Hey Echoic, it's amazing how popular this build has become. I've been seeing this build about every 3rd game against terran in the ladder, whether they're 800 points or 1500. I've been using a strong fe build lately on most maps, and it's felt like your build doesn't quite have an answer to a decent fast expand build.
Because 1 gas fe's are so stalker heavy, you already have the right unit composition for either the 10 minute 4 banshee push or 12 minute 6-8 banshee push. As long as you scout it with early aggression (bunker with no marauders pretty much gives it away), it seems too easy to counter just by getting earlier gas/robo/sentries.
The timing push isn't really possible to deal with on maps with a completely open natural (metalopolis, delta quadrant, kulas), but on just about every other map decent ff/g-shield usage+mass stalker annihilates it. Usual response I see is a raven added in, but by the time it has energy for pdd, the timing window is gone (storm's done).
Could you put up a replay of your response to an actually well put together fast expand build? I've yet to see a variation of your build that can hit before the expansion pays for itself.
That sinatra replay was one of the sadder games I've seen to date.. His build: 13 gate(doesn't build a zealot) into nexus into 30 second supply block then eventually into colossus (after seeing banshees).And that "shit's broken" was hilarious.
I have been employing this hellion drop against nearly all my opponents of all races since I started using this strat and its pushed me from 800->1200 and I'm still winning like crazy. You only need to kill about 4 probes for it to be effective. Be sure to drop your hellions on the side of the base and micro them in yourself and you will definitely get some. If they try to run the probes without the main army being right nearby they just lose even more. The most effective counter if you see this harass is to just leave your probes mining unless your main force is VERY clos. When you run the probes you doom yourself if you don't kill those hellions immediately.
I think the drop has value beyond the probes you kill. First, if they are cannoning up, then they are almost nullifying the cost to you by sinking money into stationary defense (I've been using this build for two weeks or so and I just encountered a cannoned mineral line for the first time today (like an idiot, I ran right into it)).
Secondly, drops operate on the psychology of the opponent. Just making the dropship visible then pulling away can force a defensive overreaction, or place an opponent on edge (If I see a warp prism hover near my mineral line only to disappear, I am going to be wary of the drop). Hence, a dropship reveal is, imo, a tactic in and of itself.
Finally, one of the beauties of this build is that I get a sense of anything cheesy going on across the map when I send the dropship out and bring it back. Tonight, my toss opponent tried to take the gold natural close to my base on SOW and I caught it with my dropship. Not only do we get a vision of large swathes of map with the medivac packed with hellions, but we also get a scan of his base that doesn't cost us a MULE.
For the time being, I don't see much value in skipping the drop-harass. I find it beneficial in many ways.
Thanks for such precision in your write-up and in your repsones, iEchoic. I return to this thread everyday to see how the build is faring and your revisions on the 17th were helpful as variations on the toss FE have become all but standard.
To anyone struggling to succeed with this build, as iEchoic said, the BO is tight and requires quality execution to work. I don't always win with this opening, but when I keep my macro up while microing the banshees and I target the sentries then the stalkers, I don't always win on the spot, but I at least break even.
On September 25 2010 10:13 Unstable wrote: Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
I've thought about this question a lot.
To answer your question in a word, 'yes'. First of all, if you check out the replays, I have games vs some quite good players up. lefNaij is a tip-top P player, Sinatra is relatively well-known and a few others aren't bad either. I believe the drops were worthwhile against both players. I am very confident the drop is strong against any level of player. From experience at ~1600, I can definitely tell the hellion drop is worthwhile against good players.
One thing that is crucial to realize is that you receive quite a few intangibles from the hellion drop. You can't just measure the difference off the 'units lost' tab. All the intangibles from the exchange favor you.
Looking at it in-depth, let's do a objective comparison of what both sides accomplish, in the worst-case scenario of the hellion drop:
Terran Player: - Perfect scouting info (hellions look around, fly medivac around after to see the rest) - Forces protoss player to stay in his base - At least minor economic damage* (see below)
Protoss player: - 300 minerals worth of hellions killed. Terran player has a medivac instead of a banshee to use later.
*When I say 'at least minor economic damage', I mean that you should always be able to kill 3-4 probes with good micro, regardless your opponent's actions. Simply dropping, running in and getting off one volley with hellions will insta-kill at least 2 probes. You can stand there and take shots until you die and can kill 3-5 easily, even if your opponent is sitting in his mineral line.
