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On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote:how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself. Thanks 
It would not work because marauders/marines will deal with the drop very efficiently and scan > cloak banshee.
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On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote:how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself. Thanks
I saw select do something like this, but he tech labbed his factory got blue flame, then dropped 3 hellions and roastttttttttttted scv's which was practically gg
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On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote:how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself. Thanks
Interestingly, a very similar build has become a standard TvT strat. You can actually do the same build, just instead of loading 3 hellions into the medivac, load your 8 marines into the medivac (you should have 8 when the medivac pops). When you drop the 8 marines on the opponent's mineral line, run the 3 hellions up the ramp.
You need to make a few adjustments but it's actually becoming more viable.
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i HIGHLY HIGHLY reccomend building the bunker like literally dead after the oc goes up if not then then after the sd after this...
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On September 24 2010 02:47 iEchoic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 23 2010 23:59 xprometheusx wrote:how would this build work against a terran player? Sorry didn't read through every single post, so if someone asked and it was answered, just let me know and I will find it myself. Thanks Interestingly, a very similar build has become a standard TvT strat. You can actually do the same build, just instead of loading 3 hellions into the medivac, load your 8 marines into the medivac (you should have 8 when the medivac pops). When you drop the 8 marines on the opponent's mineral line, run the 3 hellions up the ramp. You need to make a few adjustments but it's actually becoming more viable.
but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
btw, 10 win streak with at least 5 protoss getting some hellion drop taste there!cmon blizz gimme diamond!
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I was reading your update vs the Protoss FE and i'm a bit unclear what your talking about with the 2 ghost timing attack, is this in addition to the banshees? Do you wait till you have 2 ghosts out and 2 - 4 banshees + marines when you attack?
Also I've been doing this strat with a reactor after the first marine, the drop timings seem to be the around same (I usually get a second gas a bit faster) and you get a few more marines out and better production capability in the midgame. Is there a particular reason you stick with the non reactored rax in the begining? Perhaps the gas cost?
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On September 24 2010 04:51 policymaker wrote:
but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
Most terrans do not wall off against other terrans, so this is quite unlikely. If they do though, harass the supply depots in the wall, I imagine, force them to deal with you.
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On September 24 2010 05:55 talecK wrote:
I was reading your update vs the Protoss FE and i'm a bit unclear what your talking about with the 2 ghost timing attack, is this in addition to the banshees? Do you wait till you have 2 ghosts out and 2 - 4 banshees + marines when you attack?
Also I've been doing this strat with a reactor after the first marine, the drop timings seem to be the around same (I usually get a second gas a bit faster) and you get a few more marines out and better production capability in the midgame. Is there a particular reason you stick with the non reactored rax in the begining? Perhaps the gas cost?
i think youre preparing for them to timing attack you.
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On September 24 2010 05:57 ale_jrb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 04:51 policymaker wrote:
but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
Most terrans do not wall off against other terrans, so this is quite unlikely. If they do though, harass the supply depots in the wall, I imagine, force them to deal with you.
yeah i didnt think about that, but if they do block the ramp then hellions cant do anything 
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On September 24 2010 10:02 policymaker wrote:Show nested quote +On September 24 2010 05:57 ale_jrb wrote:On September 24 2010 04:51 policymaker wrote:
but the ramp will be blocked, what would the hellions do then ?
Most terrans do not wall off against other terrans, so this is quite unlikely. If they do though, harass the supply depots in the wall, I imagine, force them to deal with you. yeah i didnt think about that, but if they do block the ramp then hellions cant do anything
You'll obviously scout whether he's walling off or not when you scout at 10 supply
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which means u might not be able to use suggested build... or he can block later 
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Thanks for making my life 20 times harder as a protoss player =(
Lol jokes aside, great build, very nicely written and thought out.
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I'm seeing a lot of toss players adapt to this via sim city. Any thoughts?
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Obviously I want to thank you for the build before I criticize it; because it's truly a solid BO that can throw a good deal of protosses off guard.
