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This is not a Terran whine thread. This is not a place for you to derail us into a Terran whine thread. I am a Terran player, and I just want to see others' strategic analysis and possible improvements or weaknesses of this build.
Sorry for calling it the Morrow opening. i should have said "morrow's opening at IEM."
So anyone who watched IEM yesterday saw probably the most abusive TvZ opening ever: 5 rax reaper. The build allowed a contain, an economy harass, AND an early-ish expansion. Entering the midgame 2base vs 2base is a pretty insurmountable lead. The first units that can handle reapers effectively are mutalisks. While speed roaches work, on maps like blistering sands, the "sweet spot" is just so amazingly powerful, and it does not effectively "shut down" the reapers.
The reason for this thread is to discuss possible weaknesses and timings that this build has. It is my personal belief that when Idra beat Morrow, it was because of Morrow making a mistake and giving up his reapers too soon, not because of any inherent timing window of this build. However, perhaps a better Zerg can tell me otherwise.
To be fair, on blistering sands, Idra's mechanics started slipping, and maybe that lost him the game.
I think that this build is quite analogous to 2 hatch muta, except that 2hatch muta requires much more work and precision for the rush to erode away the macro sacrifices.
A list of my questions follow: Is there a counter to this build? If a player effectively defends, do i enter the midgame behind? How soon after lair tech do i have to begin pumping marine/maurader, and which do i get? Is there any style of play that can go toe-to-toe with this build? Is there something in my analysis that i'm missing?
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Mass muta is really strong, and when doing reaper openings (I usually do 3 rax, more economic, feels ALOT less dependant on doing damage, earlier expo) one base muta tends to give me problems. Not because of them hitting me with no turrets up or something like that, but more that I'm forced to build loads of turrets while getting marine/tank/medivac up.
Feels like you really can't move out and there are always spots for good Zs to pick out with mutas. When you actually do move out a single error costs you the game because of banelings.
5 rax reaper might just outright win versus one base muta, not sure. Probably is hard to defend while teching so fast.
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It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong.
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hey the last game was pretty sweet.
+ Show Spoiler +it was morrow vs idra on steppes
2rax marauder
reactor'ed hellions while HIDING UNITS
then push with scvs/hellions/marauders
caught idra off guard (well technically he went for an FE with a roach warren/baneling nest *BUT morrow abused a timing window. excellent ace in the hole there morrow!
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+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone.
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On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong.
did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong
lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper
On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone.
Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread?
also sorry for calling it the Morrow opening; i just have yet to see anyone have real legitimate success with it. When morrow used it, it wasnt an allin; it had a strong transition to midgame.
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+ Show Spoiler +yeah but i think morrow opening 5rax reapers in the three previous games prior threw idra just *enough. i think the clutch moment tbh was when NONE of the marauders popped out during the time the lone early overlord was scouting. i think morrow would have cancelled the marauders just in-case anyway, but miraculously, none of them popped during the overlords sacrifice.
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On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong.
HD and Painuser casted a few videos of LZgamer using the strat for the day9 countdown party. It must of been a pretty new strat at the time because machine, sheth (i think), and other obs didn't know a good counter to it.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? ---- i agree, i watched almost all of morrow's games via replay for the iem because im a fanboy/terran/nerd. he did marine/tanks against dimaga heh.
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Not sure, but Im pretty sure Lzgamer coined this build order over a month ago. Really strong opening tho
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i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject.
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Going Roaches to counter Reapers is asking to get marauder stomped. because not only do Roaches not deal with Reapers but they also delay the Muta, which is what will finally deal with reapers and get you back in the fight.
It seems counter intuitive but your better off just going ling/queen for defense. Spread creep around and the Ling speed can keep Reapers from doing any serious damage. Your obviously going to eat some ling losses but thats irrelevant compared to what will happen if you go roach.
From a Terran perspective theres a time to stop building Reapers. Morrow was a little late in a few of his matches and it cost him a good chunk of the lead he had earned. Ultimately Idra fell back on Roaches and I don't feel that was the right choice either.
I'd list the Gas requirement for Mass reaper as a pretty big weakness.
I would like to try the numbers on +1 weapons timing push for it though
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I think they key to beating it is to focus on constant creep spread while getting quick Roaches and getting speed for Roaches as quickly as possible while still having enough roaches to defend. When you have a good creapspread try to hunt the reapers if they enter your creep but never leave you creep with the roaches. Having a group of speedlings that you try to surround with if he walks too far onto your creep is probably a good idea to. Or try to use zerglings above and below a cliff to trap him. This is more or less what Idra did in the games where he defended well against it.
I can't think of anything that would work better than that. I don't think it's possible to defend with only speedlings until you get mutas without losing your expansion if your opponent plays well. On some maps it will be really hard and if your opponent plays well there might not be much you can do. On other maps it's probably better not to open with reapers. You need to have many angles to attack from and cliffs you can run to for defense so you don't get surrounded by lings.
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On August 23 2010 09:50 brn4meplz wrote:
I'd list the Gas requirement for Mass reaper as a pretty big weakness.
