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My comment I guess would be, I had done this "build" for awhile and was spoiled by the fact that iEchoic put up the order instead of watching the replays carefully. After awhile I noticed my version had started to become ineffective (because the Toss players were better and I am around ~1400+).
I watched the replay just for the sake of seeing what I was doing wrong, and I realized I was such a moron! I was flying my dropship RIGHT next to the minerals! iEchoic just landed them as soon as he could touch the base for more of a surprise. The effectiveness of my hellions skyrocketed!
I dont know where I really am going with this, except, even if stalkers ARE somewhat waiting in the mineral line, it would have to really be a significant number to make the drop not work if done effectively. Good Protoss do pylon around their base, which means sneaking the hellions in iEchoic method style works much better.
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such a sick strat - awesome..
ive tried it a few times....im very rusty w the build order and fluidity etc etc...but that will come...
awesome, won some easy games with it....
just need to practice and play...
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This build is absolutely fantastic! Thank you iEchoic you have answered my prayers. Tried this thing out now for 2 days and finally my TvP winrate has caught up with my TvZ and TvT.
No more beating 1400 terrans and zergs just to loose to 700 rating protosses with 50 apm the next game 
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Haha, this was just mentioned on the Daily (184).
Paraphrasing:
"Oh some Terran is doing a hellion drop into banshee/expand with a battle cruiser transition? The best way to deal with that is probably have a lot of shit, because he probably won't."
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On September 22 2010 12:53 captainwaffles wrote:
Haha, this was just mentioned on the Daily (184).
Paraphrasing:
"Oh some Terran is doing a hellion drop into banshee/expand with a battle cruiser transition? The best way to deal with that is probably have a lot of shit, because he probably won't."
Hah, sounds interesting, anyone have an exact quote/what he was responding to?
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Not til the vod comes out :D
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On September 23 2010 03:09 captainwaffles wrote:
Not til the vod comes out :D
VOD is out on Blip.tv.  I pulled it this morning. Just need to dump it to my phone so I can watch on the way home from work (go go metro system).
Back on topic though...I was really rusty because hadn't played in a week and found myself in a TvP this morning. Even with my incredibly HORRID macro and really late timings I still had the ability to make the P so mad he rage quit by saying "I'm not wasting anymore time in this match up".
Again many thanks to you iEchoic for such a fantastic build.
I have a question though and I don't remember if this was asked earlier in the thread so my apologies if it has been asked already.
I only thought about this this morning while listening to Daily 186 on the way to work. Day9 was talking about the way Gretorp gets a fast banshee by going Ref before Rax and getting OC at 16 instead of 15.
Would doing that speed up this build even more because you get the factory faster? I will certainly try it in YABOT tonight but just wondering if anybody has looked at that before.
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The factory will come faster with refinery before rax, but you're more vulnerable to early and mid-game pressure because you'll have a lower marine count. It's probably not worth the trade.
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so is this pretty much an all in or do you build an expo? somewhere later in the build, i mean yea if it doesn't work obviously expo but do most of you just continue on the all in if the first attack doesn't kill the opponent but severely cripples him
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On September 23 2010 05:19 TheOGBlitzKrieg wrote:
so is this pretty much an all in or do you build an expo? somewhere later in the build, i mean yea if it doesn't work obviously expo but do most of you just continue on the all in if the first attack doesn't kill the opponent but severely cripples him
Definitely not an all-in.
I usually expo soon after the drop right as I do my first push.
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thats what i thought i had a similar build to this which was bascially a hellion drop with 4 hellions and a reactor on raxx which went 1/1/1 opener into expo, i would pump 2 rines then reactor then factory then second gas tech swap when fact complete build starport pump out hellions and a medivac drop 4 hellions in the base and toast up some harvesters after the medivac i would drop a tech lab and pump out a raven as well as the bunker in this build and a tech lab on the fact and raxx back to reactor to transition after the harras into a more defensive state because after the harras i usually got attacked and the raven plus a siege tank and bunker would hold it off this sounds really interesting as well tho
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The hellion drop really hurts if they FE and don't see it coming, it's something that throws me off if they pull it off.
+1 that it works.
I'm not sure how well it would work if they don't FE though. Depends on how good the player is.