I'm noticing that some protoss, after having scouted my bunker/wall skips mass-stalkers in favour of adding a 2-4 sentries to their immortal/stalker army and they then takes their expo, putting me behind unless my hellion drop is successful - which it doesn't necessarily has to be, given that they are capable of not hotkeying all their units to "1" and actually leaving 1-3 stalkers behind after having read into my strategy. Another problem I'm sometimes seeing are 2 cannons being placed in advance near their expansion which leaves me unable to move in with only marines/banshees and my 1 medivac.
Do you really feel that hellions will be viable against "better" players. To me it seems that the better the opposition is, the less incitement I have to try the hellion-drop. Isn't it viable enough to put money on a quicker cc, ghosts, or one additional rax and just opt for a timing-push, skipping the harass completely?
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@Unstable
I think you have it wrong. the thing is in this echo build, the hellions are kinda like a way to keep the enemy in their base defending while you buy your time to get your banshee out while the harass is ongoing.
hellions are being so cheap at 100minerals a piece. to make the 3 hellions pay for themself,all you need is 5-6worker kills(50 per worker).once you factor in mining time lost,and rebuilding the workers time, theres really no possibility that your hellion drop doesnt pay for itself,even if you just manage to get 3 worker kills.
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The thing being is that; protoss doesn't have any reason to move out if they read into this strategy. They won't be able to break my bunker/wall off 1 base (without sufficient tech) - meaning that it makes much more sense for the protoss to stay within his own perimeters with only a few scouts roaming the map, whilst opting for a macro-game with an earlier expansion.
Given that he does exactly that, it's so easy for him to play safe with his main force up front, whilst leaving 1-3 stalkers on tactical locations to make me pull back my dropship, or drop in an unfavourable location or whilst being fired upon, both options giving him time to move his probes in advance.
If you manage to kill something, it's fine -- but the times when the protoss reacts properly, the drop is a heavy liability.
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1-3stalkers cannot kill your drop fast enough for it to matter, i fully understand what your talking about, but my personal experience using this build is that there will ALWAYS be holes for a drop to go through. there's no such thing as a perfect defense.
in this case where the protoss FE, whats going to stop you from FE yourself? this build isnt the end all be all strat vs protoss. you will have to modify it according to what the enemy does. There's new replays posted by echo,he faced a FE protoss, so he decided to FE himself and change to marauders.
Please do not follow this guide exactly & blindly. improvise and change it as needed as the enemy is a human player. there's no such thing as a sure win strategy.
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Obviously I adapt, in every game - there is no other way when playing against upper diamond players. But I want to discuss the downside with wasting 300 minerals against an opponent that is capable of defending against it, on a map where it's possible to defend somewhat easily (steppes of war ie. 2 pylons on both sides of the base gives proper vision and 1-3 stalkers will make sure that all probes has a chance to move before any trio of hellions gets within range).
In plaintext: Do you (readers) feel that with better opponents, that it makes more sense to skip the harass in favour of a stronger timing push?
What would you add instead of 3 hellions? (another barrack, ghost-tech, expansion ... )
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I love the discussion, been reading it on the way home, once I get setup I'll give some comments on it.
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vs a scenario where a drop wont be cost effective,but the protoss is on 1 base teching to HTs:-
i wouldnt drop and just use the 3 hellions in my main army push. they will help to tank for my marines & be somewhat effective against the zealots.
vs a scenario where a drop wont be cost effective(! damn thats hard to imagine :D) and the protoss FE:-
i would FE myself & throw down 4more raxes and tech labs to transition into a Barracks play. i would keep the 2 starport techlabbed as it will still give me my medivacs 2 by 2s, and giving me to option to tech switch into Ravens/BC as needed. yes i still love my BCs, as TANKS. their dps is respectable,but hell they can tank a lot of stalker shots.
i think this is the only 2 scenarios that i've faced using this build.
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EPT