I would like to try the numbers on +1 weapons timing push for it though
mauraders are super gas cheap, and +1 weapons doesnt really help reapers vs. anything zerg has.
when you say +1 weapons, do you mean for the zerg to +1 weapons their way into victory? roach hydra +1 attack is too late to exploit the expo timing, and +1 roaches are just as bad as +0 roaches vs maurader
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On August 23 2010 09:43 crazeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. HD and Painuser casted a few videos of LZgamer using the strat for the day9 countdown party. It must of been a pretty new strat at the time because machine, sheth (i think), and other obs didn't know a good counter to it.
No I'm pretty sure this was a 3 barracks reaper. He added extra barracks after his cc. Didn't he?
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On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject.
This works if you get infestor OR baneling speed OR do an amazing micro job and get mutas.
If you actually do everything properly the infestor comes out (with 75 energy because of pathogen glands) just as they hit about 8 reapers, and 2 infestors can kill a group of reapers without being hurt, OR 1 infestor and roaches can kill a ton of reapers. alternately 2 speed banelings + 1 for every 3 reapers can kill hordes of reapers, the key is crowd control, something that ONLY infestor and baneling really provide. ultralisks to an extent but only vs certain groups.
But note, doing this on 1 base = instant loss to mech play and typical mech pushes, doing this on 2 base = instant loss to reaper play and reaper harrass.
but yeah reapers are weak to the croud control units baneling and infestor. and both are good vs the typical bio followup.
EDIT And thinking about it if i posted a nerf to reapers i'd likely say they should have projectiles. that way they don't auto split their attacks to 2/Ling and kill groups of lings instantly when kiting, they would kill alot less per stop, meaning lings would at least not be so larva intensive to deal with, that or making the anti building weapon very short range so static defenses stand a chance.
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*derail*
+ Show Spoiler +
I was undecided between Z and T at diamond but after a 45 minute TvT tank+viking fest, I was turned off the idea of playing terran almost completely. Then I watched IEM yesterday and I could not be any more disgusted by the race.
Between "skillful" marauder "kiting" (Good job finding the s button!), abusive reaper play with all the cliffs and even more abusive hellion play, I could not play one more game as terran. It is my personal belief that abuse of game mechanics has nothing to do with skill (I know I'm in the minority.. I've had this argument in every game I've ever played).
Really, farthest/hardest hitting ground unit, fastest hardest hitting most mobile harass units, farthest hitting air to air units, easiest tech line and scan on demand... bleh. */derail*
I'm of the opinion that "mass reaper" builds into hellions will get shit on by roach builds that switch to speedlings once the T goes marauders. The reason being that the reapers can be abusive against roaches when they are kiting them, but they can try to kite at their own risk when the roaches are in T's base.
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On August 23 2010 09:56 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject. This works if you get infestor OR baneling speed OR do an amazing micro job and get mutas. If you actually do everything properly the infestor comes out (with 75 energy because of pathogen glands) just as they hit about 8 reapers, and 2 infestors can kill a group of reapers without being hurt, OR 1 infestor and roaches can kill a ton of reapers. alternately 2 speed banelings + 1 for every 3 reapers can kill hordes of reapers, the key is crowd control, something that ONLY infestor and baneling really provide. ultralisks to an extent but only vs certain groups. But note, doing this on 1 base = instant loss to mech play and typical mech pushes, doing this on 2 base = instant loss to reaper play and reaper harrass. but yeah reapers are weak to the croud control units baneling and infestor. and both are good vs the typical bio followup.
what? really? you can have upgraded infestors by the time i have 8 reapers? that cant be right. are reapers just that slow?
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On August 23 2010 09:56 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:48 threehundred wrote:
i think a lair first, before queen opening would be better. but the timings against other openers without a queen inject needs to be worked out ;<
the point is idra was researching roach speed as soon as lair was done, and i suppose getting to lair quicker would help out tremendously. but then again back to my point, you need to work out your 'safety measures' vs other terran openers without a queen/inject. This works if you get infestor OR baneling speed OR do an amazing micro job and get mutas. If you actually do everything properly the infestor comes out (with 75 energy because of pathogen glands) just as they hit about 8 reapers, and 2 infestors can kill a group of reapers without being hurt, OR 1 infestor and roaches can kill a ton of reapers. alternately 2 speed banelings + 1 for every 3 reapers can kill hordes of reapers, the key is crowd control, something that ONLY infestor and baneling really provide. ultralisks to an extent but only vs certain groups. But note, doing this on 1 base = instant loss to mech play and typical mech pushes, doing this on 2 base = instant loss to reaper play and reaper harrass. but yeah reapers are weak to the croud control units baneling and infestor. and both are good vs the typical bio followup.
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous.
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On August 23 2010 09:44 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? ---- i agree, i watched almost all of morrow's games via replay for the iem because im a fanboy/terran/nerd. he did marine/tanks against dimaga heh.
+ Show Spoiler +MorroW was on djWHEAT's Weapon of Choice today, and said that Dimaga helped him prepare for the idrA match. Dimaga was the one who told him about the 5rax reaper opening, so I'm sure that had something to do with him not using it vs Dimaga.
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EPT
