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[H] Can't win games anymore.

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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1 2 Next All
kelustu
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18 Posts
August 22 2010 17:19 GMT
#1
So I posted here a few days ago about what I should do to pick a race and how to push into Diamond(i'd taken a break from SC2 for a bit beforehand) and just can't seem to win games. I'm losing to people now that I KNOW I'm better than. Terran just becomes a stupid piece of shit matchup because I can't really scout what they're doing past 5 minutes in until I can get an overseer, which is usually too late. By the time my overseer finishes, they've got tanks and marines rolling into my base and killing my roaches, banelings, pretty much anything. I'm at a loss for what strategies to do now. The only thing I can think of is straight 6pooling(I hate cheese) on small maps and FE muta rush on large maps(against all races). Other zergs just turn into "who can get mutas first" with a ling/roach standoff army staring at each other, microing around. Protoss matches are infuriating because of the fact that they all go stalkers and I'm not exactly sure what the fuck beats stalkers.

If I play toss, terran goes MMM before I can get my robo up and just overpowers me, other toss matches are 50/50 and zerg are 50/50. I haven't played much terran, but it also seems like such a luck matchup against anything(not sure how others are getting me every time).

I know the #1 piece of advice on here is "scout scout scout scout then scout some more" but when I can't get into his base, I can't scout, and it's a problem. I can scan sweep on Terran to get some info, but on maps with large bases, I can't always hit the important information, and that puts me down a mule for econ. As zerg, there's no real scouting(people block entrance to their base) until Overseers after the initial scout, which is too late. Toss isn't real bad because I guess you can 2gate push into 4gate stalkers against anything.
ltortoise
Profile Joined August 2010
633 Posts
August 22 2010 17:28 GMT
#2
I'm not going to give you any specific advice, but if you are losing a lot in general, then specific builds probably aren't the problem.

Just practice more. Mass custom games. Play team games. Work on multitasking and scouting scouting scouting. Don't feel obligated to ladder 1v1 if you feel you aren't playing well lately.

Random is the hardest race to play with the longest learning curve. If you want to stick with it, work on each race individually in custom games or team games to iron out your weaknesses.
angerpowered
Profile Joined August 2010
United States56 Posts
August 22 2010 17:31 GMT
#3
Maybe you want to sacrifice an overlord?
Anyway I'd suggest baneling/muta against marine tank.

I'm a fan of speedlings and banelings in my mirror ZvZ. It makes it relatively easy to transition into mutas too and if you get your banelings in you auto win.

Another idea is that you're in a slump? and that if you take a break it'll wear off?

Or you could also just spam more games and experiment (I love doing this).
"I was SO mad!"
kelustu
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18 Posts
August 22 2010 17:34 GMT
#4
Seems like DTs are working well at this level against toss/terran because all terran go MMM and don't know how to play anything else. I giant zealot/stalker ball with 2-3 DTs mixed in is wrecking terran in particular. I know when to move them out(before the scan sweep hits even) and seem to be doing well with that. I do generally have a good idea of what they're going when I scout early, and have been scouting more, but build orders do really seem to be a big problem. In mirror matches(if we go the same build) I'm always just a little bit behind, which loses the game for me. If I try to counter them, I usually just get overpowered by their sheer army size.
JrK
Profile Joined June 2010
United States283 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-22 17:40:37
August 22 2010 17:40 GMT
#5
Please post replays. Nobody can really help you (other than theorycraft) till you do. It's right in the forum guidelines stickied at the top.

If you're losing mirror matches because you're "always behind" you need to review your replays and figure it out, and if not we certainly can.
JrKjrKJrk
Chriamon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States886 Posts
August 22 2010 17:41 GMT
#6
On August 23 2010 02:19 kelustu wrote:
So I posted here a few days ago about what I should do to pick a race and how to push into Diamond(i'd taken a break from SC2 for a bit beforehand) and just can't seem to win games. I'm losing to people now that I KNOW I'm better than.

This is your main problem right here. Stop thinking this. You are not losing to people you are better than. You really need to humble yourself, that is the best way to improve. If you think you lost to someone that you are better than, you aren't going to analyze your mistakes thoroughly, and the fact is your only excuse for losing is that the other guy was better than you that game. Even if there are racial imbalances (not that there are), up until the very top, you can easily overcome these imbalances by just playing better.

The advice I'd give you, stop thinking "oh, I lose to that guy but I'm better than him." That doesn't help you at all. If you really were better than him, you'd have won. You need to humble yourself in order to really advance quickly as a player.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/274906/1/Blaze/
Douillos
Profile Joined May 2010
France3195 Posts
August 22 2010 17:48 GMT
#7
If I get your post, you have trouble scouting. Here's some help as Zerg.