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I can't find the quote in Day[9]'s VOD, if anyone wants to be a fine gentleman and would let me know what time it happens at in here that'd be fantastic.
@SkullOne I've looked into ref before rax a bit, but there's unfortunately a very easy counter. An opponent who scouts you quickly or knows you go ref-rax can basically kill you right off the bat by 2-gating zealots into your base (they can block off your wall with their own pylon and cancel when they need to go into your base). I didn't watch the daily where day[9] discusses this, but if he has a counter for an aggressive 2-gate, I'd like to hear it.
@OHBlitzKrieg The expo comes after the 2 starports usually, after your first or second production cycle. It's relatively early for how aggressive the build is.
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Thanks for this build iEchoic, it has helped me improve my TvP to my best matchup.
Im having similar issues as other players when countering the fast FE strat. Especially since after the patch, zealots become a lesser part of the P gateway force, and more stalkers/sentries being able to damage your banshees. How would you proceed when you arrive at the P base with the ~13marine, 2 hellion, 4 banshee timing push, and you find 2-3 zealots as meatshields and the rest stalkers/sentries? I guess it could be a micro issue on my part that makes it fail.
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On September 23 2010 06:16 Caprica6 wrote:
Im having similar issues as other players when countering the fast FE strat. Especially since after the patch, zealots become a lesser part of the P gateway force, and more stalkers/sentries being able to damage your banshees. How would you proceed when you arrive at the P base with the ~13marine, 2 hellion, 4 banshee timing push, and you find 2-3 zealots as meatshields and the rest stalkers/sentries? I guess it could be a micro issue on my part that makes it fail.
Have you read my update on the protoss FE? If you haven't, take a look and see if there's anything there that can help.
A heavy stalker/sentry force suggests that they're using a lot of gas on their gateway army, necessarily at the expense of tech. You need to make sure you're keeping them honest by forcing them to get a robo bay, as it's a wasteful structure for them by time you push. If you don't scout a robo bay, make sure you get cloak and punish them.
If they do get a robo, and then mass stalker/sentry, you should be able to harass with mass banshees (4-6+). This is where it really comes down to micro. You should be able to send them in, take out pylons, workers, important structures, etc. They can't punish your banshee harass without either pheonix or templar. I've had a lot of success attacking the back of my opponent's main and then bringing my ground forces in to attack the expo once they come to defend. You have to make a lot with the units you have and really exploit the mobility of your banshees.
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iEchoic, plz do provide with more good replays, more importantly vs opponents that gave u a real hard time.
As for other average players like me, NOT microing ur first push would be detrimental to ur chances! Like iechoic said you can harrass with banshees and force them to defend while u move ur ground forces. A more simple way to attack is directly towards his ramp: if he blocks with sentries back off ur marines so they dont get killed, and try to snipe off the sentries, its really easy with banshees.
If u find opponent troops out in the open, abuse ur marines:group them in a reachable number(I use 5 as I have grid settings enabled), and send them on attack command with ur marines. As soon as he sees banshees he will try to pick them off with stalkers: use that to ur advantage, immediately select banshees and run them back,that will provide sooo many free hits for ur marines, and stalkers arent good vs marines. Banshees then snipe off sentries/immortals/zealots. If he attacks banshees again repeat.
Always have ur production buildings waypoint on a green banshee, reinforcements are valuable and pressure opponent like no end.
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Very well thought out and informative... Not something I'd expect from someone I viewed as a cheater on Socom. I have a new found respect for you, sir.
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Hey iEchoic:
Your build is fantastic. Ive been doing the hellion drop to great effect and have had impressive success with the banshee follow-up.
I have also been adding a raven to the mix after the first push, due to the higher pressence of stalkers that I have been experimenting since patch 1.1. What do you think of ravens as an addition to your banshees? You clear out observers and score heavily with cloak, plus PDD also grants a few free hits.
PS: I have been trying to save at least one hellion from the initial drop to then drop again as the protoss counter-push gets underway, as it seems the protoss is thinking about pushing right as the first drop lands and, after they repel it, the push comes right after. In the midst of that push and fight, the surviving hellion is dropped to do some additional damage.
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When is a good time to get stim packs?
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how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself.
Thanks 
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EPT