If you kill 4 probes with your hellions, the drop was successful. We're often spoiled by the games where we drop hellions and kill the entire mineral line. But that really isn't necessary. 200 minerals worth of probes that early in the game compounds. At around ~1 mineral/sec (optimal saturation, so 5 minutes after expo goes up), 5 minutes of mining on 4 probes is 1200 minerals. Killing 4 probes, counting your mules, gives you economic control of the game.
If you drop in, run in his mineral line to see 5 stalkers, get off 2-3 volleys and kill 4-5 probes, you've done good. You have perfect scouting info, you now have the economic lead, and you're in a prime position to adapt.
If you do not want to do the hellion drop, I actually recommend still making 3-4 hellions. They actually are very good when you push against zealots. The bad thing about not dropping, though, is that you're playing in the dark and uncertain of your comparative economic level. But I just love hellions in general.
Hope that helps.
Also, thanks for the feedback everyone, I appreciate all of it.
I find that the biggest danger in this build is not knowing what your opponent has, ie. not scouting, or he is doing a proxy somewhere else, liek a proxy stargate.
As it goes, this build is basically running off a basic 1/1/1 which is proven many times to be the counter to any kind of proxy stargates or fast DT tech due to us having unlocked nearly every unit in the terran tree.
And echo has just posted a extremely good explaination on how the drop gives you scouting info. and explained waaay better than i can that no matter what,the hellion drop IS going to be worth it :D tho i admit sometimes if i see too much defense i rather not drop and use them for my main army timing push as tanks for my marines,and additional DPS vs zealots
hellion drop is always worthed it. unless he parks 5 stalkers at his mineral line. but you cant scout what is not in his base, although if you are good enough (im not) u should have a degree of suspicion of proxy buildings based on how many units and buildings he has at a certain time period.
Love this build. I do seem to have problems against fast protoss FE builds that just mass zealot and stalker with a few immortals thrown in. I simply don't have enough units to defend.
On September 26 2010 13:59 jay`t wrote: Love this build. I do seem to have problems against fast protoss FE builds that just mass zealot and stalker with a few immortals thrown in. I simply don't have enough units to defend.
Defending shouldn't be a problem, as you don't need to lift the expo out of your base until you're safe. Your walloff + repair should be enough to hold off anything.
Either way, I've seen a lot of people still having trouble with the protoss FE, so I've added another replay. If you end up losing to a FE build, you can post your replay in here as well and I'll take a look.
Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
I might have found the Protoss counter by accident, but FEing and alot of cannons at your choke and a few scattered protecting your mineral line seems to allow protoss to pretty much power at will.
Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
I didn't see it and I like Trump's stream, mind explaining his results/opinions?
On September 26 2010 17:37 Dadant wrote: Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
Link? Been trying various ways to search without success.
On September 26 2010 17:37 Dadant wrote: Go look @ trumps latest video this build is used in a game v Huk, don't come much better :D yes he got lucky but count how many probes Huk lost.
Link? Been trying various ways to search without success.
i've been doing my own version of this strategy that is very very similar to this and i thought i might be able to add onto it... feel free to critique my logic/strategy... it's basically the same as this except i've been gonig 12 Raxx 12 gas to get my gas flowing earlier because @100gas i do add factory and continue pumping marines as well as the bunker but... i've been adding a reactor to the raxx following fastly behind laying down the factory so that i can tech swap when the fact is up and pump hellions... i pump 4 hellions and the 4th comes out just as the medivac pops... i then load them up and proceed with the drop and do musical tech swap with my buildings... i lift off the factory land it to produce a tech lab... produce a tech lab on the starport and land the raxx back on the reactor to continue marine production... the hellion drop lands with 4 hellions which allow for more dps on probes and usually a more succesfull drop but not always the case XD and i feel this version allows for more marines upon the timing push... earlier aggression is the weakness i feel but the bunker/wall can really neglect this... i'll upload a replay of it working with flawless timings when i get a chance
redlol got supply blocked i think, made only 4 banshees and he didnt even micro them in battle... huk just owned him even though that drop was sooo good.
What about FE into storm? Whenever my opponent goes colossi based armies, I have very little problems handleing it, FE or not. But HTs are the bane of my existence. Do I get cloak to always keep energy down? EMP banshees? Stop banshee production completely and transition?
EPT
