EPTvs protoss it can be huge and make the difference when he has lesser sentrys/stalker
[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 36
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sayhii
1 Post
vs protoss it can be huge and make the difference when he has lesser sentrys/stalker | ||
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
So I'm in the silver league, I'm new to zerg, and I generally suck, but I've been having success with this build and I really like the fact that it's early aggression without being all-in. But I just encountered a situation for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Here's the replay. ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-154507.jpg) I rushed with my usual timings (I've read people in this thread saying they're getting the roaches out before or just after 5 minutes - but this is the best I've managed), and built my customary in-base hatch instead of expanding. I took out a supply depot (which, in the replay, actually caused the terran to be supply blocked), but he had a bunker at the choke. In my infinite wisdom, I blindly threw my followup lings against it and lost 1000 resources worth of units, which really hurt me and eventually he pushed out with marine/marauder/hellion and crushed me. My question is what would have been more sensible than suiciding my lings in that situation? I knew the bunker was there. I knew it was risky, but I thought I might be able to break through. I was wrong. Would pulling back to my own base have been the right thing to do? Or set up a contain outside his base? Take the second gas and quick tech to mutas? Expand to my natural? Any help would be appreciated. | ||
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tieya
United States308 Posts
whenever its close positions and i feel like using it i am def going to use it more in my play. its a great strat, good job | ||
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Ekko
United States72 Posts
On October 04 2010 03:40 The Touch wrote: So I have a quick question, and it may be more general but since I was going for a 6RR I'm going to post it here just in case there's anything build-specific that somebody can add. So I'm in the silver league, I'm new to zerg, and I generally suck, but I've been having success with this build and I really like the fact that it's early aggression without being all-in. But I just encountered a situation for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Here's the replay. I rushed with my usual timings (I've read people in this thread saying they're getting the roaches out before or just after 5 minutes - but this is the best I've managed), and built my customary in-base hatch instead of expanding. I took out a supply depot (which, in the replay, actually caused the terran to be supply blocked), but he had a bunker at the choke. In my infinite wisdom, I blindly threw my followup lings against it and lost 1000 resources worth of units, which really hurt me and eventually he pushed out with marine/marauder/hellion and crushed me. My question is what would have been more sensible than suiciding my lings in that situation? I knew the bunker was there. I knew it was risky, but I thought I might be able to break through. I was wrong. Would pulling back to my own base have been the right thing to do? Or set up a contain outside his base? Take the second gas and quick tech to mutas? Expand to my natural? Any help would be appreciated. I can't watch the replay right now but first of all I'm not sure where the bunker was placed, of you could get around it to get to the scv's that would but my first choice in that situation. He will either try and micro his units out of the bunker to save scvs or try and take out the lings with scvs which is a win either way for you. If you can't get past the bunker and were able to kill the supply depot I would do pretty much what you said, i'd drone and expand to my natural, with the thought of going mutas and leave your lings outside his base. I'd try and scout with an overlord to see what hes going at about a minute past the first push, terran seem to respond to aggression with mass aggression. If your safe get mutas if not get roaches/lings to prep for the counter push, or just lings, or blings even static d if needed. About the time he counter pushes and you clean it up mutas should be hatching and you should be able to finish off the game. Or contain tell he runs out of minerals (I hate doing this) | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
On October 04 2010 03:40 The Touch wrote: Ouch. That roach attack really didn;t go well. Firstly, you didn;t micro them correctly. You only had 3 attacking the depot at a time, rather than all 5. Don't just right click on the depot. Run up the ramp so you're basically next to it. it'll allow all your roaches to attack the depot, instead of 3 attacking and the two at the back running around aimlessly because they aren;t in range. You need to be more active with your first set of lings too. They just sat at the top of your ramp until you moved out. use them to scout. check the wall to see if anything's changed. There was also a LOT of units at the top of his wall. It meant that even though your roaches killed the depot the lings just got mowed down (and you made them engage in a choke). You want at least 2 roaches still alive when the lings enter (since they'll help draw the fire off your lings). Personally i'd have aborted the attack and not suicided the lings in. His sim city looks like it might have made a proper bust in pretty annoying to deal with too, as it forces your units through a narrow choke made by the buildings in order to reach the mineral line. Also when scouting with your first pair of lings and you check the ramp to see what's going on make sure to take note of building placement. Especially against terrans where if they can funnel your units about while being able to take shots as they move. Bad building layout = abort. 