Against Z not much to be said. Against P and T, first of all, run up ramp to see army composition. Then suicide overlords is the best. But don't just move select a proper angle. What I do is my first to ovies are placed on each side of the base. Once my drone is dead, I said them in one after the other with about one minute between. You can easily deduce tech choices from units and buildings. Look out for tech labs, reactors and such. Another important hing is when your opponent takes gas, which often gives out openings. Finally, know your opponents race: learn to rekognize a 4 gate, a void rush, bio ball, mech, etc.

Lings in proper mass rape stalkers with proper micro, ie flanking, and hydras rape em face down.

You seem to have other problems to fix than just scouting if you get steamrolled marine tank though.
Look a giraffe! Look a fist!!
OblivionMage
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada377 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-22 17:50:35
August 22 2010 17:48 GMT
#8
On August 23 2010 02:41 Chriamon wrote:
The advice I'd give you, stop thinking "oh, I lose to that guy but I'm better than him." That doesn't help you at all. If you really were better than him, you'd have won. You need to humble yourself in order to really advance quickly as a player.


He clearly meant that he thought he was good at the games fundamentals but didn't know what to do in certain situations strategically. There is a significant difference between the two (a strong Warcraft 3 player could be losing lots of Starcraft 2 games, even though they are quick with their unit control and production, because they lack in their strategic knowledge).

Giving us some replays would indeed be helpful, and as for some advice, I can only say that watching tournaments and high-level replays has done wonders for my strategic game. Looking over your own losing replays afterwords can be valuable, too, especially if you can pick out why you lost. Perhaps find one issue in your gameplay after every game and try to fix it, or at least give it special attention in your next few matches (i.e. queen larvae, creep spreading, scouting, drone production / transferring, etc...).

Good luck!
Apexplayer
Profile Joined September 2009
United States406 Posts
August 22 2010 17:54 GMT
#9
Your making it sound like terran is so op that it's impossible. At the low level of play that you are at the only imba aspect (tvz) is not exploited by your opponents. The imbalance really starts at around mid 800 elo on diamond.
hizBALLIN
Profile Joined June 2010
United States163 Posts
August 22 2010 18:05 GMT
#10
Work on making your execution clean and crisp, and trying to spot the "tell" signs of specific builds and transitions. As a Random player (it seems, from the OP) then you honestly should have a solid idea of what all the builds look like, basically. Also, if you play random, hopefully you have a decent grasp on what "counters" what, or at least "what" can beat "what" with some basic micro.
That which is overdesigned, too highly specific, anticipates outcomes; the anticipation of outcome guarantees, if not failure, the absence of grace.
SnuggleZhenya
Profile Joined July 2010
596 Posts
August 22 2010 20:12 GMT
#11
On August 23 2010 03:05 hizBALLIN wrote:
Work on making your execution clean and crisp.


This is just way easier said than done. I'm having similar problem as the OP (though i switched to protoss full time from random a week and a half ago), and its just unbelievably frustrating for players in my position sometimes(Platinum league). I'm not terrible, I sort of know what I'm doing, but my RTS fundamentals are weak, mistakes abound, and I really honestly believe that the only way to push through is just ot grind out hundreds of ladder games and in the mean time I really REALLY just want to up and quit sometimes because its just cut throat and brutal. Its hard to work on your execution and smoothing out your builds when you are getting cheesed 1/2 your games, and its occasionally just nightmareish.

Then sometimes I play absolutely fantastic and beat diamond players, have solid macro, play well, and then 2 days later I'm right back in the gutter. Like I said, its a matter of consistency and playing the game a ton, but when you come on the forums looking for advice and you basically get "well you just need to play better" well...frankly it makes me think im just not cut out for SC2 sometimes.
You'll never get better being an angry nerd sitting alone in your room.
kelustu
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18 Posts
August 22 2010 20:19 GMT
#12
On August 23 2010 02:41 Chriamon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2010 02:19 kelustu wrote:
So I posted here a few days ago about what I should do to pick a race and how to push into Diamond(i'd taken a break from SC2 for a bit beforehand) and just can't seem to win games. I'm losing to people now that I KNOW I'm better than.

This is your main problem right here. Stop thinking this. You are not losing to people you are better than. You really need to humble yourself, that is the best way to improve. If you think you lost to someone that you are better than, you aren't going to analyze your mistakes thoroughly, and the fact is your only excuse for losing is that the other guy was better than you that game. Even if there are racial imbalances (not that there are), up until the very top, you can easily overcome these imbalances by just playing better.

The advice I'd give you, stop thinking "oh, I lose to that guy but I'm better than him." That doesn't help you at all. If you really were better than him, you'd have won. You need to humble yourself in order to really advance quickly as a player.



