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On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous.
Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor).
so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.)
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On August 23 2010 09:59 Vexx wrote:*derail* + Show Spoiler +
I was undecided between Z and T at diamond but after a 45 minute TvT tank+viking fest, I was turned off the idea of playing terran almost completely. Then I watched IEM yesterday and I could not be any more disgusted by the race.
Between "skillful" marauder "kiting" (Good job finding the s button!), abusive reaper play with all the cliffs and even more abusive hellion play, I could not play one more game as terran. It is my personal belief that abuse of game mechanics has nothing to do with skill (I know I'm in the minority.. I've had this argument in every game I've ever played).
Really, farthest/hardest hitting ground unit, fastest hardest hitting most mobile harass units, farthest hitting air to air units, easiest tech line and scan on demand... bleh. */derail*
I'm of the opinion that "mass reaper" builds into hellions will get shit on by roach builds that switch to speedlings once the T goes marauders. The reason being that the reapers can be abusive against roaches when they are kiting them, but they can try to kite at their own risk when the roaches are in T's base.
it's the developer's problem to be honest. players will abuse anything to get ahead. too bad they are actual units lol.
i like what some guy posted what he found from a korean site on the 'BACKWARD DEVELOPMENT' of SC2 starting from the roach.
and i for one, agree to many of the points. specifically stating that many of the units were created specifically as counters in a sense, and not for their creativity. eg. reavers+shuttles, spider mine map control (OMG i miss this), stop lurker traps (well you can baneling trap i suppose lol), moving shot etc...
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On August 23 2010 09:50 brn4meplz wrote:
It seems counter intuitive but your better off just going ling/queen for defense. Spread creep around and the Ling speed can keep Reapers from doing any serious damage. Your obviously going to eat some ling losses but thats irrelevant compared to what will happen if you go roach.
As MorroW showed us during the tournament, this will get your expansion sacked. The only chance you have of saving your expansion with this approach is to get a massive surround on his reapers, but when the Terran has gotten around 10 reapers, he's reached the point where he can decimate your lings before they get their surround. What I mean is that using the ling/queen approach is entirely reliant on the Terran player making a blunder, rather than having a practical and solid defense.
In my opinion, the best way to counter this, is to spread out the creep as far as possible, so your Roaches can chase the Reapers as far as possible, and position them strategically along the cliff edges of your bases. Not overcomitting to the Roach force, and knowing when you're able to get your (relatively) fast tech off will be the deciding factor in this defense.
I'm not a Zerg player however. My last paragraph is mostly theorycrafting, but loosely based on what little success IdrA had vs. this strategy. On Metalopolis, where MorroW lost, he didn't manage to hurt IdrA's economy in time, and delayed his big push to the point where he let IdrA build up 6 Mutalisks, which instantly lost him the game.
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On August 23 2010 10:04 Okiesmokie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:44 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On August 23 2010 09:40 gods_basement wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. did LZ abuse it as well as morrow did? i've seen him stream that build alot, but it never struck me as terribly strong lets not tlak about the games where he didnt 5rax reaper Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:38 Craton wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Idra lost the game due to misreading the build far more than Morrow's all-in won it. Mass reaper is also not a new thing. Please stop trying to name every single build or opener after someone. Idra knew it was coming all three games; Morrow made no efforts to hide it. how would idra have played if he didnt misread? ---- i agree, i watched almost all of morrow's games via replay for the iem because im a fanboy/terran/nerd. he did marine/tanks against dimaga heh. + Show Spoiler +MorroW was on djWHEAT's Weapon of Choice today, and said that Dimaga helped him prepare for the idrA match. Dimaga was the one who told him about the 5rax reaper opening, so I'm sure that had something to do with him not using it vs Dimaga.
i personally like to think of it as a message to idra/blizzard lol.
1. idra i think was known to lose specifically to reaper play on the ladder (USbnet according to match checking nerds, he's still at like 100-20+ WL anyway though)
2. blizzard needs to see personally how ugly the matchup looks when you open lol reapers. what more if you put this in the hands of everyone else against low apm, less then 'nerdy' kids? it's like giving a gun to a 12 year old vs a trained swordsman. swordsman will probably die in a head on fight.
