|
put them back on gas once you've finished with the attack (ie not making any more lings and swapped back to drone production). Personally though i only pull 2 drones off gas. It lets me get some gas income in for a quicker lair or quick +1melee for when i stop the attack.
I take my 2nd gas when my lair is halfway done. I'll take expo gas when i feel i need more gas (usually once my t2 tech building is done or nearly done).
In general though unless you're going for super super fast mutas you grab your 2nd gas sometime while your lair is building. Expo gas is a little tricker since you need to get a feel for it, but around the time your den/spire/pit is going up usually works. The reason 5RR pulls drones off gas is because the mineral income actually allows you to keep up with the enemy mineral income despite a usually lower worker count (since they have guys in gas), which means you can grab the expo and pump reinforcement lings
|
This will be SOOOOOO good after the next patch!
|
Does anyone have any replays of this since the last patch? I'd prefer to not have to log out and in every time I want to watch one.
|
On October 09 2010 09:50 cosmo.6792 wrote:
Typical Zerg in ZvP will wait until Supply 15 to get gas. Or maybe even after the fast expansion.
The standard at this point and time is 14 gas 13/14 pool.
|
Fistdantilus, thank you for this build. Its much better than the roach rush build I used back in beta. - I went 5:0 on my placements for 1v1 and got hotshot, using this build all 5 times. Only in 1 game did I even have to move on past the first push.
|
has anyone tried a double gas steal vs protoss combined with this strategy (though obviously delaying the roaches by a small amount)?
It seems as though it would be a good way to force more zealots in the early game, which this build counters.
|
On October 11 2010 11:38 smegged wrote:
has anyone tried a double gas steal vs protoss combined with this strategy (though obviously delaying the roaches by a small amount)?
It seems as though it would be a good way to force more zealots in the early game, which this build counters.
That would be really effective if you could pull it off and still have enough minerals and gas to morph the 5 roaches upon completion of the Roach Warren...as it is, if you execute the 5RR correctly, the ONLY way that Protoss can stop it is with stalkers...zealots die too easily to basic roach micro. A double gas steal would delay stalkers long enough for your roaches to bust the wall, at least. I think you could actually have the 5 roaches out just as fast if you cut some zerglings and drones and save the money for the queen and roach warren...your economy will be much weaker, and you won't have zerglings to chase off the probe, but it shouldn't matter with the gas steal because even if they see it coming, they can't do anything about it...maybe they could go mass cannons, but I'm not sure if they'd have the time/money to pull it off. I'm gonna try this against the comp and see if I can come up with a viable double-gas steal version of the 5RR; if it works it'll be too good to be true.
|
If you want to do a double gas steal, I guess you should take your own gas later and skip zergling speed. As the idea is to fight only zealots, it is not that important anyway. Of course once the game progresses past the early aggression the toss will focus on stalkers/immortals so a backtech to zerglings is advised afterwards.
A rough calculation shows that a double gas steal sets you back about 400 minerals and 2 drones when your roaches are out, by skipping speed and taking gas later you save a bit more than 200, so you are still behind compared to the normal build. If you do a lot of damage with the roaches it is ok I guess, for sure you will not run into forcefields or a lot of stalkers.
|
Vs a double gas-steal you'll just cannon-expand, so you need to make sure you can kill that.
|
I've been doing double injection and pushing against terran. I've been trying to feint an expo by sending a drone out to my expo area, while saving larvae and not building the warren til a bit later, then making 10 roaches at once, it's been going pretty good. Everytime I do this, the T appears out of his base with 10 marines and 4 hellions trying to do a timing push or smoething.
|
Just curious, what's the standard for this build nowadays, I see a lot of different versions popping up every couple pages. I haven't really tried this build myself, since I usually try to play more standard on ladder, but it seems like an interesting build to pull out every once in awhile. Overall, it seems very solid, although you can be at slight disadvantages at certain points in the game. I think if a Terran wastes a scan to see your roach warren morphing in, you can just plop down a FE, and mass speedlings, and transition into the midgame without any roaches.
|
I've been doing the following BO:
+ Show Spoiler +9 Overlord
13 Pool
15 Extractor
15 Overlord
*wait for pool*
15 Zergling
16 Queen
Get rid of the scout with the zerglings and plant Roach Warren after at 50-70% Queen, scout enemy with the zerglings
20 Overlord
Wait for Roach Warren, make 6-7 Roaches and attack asap
Like this I actually do a 6-7 Roach Rush (depends on the Larva Timing, injecting a tiny bit later allowes for 3+4 Larvae but I'm still working on that). Second injected larvae wave goes into drones, after that I expand, get speed and +1 melee or lair, depending on what I can scout during my attack.
