your harassing, you win
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I respect morrow for winning this tournament for sure, But look at the facts...
Mass Tier1 from one base is way to easy to win vs any builds for zerg really.
Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg?
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I beat this twice yesterday with 5 roach rush. I'm by no means great, but I felt I was able to handle it easily. The transition to marauders happens just as my speedlings start arriving at his base too, and then I'm in his base, with 2 hatcheries rallied just pumping out speedlings until the GG comes.
I think a viable counter would have been for in those 2 games, for the people I was playing against to instead of confronting my roaches with reapers, send them to my base and just ruin my eco and try and bunker up around command centre, a base race as it were. But he had only two / three by the time my roaches got there, was easy pickings.
This would be even more effective if reapers become 2 supply (which doesn't seem so unreasonable to me at least), because you take out the supply depot at his ramp first and instantly supply block him. I'm not a pro, but I'm just saying for me, at my level, it worked. At higher levels it might be difficult keeping them alive vs good reaper micro, but 5 roaches is scary for the terran when he has just a few reapers, and an extra 10 speedlings arrive within 10 - 15s which makes it 10x easier to close them down and then go to work on the tech labs (my preferred targets atm to stop reapers / marauders popping ASAP, but maybe more effective to go straight for the workers?).
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I have beat some 1k point terrans who are trying to mimic this. It still feels so much harder for me, and I know I probably would've lost if opponents had any faking in them. It requires you to morph almost only lings if he has more than 1rax reaper, and takes all scouting possibilities out. If instead of 1-3-5rax reaper he chooses to switch after 2rax to banshees, you're screwed. I think idra had the best possible reaction to this in IEM - ~21hat after speed on the way, warren ready when lair up, instant speed on roaches while scouting with overseer. This can counter some of the followups, but you'll still lose against some. It's still razorthin if you can even beat banshee followup with this since you'll need to instantly start +2queens and new overseer to have any chance.
Also I don't think terrans understand how idioticly thin the larva decisions can be early. It seriously is so bad that @ 10ling 20drone your decision to make +2drone instead of +4lings can lose you the game, as it can other way around. There's numerous timings for terran to win this game early on, but he's never absolutely set to lose if he fails the harrass. That's what I kinda hate in playing zvt the most - zerg can't afford to lose any big fights pre-ultras. If terran microes well and gets some good tank shots to banes, and ends up losing very few marines, he can almost always just stim run to your base and destroy everything. But if zerg destroys everything, sure he gets advantage, but he can never still touch even T's nat due to awesome clifftanks. There are so many things I hate about the matchup, but I know if terrans' capabilities were reduced a little bit it'd give so much extra room for opposing races. I know they aren't doing this, but let's assume they removed cloak research from banshees. This would change tvp and tvz TONS for right direction. It's something you can't scout, but you'll lose against if you didn't go ~fast lair/robo. I for one would like a chance to play zvt without fast lair, fast roach, fast spling, fast overseer, fast spire for once. There's just no resources to make those damn drones when it seems you have to get ready for everything at once.
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On August 25 2010 17:52 Dreaming11 wrote:
I beat this twice yesterday with 5 roach rush. I'm by no means great, but I felt I was able to handle it easily. The transition to marauders happens just as my speedlings start arriving at his base too, and then I'm in his base, with 2 hatcheries rallied just pumping out speedlings until the GG comes.
I think a viable counter would have been for in those 2 games, for the people I was playing against to instead of confronting my roaches with reapers, send them to my base and just ruin my eco and try and bunker up around command centre, a base race as it were. But he had only two / three by the time my roaches got there, was easy pickings.
This would be even more effective if reapers become 2 supply (which doesn't seem so unreasonable to me at least), because you take out the supply depot at his ramp first and instantly supply block him. I'm not a pro, but I'm just saying for me, at my level, it worked. At higher levels it might be difficult keeping them alive vs good reaper micro, but 5 roaches is scary for the terran when he has just a few reapers, and an extra 10 speedlings arrive within 10 - 15s which makes it 10x easier to close them down and then go to work on the tech labs (my preferred targets atm to stop reapers / marauders popping ASAP, but maybe more effective to go straight for the workers?).
Replay of it pls , cos there is no way a decent terran ...
a) Fail to micro EASILY against roaches with no speed upgrade and even out of creep.
b) Lets u have 2 hatcheries peacefully.