----
i enjoy'ed the theme of marines/medics fighting the zerg horde., instead of of these fireflys hopping up and down cliffs 2-shotting zerglings just trying to chase them off -_-
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Any fast lair without the queen is pretty much impossible against this 5 barracks reaper play. Without the queen you couldn't spread creep if you put down your natural, or if no natural you would be horribly larva starved without a queen that you would hardly put up a fight against the reapers that are en route to your base.
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On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.)
I mean yeah in theory you'll have a infestor at X time, but its not like the terran will wait till he has 8 reapers before he begins his harassment. Once he gets around 5-6 speed reapers if you don't have roaches the game will be over. Not to mention your build skips a queen, no amount of zerglings or spine crawlers will save you and he will pick off your infestation pit while its building.
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What was i thinking, My math was all over the place here. Ignore
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Ironically the "weakness" of the reaper build is kind of also a strength a typical economical reaper will come out after the FE is finished, meaning zerg can't cancel and deal with them, because their build time is so slow you can hit outside the rax with a tech lab for a while before you even see the reaper. but yeah it's beatable but as soon as 50% terrans go for 2 reapers into mech and 50% go 2 reapers into more reapers. i don't know what can be done, as it'll become too difficult to deal with both strategies in the meta.
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Infestors are definitely not the answer, way too slow to get. I would guess just really good speedling micro and just try to hold on until mutas.
Or just roaches with a couple extra queens for transfusion and creep spread?
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On August 23 2010 10:15 Cika wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.) I mean yeah in theory you'll have a infestor at X time, but its not like the terran will wait till he has 8 reapers before he begins his harassment. Once he gets around 5-6 speed reapers if you don't have roaches the game will be over. Not to mention your build skips a queen, no amount of zerglings or spine crawlers will save you and he will pick off your infestation pit while its building.
no but you fend the reapers off until they have 4-5 reapers (and by then your speed should be incoming) and the speedlings can fend off reapers (not kill or even injure, just force retreats to stall)
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As mentioned, the big problems with the Roach method are how it slows you on tech. This also makes you vulnerable as you are forced to "play Terrans game". They have a rediculous amount of ground dominance, as they can tech to marauders/tanks to wipe them up while your slow Mutas come out.
Lings are a great counter to Reapers when there are just a few (similar to Hellions) but once they reach large amounts, it becomes very difficult to counter. More queens is great in theory, especially w/ heal micro, but the "Escape" is to tech to Lair, and Queens will slow the lair too much if you consistently pump enough of them.
So I believe we need to find a way to "stall" long enough with lings, and possibly spike crawlers (problem w/ them is Reapers ravage bulidings - but the big dmg and range of the Crawlers may be worth it if i get enough and combine them w/ Lings)
Would be great if Burrow was available earlier, as you could leave ling/bling "traps" around, but that's not viable atm....
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On August 23 2010 10:15 seiferoth10 wrote:
Any fast lair without the queen is pretty much impossible against this 5 barracks reaper play. Without the queen you couldn't spread creep if you put down your natural, or if no natural you would be horribly larva starved without a queen that you would hardly put up a fight against the reapers that are en route to your base.
when you get a nat you tend to be able to make a queen at it instead of the morphing lair. (this is what i did vs mech). but yeah the two styles require completely different responses which make the existance of both a serious threat.
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I love how it is called the Morrow build...except he never used it before this tournament.
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On August 23 2010 10:21 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:15 seiferoth10 wrote:
Any fast lair without the queen is pretty much impossible against this 5 barracks reaper play. Without the queen you couldn't spread creep if you put down your natural, or if no natural you would be horribly larva starved without a queen that you would hardly put up a fight against the reapers that are en route to your base. when you get a nat you tend to be able to make a queen at it instead of the morphing lair. (this is what i did vs mech). but yeah the two styles require completely different responses which make the existance of both a serious threat.
Unfortunately, the timing on making the queen at your natural is completely based on the Terran's willingness to attack. Many times during the IEM Cologne games, reapers came in force just when the Z's natural was finishing.
Edit: Yeah it probably works versus mech, but will definitely not work against 5 rax reaper.