Pardon the insult, because you are trying to help, but that's like saying you will lose because you think you will lose. Both are a load of shit and for the weak-minded. I know I'm better than them, but I'm also smart enough to realize my main mistake was not enough scouting, and not knowing what to counter him with efficiently.
kelustu
Profile Joined August 2010
United States18 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-08-22 20:25:01
August 22 2010 20:22 GMT
#13
On August 23 2010 03:05 hizBALLIN wrote:
Work on making your execution clean and crisp, and trying to spot the "tell" signs of specific builds and transitions. As a Random player (it seems, from the OP) then you honestly should have a solid idea of what all the builds look like, basically. Also, if you play random, hopefully you have a decent grasp on what "counters" what, or at least "what" can beat "what" with some basic micro.


The problem comes when I see early cybernetics core, 1gate and early gas. At that point, should I expect some fucked up stalker build? A bad charge rush? Void Ray rush? DTs? That kind of thing. When I see 2 barracks, I know I'm expecting MMM and when I see early lair/gas, I can assume it's probably mutas(if he didn't get roaches, hydras if he did). Problem is(the overlord suggestion was great, thx) scouting for the 2 rax and being ready for the mutas as opposed to scouting just too late. By the time I try to rescout the toss, he has some stalkers and I can't get in though, so I still have no idea what he's teching.

I have a zerg and toss replay I will put up soon, but my toss game was pretty bad. It was against an awful terran who went marine/marauder/ghost with no t2 tech other than ghosts. I went DTs and got em out at a clutch time and beat him, so I guess I'll load that one for now and get another one in when I get a chance.
JonnyLaw
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States3482 Posts
August 22 2010 20:25 GMT
#14
+ Show Spoiler +
On August 23 2010 05:12 SnuggleZhenya wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2010 03:05 hizBALLIN wrote:
Work on making your execution clean and crisp.


This is just way easier said than done. I'm having similar problem as the OP (though i switched to protoss full time from random a week and a half ago), and its just unbelievably frustrating for players in my position sometimes(Platinum league). I'm not terrible, I sort of know what I'm doing, but my RTS fundamentals are weak, mistakes abound, and I really honestly believe that the only way to push through is just ot grind out hundreds of ladder games and in the mean time I really REALLY just want to up and quit sometimes because its just cut throat and brutal. Its hard to work on your execution and smoothing out your builds when you are getting cheesed 1/2 your games, and its occasionally just nightmareish.

Then sometimes I play absolutely fantastic and beat diamond players, have solid macro, play well, and then 2 days later I'm right back in the gutter. Like I said, its a matter of consistency and playing the game a ton, but when you come on the forums looking for advice and you basically get "well you just need to play better" well...frankly it makes me think im just not cut out for SC2 sometimes.



Snuggle,
Sometimes you just need to have some fun with a game. RTS games are competitive because players enjoy improving and winning.
you describe playing a game as "nightmareish, grind, frustrating, something i'm not cut out for."

Really you won't win all of your games. Losses teach more than wins. Look at the games and have some fun. Most builds you consider cheese can be spotted and you can adapt. Anywho gl hf.
WhiteComet
Profile Joined July 2010
United States51 Posts
August 22 2010 21:54 GMT
#15
On August 23 2010 05:22 kelustu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2010 03:05 hizBALLIN wrote:
Work on making your execution clean and crisp, and trying to spot the "tell" signs of specific builds and transitions. As a Random player (it seems, from the OP) then you honestly should have a solid idea of what all the builds look like, basically. Also, if you play random, hopefully you have a decent grasp on what "counters" what, or at least "what" can beat "what" with some basic micro.


The problem comes when I see early cybernetics core, 1gate and early gas. At that point, should I expect some fucked up stalker build? A bad charge rush? Void Ray rush? DTs? That kind of thing. When I see 2 barracks, I know I'm expecting MMM and when I see early lair/gas, I can assume it's probably mutas(if he didn't get roaches, hydras if he did). Problem is(the overlord suggestion was great, thx) scouting for the 2 rax and being ready for the mutas as opposed to scouting just too late. By the time I try to rescout the toss, he has some stalkers and I can't get in though, so I still have no idea what he's teching.

I have a zerg and toss replay I will put up soon, but my toss game was pretty bad. It was against an awful terran who went marine/marauder/ghost with no t2 tech other than ghosts. I went DTs and got em out at a clutch time and beat him, so I guess I'll load that one for now and get another one in when I get a chance.


I'm going to start out with saying, I have to agree with the guy who posted earlier "if you lose you're not better than him". Underestimating your opponent is poison.