And i do seriously wonder with u doing 5 roach rush which eats into your supposed econ , AND get lings AND the speed upgrade , how many reapers should a (decent) terran have by then.
If u have a replay showing this works well against a decent terran , then grats we have found our counter.
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On August 25 2010 20:12 Ouga wrote:
I have beat some 1k point terrans who are trying to mimic this. It still feels so much harder for me, and I know I probably would've lost if opponents had any faking in them. It requires you to morph almost only lings if he has more than 1rax reaper, and takes all scouting possibilities out. If instead of 1-3-5rax reaper he chooses to switch after 2rax to banshees, you're screwed. I think idra had the best possible reaction to this in IEM - ~21hat after speed on the way, warren ready when lair up, instant speed on roaches while scouting with overseer. This can counter some of the followups, but you'll still lose against some. It's still razorthin if you can even beat banshee followup with this since you'll need to instantly start +2queens and new overseer to have any chance.
Also I don't think terrans understand how idioticly thin the larva decisions can be early. It seriously is so bad that @ 10ling 20drone your decision to make +2drone instead of +4lings can lose you the game, as it can other way around. There's numerous timings for terran to win this game early on, but he's never absolutely set to lose if he fails the harrass. That's what I kinda hate in playing zvt the most - zerg can't afford to lose any big fights pre-ultras. If terran microes well and gets some good tank shots to banes, and ends up losing very few marines, he can almost always just stim run to your base and destroy everything. But if zerg destroys everything, sure he gets advantage, but he can never still touch even T's nat due to awesome clifftanks. There are so many things I hate about the matchup, but I know if terrans' capabilities were reduced a little bit it'd give so much extra room for opposing races. I know they aren't doing this, but let's assume they removed cloak research from banshees. This would change tvp and tvz TONS for right direction. It's something you can't scout, but you'll lose against if you didn't go ~fast lair/robo. I for one would like a chance to play zvt without fast lair, fast roach, fast spling, fast overseer, fast spire for once. There's just no resources to make those damn drones when it seems you have to get ready for everything at once.
This guy gets it. I believe Idra did the best he could've against this build as well. kudos to him he did come back and pull off a win. If u actually look at the stats , after the reaper opening , regardless of whether it succeeded , Morrow always came out ahead econ wise.
And if the terran decides to mess with your head (like IEM final game 4) , you're screwed.
Terran already had so many possible openings , and now there is this reaper opening that if zerg doesnt respond perfectly you're dead , if u do respond perfectly , u survive but terran still comes out with the econ advantage going into mid game , now that is really broken.
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On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote:
I respect morrow for winning this tournament for sure, But look at the facts...
Mass Tier1 from one base is way to easy to win vs any builds for zerg really.
Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg?
On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote:
But look at the facts...
...Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg?
On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote:
...facts...
...Remove Mules...
Are you even a little bit serious?
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Solution: Early Lair without Queen. Spread overlord on critical area and start puking creep (dont need any upgrades for that!!!). Get Speedlings during lair morphing and chase reapers on creep, fall back off creep.
Before he get too much reapers your lair will finish (since its super early) and the insta-boost from creep with prevent him from making insane amount of dommage since he wont risk speedlings surrounds
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Except you won't have speedlings since you went Lair first and speed takes forever to research; actually you'll have likely lost by then due to not having a queen to fend off the first 2 reapers, and no larva to econ.
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Ive been seeing lots of reaper play lately myself, however most players (up to 800diamond) that ive played simply CANNOT pull it off - I end up easily defending the initial couple of reapers with slings queen, put up a few spines on key positions whilst teching to muta and rocking them. Guess they are not aggressive enough, but its funny
Vs decent players such as morrow i dont know what you can do.. But I've never played at such a high level anyhow
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actually all these can be solved just by Nerf-ing reaper range to 4 and bumping roach range to 4, shouldnt have too much effect on the overall game
but makes roaches way better against reapers
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On August 25 2010 17:28 Marke wrote:
I respect morrow for winning this tournament for sure, But look at the facts...
Mass Tier1 from one base is way to easy to win vs any builds for zerg really.
Remove Mules and Reaper Siege dmg?
So Flash beating Jaedong with pure MM is BW imba? O_o
EDIT: There's nothing wrong with winning with mass T1 imo, but that should and does require much more skill to pull off than winning with higher tech.
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Game alrdy seems thin without removing reapers or other units. I think the terran race is how all 3 should have been, lots of options all the way up the tree instead of such a limited pool of options.
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EPT