2 marauders = think about aborting (if few marines then continue. if lots of marines abort). Just show him the roaches and then back off. It'll make him schew his unit comp into being more marauder heavy. Also if you decide to abort early enough you can usually do drones instead of the first reinforcement ling wave and then get lings later on for defence. Also make sure to get a 2nd queen if you abort, since you can never be 100% sure they aren't plotting some bancheese Don't waste units needlessly. I had a game earlier where he pulled scvs peremtively to the ramp before my roaches even began moving up the ramp. I'd have taken needless casualties so i aborted and pulled back without losing any units. the result being that i had an army already partially built to use for map control and then to kill off his army when it moved out. Short version: Don't lose units unless the damage to the enemy is equivelant or greater (such as wiping out scvs or whatever) I also disagree with the in-base hatch. You tried to go for mutalisks but had only 1 base worth of gas. Personally i don't make any more roaches aside from the first set unless i really need too. They eat into gas needed for mutas/infestors (which you need to survive) and use a lot of supply up. Drop an evo chamber and get a quick +1 attack while pumping speedlings (after you have enough drones). then get mutas or infestors (i personally prefer infestors, but that's just my preference). about 40+ lings with +1attack and some infestors can handle the initial push well and then you can backtech for mutas (since you onyl need about 4-5 infestors and then gas starts stacking up) to mutilate his base. TLDR version: - Scout the enemy ramp before commiting to the push (usually the roaches are already being made, but you can decide to drone instead of make the followup lings if things look bad). - Don't suicide units unless they do enough damage to justify the cost. - Get an expo rather than in base hatch since you'll need the gas once you hit lair. - +1speedlings do fine as an army as long as you make enough, which lets you conserve gas for lair tech rather than pumping more roaches. - Be proactive in scouting the map | ||
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The Touch
United Kingdom667 Posts
The in-base hatchery I'm really liking, at least at silver league level. It's mostly for the extra larva, since I'm not yet even close to saturation in the main. With that in mind, I figure I may as well make it easier to defend by having both my queens and army right there. Usually I seem to get a proper expo around the time the lair finishes, but it often depends on whether I remember to do it (remember, silver league). I was trying to expand and take the 3rd and 4th gas, but it got killed. I wasn't trying to make 1-base muta my strategy. I'll definitely try to work on scouting with the first lings and, y'know, not just attack moving my lings and then ignoring them :p | ||
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Uhh Negative
United States1090 Posts
You have it in Pros and Cons and it's an obvious Pro. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
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nanoscorp
United States1237 Posts
 Saw it in a replay, seems like a good tactic to me. Only works with certain geometries now, but increased roach range should help in the future. Thoughts? | ||
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nicke10
Sweden114 Posts
On October 08 2010 04:50 nanoscorp wrote: In ZvT if you're hitting a depot and a bunch of SCVs come up to repair, you can just pop the SCVs. It's like he's bringing his mineral line out to you Saw it in a replay, seems like a good tactic to me. Only works with certain geometries now, but increased roach range should help in the future. Thoughts?Where did you read about roach range getting increased? | ||
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ckw
United States1018 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:08 nicke10 wrote: Where did you read about roach range getting increased? Blizzard released their planned patch changes and Roach is getting range increase, Terran has to make supply depot before Barracks. Reaper is nerfed again and Zerg buildings are getting more HP. | ||
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VandenPlause
United States37 Posts
We're increasing roach range. This will allow roaches to be more effective in large groups, giving the zerg more options in the mid to end game. | ||
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k43r
Poland112 Posts
On October 08 2010 07:08 nicke10 wrote: Where did you read about roach range getting increased? Battle.net information, if you log you'll find it. | ||
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chocopan
Japan986 Posts
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