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On August 23 2010 10:18 PrinceXizor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 10:15 Cika wrote:On August 23 2010 10:09 PrinceXizor wrote:On August 23 2010 09:59 Cika wrote:
How do you expect to fend off reapers till you research pathogen glands then make an infestor? This seems ridiculous. Well when you fast lair, it takes 80 seconds after your spawn pool finishes to get lair, 50 seconds for Infestor pit and then 80 seconds to get an infestor with pathogens active out. so 3:10 game time AFTER the pool finishes you have your infestors, now except against 10 rax reaper, the reapers come out slow enough that you are able to fend off with lings and a spine (as well as speed and micro once the 3 4th 5th rax come out) typically it's a uphill battle until the infestor pops, you fungal the reapers and they are all super weak(so that the next infestor can kill, or lings can surround). Regardless as little as a 200/200 investment (4 reapers) forces a zerg onto 1 base no matter what for about 8 minutes (6:45 or 7 minutes with fast lair muta, 6:20-6:30 with fast lair infestor). so damage is done, but at least infestor tech helps with the follow through (both hellion or marine marauder ect.) I mean yeah in theory you'll have a infestor at X time, but its not like the terran will wait till he has 8 reapers before he begins his harassment. Once he gets around 5-6 speed reapers if you don't have roaches the game will be over. Not to mention your build skips a queen, no amount of zerglings or spine crawlers will save you and he will pick off your infestation pit while its building. no but you fend the reapers off until they have 4-5 reapers (and by then your speed should be incoming) and the speedlings can fend off reapers (not kill or even injure, just force retreats to stall)
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
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On August 23 2010 09:42 threehundred wrote:+ Show Spoiler +yeah but i think morrow opening 5rax reapers in the three previous games prior threw idra just *enough. i think the clutch moment tbh was when NONE of the marauders popped out during the time the lone early overlord was scouting. i think morrow would have cancelled the marauders just in-case anyway, but miraculously, none of them popped during the overlords sacrifice.
Lol miraculously ? He cancelled it, he's just not that stupid
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It's an imbalanced build. Morrow said so himself.
The problem is that reaper speed comes out so fast cause of the 50/50 cost that you don't even get an opportunity to push back the reapers with speedling or roach.
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On August 23 2010 09:43 crazeman wrote:Show nested quote +On August 23 2010 09:34 Turb0 wrote:
It's not Morrow's build, LZGamer used it to great effect in some tourney a few weeks ago. I think it was one of those KotH, but I am probably wrong. HD and Painuser casted a few videos of LZgamer using the strat for the day9 countdown party. It must of been a pretty new strat at the time because machine, sheth (i think), and other obs didn't know a good counter to it.
I'm fairly sure it was Machine and Strifecro, lotsa people seem to remember it being sheth O.O
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On August 23 2010 10:32 Cika wrote:
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
Thats the thing though, You don't commit Zerglings unless you can score some kills on a surround. You just takes 1-2 losses forcing him back off the creep(which you've dutifully spread) and you save gas for Muta's which is the best and earliest actual solution to reapers. Roaches get kited so they are just a delaying action. A delaying action that consumes gas
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On August 23 2010 10:32 Cika wrote:
Stall? 6 reapers will instantly melt packs of speedlings, how will this stall him? He will melt your zerglings, then kill all your drones then you will GG before you are even lair.
6 reapers kill the zerglings when the reapers are not running away, so you go for the surround with your lings and run back when the reapers leave and repeat, it's sustainable.
also LOL at the gg before you are even lair, the whole infestor idea was based on the fast lair (lair before queen), which means the lair comes out about 30 game seconds after your queen would normally finish (IE before the first batch of larva pop). so you definitely get lair, and you use spine (s) and speedlings to force back reapers (while protecting the important things).
Like i said, regardless of what you do (infestors being the best way to beat the reaper + bio followup) you are going to fail mid game to a big push because you were on 1 base vs a 1 or 2 base terran. you have to create big timing windows (which can be closed a bit by good infestor play and overlord placement) in order to catch up. 2-4 reapers automatically put terran as a huge economic advantage without dealing any drone damage.
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EPT