When people scout, it's not just observers or sacrificing overlords or throwing up a scan. You need to think broader. 1gate cybernetics means he won't be zealot rushing you. That's all to it. You narrow down 1 possibility what the opponent will do. What can you do next? Try running up the opponents ramp, what do you see before your scouting zerging dies? do you see a good number of units? or minimal enough to defend a choke? If he has small number of troops he's most likely working on some shady tech, such as DTs or VRs. What do you do then? You attack him when he has a small army before that shady units comes to play. Don't complain that opponents won't let you into their base so you can see what they have, It's like taking the SATs, you narrow down options and guess what the opponent is doing.
I met you, the stars sparkled, and I was born. Catch a falling star that looks ablazed and light a fire.
Surrealz
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States449 Posts
August 22 2010 22:11 GMT
#16
sacrifice overlords and/or zerglings up the ramp
1a2a3a
Yaotzin
Profile Joined August 2010
South Africa4280 Posts
August 22 2010 22:23 GMT
#17
On August 23 2010 05:25 Ummbeefy wrote:
Really you won't win all of your games. Losses teach more than wins. Look at the games and have some fun. Most builds you consider cheese can be spotted and you can adapt. Anywho gl hf.

Not only can you not win every game, the matchmaker is designed to make you lose half the time.

Being cheesed a lot is good practice, your standard build needs to be able to counter it. If it can't it's flawed.
sfdrew
Profile Joined January 2010
United States201 Posts
August 22 2010 22:39 GMT
#18
Pick terran and face-roll, you'll win every match.

Seriously though, are you playing tired/drunk/distracted? The game can require split second timing, so I. avoid ladder matches when I am not on my best game.

Also, losing isn't a bad thing as long as you are getting better.
I cant build there, somethins in the way
Twist-O-Fate
Profile Joined May 2010
Canada38 Posts
August 22 2010 22:52 GMT
#19
On August 23 2010 05:19 kelustu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 23 2010 02:41 Chriamon wrote:
On August 23 2010 02:19 kelustu wrote:
So I posted here a few days ago about what I should do to pick a race and how to push into Diamond(i'd taken a break from SC2 for a bit beforehand) and just can't seem to win games. I'm losing to people now that I KNOW I'm better than.

This is your main problem right here. Stop thinking this. You are not losing to people you are better than. You really need to humble yourself, that is the best way to improve. If you think you lost to someone that you are better than, you aren't going to analyze your mistakes thoroughly, and the fact is your only excuse for losing is that the other guy was better than you that game. Even if there are racial imbalances (not that there are), up until the very top, you can easily overcome these imbalances by just playing better.

The advice I'd give you, stop thinking "oh, I lose to that guy but I'm better than him." That doesn't help you at all. If you really were better than him, you'd have won. You need to humble yourself in order to really advance quickly as a player.



Pardon the insult, because you are trying to help, but that's like saying you will lose because you think you will lose. Both are a load of shit and for the weak-minded. I know I'm better than them, but I'm also smart enough to realize my main mistake was not enough scouting, and not knowing what to counter him with efficiently.


Right over your head...
Read not to contradict and to confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider.
ObtuseLogic
Profile Joined February 2003
United States72 Posts
August 22 2010 22:55 GMT
#20
I've suffered a similar problem since coming back to Starcraft (2). I play against people that I know "I used to be better than this." It's frustrating, and you know you can do better. I think most of the posts here are good things to keep in mind, but my advice would be:

1. If you see where you are deficient, work on it. "I feel like I can't see what he's doing." Take some time to just work on your scouting. Your macro may suffer, your micro may suffer.. Work at extending the life of your drone in the toss or terran base. You'll lose a lot of games while you get the practice in, but it's no biggie. As it becomes second nature to have your scouting down, you'll find you have more time to get back to the rest of your game play.

2. Don't worry about the losses. If you are sitting on a line where one more win will push you past the qualifiers for a big tournament, by all means worry about your losses. Right now, the ladder is an arbitrary thing, and losing just means you'll play easier people. Remember that when you've been playing a lot, your timing is strong and your sense of "what players will do". Coming back after down time will take you a little time, especially with the speed strategies are changing right now.

3. This is going to sound contradictory, but play more without pushing a losing streak. I've found as I'm playing and I play against increasingly worse players (and keep losing!) that I want to "get one win because I know I'm better than this".... It's better to take a break, get a breather; think about something else. That being said, the only way to get back in the game is going to be repetition.

4. If you still can't figure out what you are doing wrong, post replays and ask friends/the community to review and give feedback. Most importantly, listen to it. If a bunch of people watch your replay and say, "you should have held off on that expo" or "you need another 10-12 lings early", make sure you take the advice for what it is rather than dismissing it.

Hope this helps, and good luck!
As long as there are people to flame me, I will continue to make stupid comments.
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