On October 08 2010 08:28 chocopan wrote: Anyone want to speculate on how the roach range increase will affect the whole 5RR thing? Yea this is the new baneling bust now. Its good tho, Z now has 2 options to punish a greedy T (baneling and 5RR), and at least the 5RR is easy to transition out of. On October 04 2010 03:40 The Touch wrote: So I have a quick question, and it may be more general but since I was going for a 6RR I'm going to post it here just in case there's anything build-specific that somebody can add. So I'm in the silver league, I'm new to zerg, and I generally suck, but I've been having success with this build and I really like the fact that it's early aggression without being all-in. But I just encountered a situation for the first time and didn't know how to handle it. Here's the replay. I rushed with my usual timings (I've read people in this thread saying they're getting the roaches out before or just after 5 minutes - but this is the best I've managed), and built my customary in-base hatch instead of expanding. I took out a supply depot (which, in the replay, actually caused the terran to be supply blocked), but he had a bunker at the choke. In my infinite wisdom, I blindly threw my followup lings against it and lost 1000 resources worth of units, which really hurt me and eventually he pushed out with marine/marauder/hellion and crushed me. My question is what would have been more sensible than suiciding my lings in that situation? I knew the bunker was there. I knew it was risky, but I thought I might be able to break through. I was wrong. Would pulling back to my own base have been the right thing to do? Or set up a contain outside his base? Take the second gas and quick tech to mutas? Expand to my natural? Any help would be appreciated. Well, the hatch should really go at your expo. Theres really no purpose for it in your base... Also, you should have retreated as soon as you saw marauds and a bunker and jsut droned up, keeping lings and roaches alive. Then transition into a normal midgame, the difference being that you have slightly less economy than you normally would have. EDIT: Oops, double post. | ||
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RampancyTW
United States577 Posts
On October 08 2010 08:28 chocopan wrote: It will make punishing a Terran wall-off much easier. Roaches will be able to challenge a factory/rax wall-in at the bottom of the ramp without being hit. It will make roaches less vulnerable vs. the wall in general, since T will have more difficulty keeping his marines out of roach attack range. Ditto for Marauders. It turns this into a solid early push instead of something that's immediately shut down by a marauder or two without a bunker.Anyone want to speculate on how the roach range increase will affect the whole 5RR thing? On the P side of things, it will make it easier to snipe off zealots and pylons at the tops using overlord sight. It lets more roaches shoot at once as they move up the ramp. It will make it more difficult for protoss to stall with a couple kiting stalkers. DEFINITELY a huge boost to the 5RR. | ||
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morimacil
France921 Posts
On September 28 2010 12:58 TigerWoodsPutt wrote: against terran, an "anti scouting mechanism" doesn't exist because of scans. if you wait to build a roach warren and not build lings, that makes you extremely vulnerable. it's nice to wait until the SCV dies, but that can take a really long time. and again, hiding your tech is not really an option because of scans. Hiding your tech is an option even though the terran has scans. Terran players do not usually scan straight when their scouting SCV dies. In fact, I have never seen anyone do it. So just because its possible for him to do it doesnt mean that he will. Waiting for the SCV to die to make the roach warren doesnt really make you "extremely vulnerable" to much. Unless its something like an unscouted 7 proxyrax, you are pretty safe, and even if it is that, you should still be fine. If in the long run terran does end up scanning zerg all the time after the SCV dies, simply because of the possibility of the 5RR, then that would quite honestly be awesome for all zerg games. | ||
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cosmo.6792
161 Posts
Here's the fatal flaw in this opener: A Protoss opponent will not need to see the roach warren to know exactly what the Zerg is up to. As soon as the gas goes down at supply 13, he'll know roaches are coming. After all, why else would a Zerg get gas so early in ZvP? Banelings? Not against Protoss. Speedlings? Against Terrans maybe. Early speedlings are often the preferred method of fending off early reapers. But against Protoss, there is no urgency to get speedlings so early. Certainly not at supply 13. Typical Zerg in ZvP will wait until Supply 15 to get gas. Or maybe even after the fast expansion. But gas at Supply 13 raises red flags. It's a sure sign that the Zerg is attempting an early attack off of one base. And gas at 13 could only mean it's roaches. IMHO, there really is no other possibility, not in ZvP at least. | ||
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Fretbored
6 Posts
I can usually get the roaches out by 5:07 which isn't so bad, I suppose, but my question is: when do I put the drones back on gas? Also, when do I get all the other gas nodes on my main and expansion? If anyone answers my questions, do these timings on gas apply to just this build or to all zerg BO's in general? Lastly, I noticed that Newti gets his 10th food drone at about 75minerals instead of just getting it at the 50 miineral mark. Does this make difference? Sorry for all the noob questions. I just have tons of things to improve and it's making my head hurt. Thank you for your time. | ||
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