My goal is just to deal as much damage as I can, disrupting my enemys build order and putting pressure on him, so I can get ahead economically.
Here is a replay pack against several openings (replays named accordingly), the only ones which can really hold it off without much damage are thickly walled terrans (barracks&factory with enough units) or sentry-stalker combinations.
RR Opening vs T&P
/Edit:
Since people usually want stats before they watch replays: currently #14 Diamond with 1250 points and 118/100 Ratio on EU.
|
As I have climbed up the rankings (1158 Diamond,) the effectiveness of this against Terran has diminished. Against Protoss though I have actually experienced greater success. Many of my protoss opponents go Gate->Cyber->Robo->Gate chronoing warp tech and when I reach their base they have but 2-4 zealots and 1-2 stalkers. As far as I can tell when a protoss does this build order its a GG (or 2gate zealot). If they built a senty instead of a stalker they would probably be fine but most I have faced have only gone zealots -> stalkers. When I see this I just turn my push into an All In (don't drone pump, speedling pump), knowing that I can pretty much demolish them.
Against Terran I use it more situationaly. If I see a depot/Rax wall and only marines while poking with my lings I will go 5rr, if I see less than 3 marauders, it is an option, tho spling/bling is likely better.
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/89196-1v1-terran-zerg-xelnaga-caverns#rd:undefined;markup
http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/89195-1v1-protoss-zerg-jungle-basin#rd:buildorder;markup
Its not letting me upload anymore replays, saying there is an error parsing, I'll upload more when I get a chance.
|
I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
|
On October 11 2010 17:45 Sirion wrote:
If you want to do a double gas steal, I guess you should take your own gas later and skip zergling speed. As the idea is to fight only zealots, it is not that important anyway. Of course once the game progresses past the early aggression the toss will focus on stalkers/immortals so a backtech to zerglings is advised afterwards.
A rough calculation shows that a double gas steal sets you back about 400 minerals and 2 drones when your roaches are out, by skipping speed and taking gas later you save a bit more than 200, so you are still behind compared to the normal build. If you do a lot of damage with the roaches it is ok I guess, for sure you will not run into forcefields or a lot of stalkers.
Interesting. You either need to kill 2 more zealots/pylons than you would otherwise to break even or kill 4 probes. Still could be worth it against protoss as a lot of players will not know how to adapt well.
*sigh* I need the internet at home so I can try this.
|
I have no idea how this build became popular vs terran. Its beyond horrible. I can defend it while doing 1 rax FE, reactor helion FE, banchee rush. Basicly anything. Its hilarious when I do 1 rax FE since I will get my expo up before you.
|
On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote:
I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss.
Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
|
On October 12 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote:
I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss. Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult.
The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
|
Against sentries you only need to abort if there's more than one. A single sentry won't be able to stop the rush or slow it enough to actually do anything. All you do is wait out the first forcefield and then break in. It doesn't matter as much if your roaches get a little split as you can still use them to open a hole for the lings.
Against terrans i've had a bit more mixed success. Tech builds get demolished unless the wall is build properly (ie two big buildings like a rax, etc) or they go for lots of marauders early. Not sure how a 1rax FE stops the 5RR. What units do you have at your wall? and how do you manage to expand when the zerg has all those units for map control? I don't see what you can mean by having the expansion up before the zerg player when you won';t be able to land the cc
|
On October 12 2010 12:02 ewswes wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2010 11:25 MorsCerta wrote:On October 12 2010 09:03 ewswes wrote:
I don't understand how this build could possibly work against a protoss with sentries force fielding the ramp and slowly picking off your roaches. All you're doing is massively delaying your econ while doing no damage to the protoss. Because you deny scouting, and the max amount of sentries a toss could have out is 1, especially a toss going warp into robo. If they don't know its coming and I know their composition, its not very difficult. The standard build for 4gate, 3gate/expand, 2gate/forge/expand is to build 1 zealot then 5 sentries. Also by the time your roaches arrive at the toss base, warpgates will either be done or very close to done so he can easily warp in stalkers and fend off your rush with almost no damage.
I have never, ever ever ever, seen someone open with 5 sentries. (1200 diamond take with grain of salt.) The most I have seen is 1, and warp tech does finish as I get there and I have faced stalkers incoming, which is why if I see they will need to warp in to hold off my attack, I will follow up with 8-12 speedlings, Because 9 times out of 10 they will warp 2-3 stalkers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
