EPT[G] 5 Roach Rush: early game without the all-in - Page 34
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XXXSmOke
United States1333 Posts
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
Might see more fast forge+cannon play actually, since a lot of toss seem to be worried about being 6pooled. That might set us back a little as 5RR doesn't deal with cannons very well (though since they'd be doing forge+cannon first it might set them back a little too). Ah well, all just speculation at this point since i haven't been able to play today. I'm hoping there won't be cannons about as they make my roaches all sadface | ||
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DaemonX
545 Posts
Why is it borderline all in, when in my replays I see that he has a temporarily boosted income (4-6 workers ahead for 2-3 minutes), and when you build your cycle of drones if you don't insta-win, you equalise in worker count AND have an expo up? And if he doesn't push, you can often even get another cycle of drones in and streak ahead, since you have 5 roaches and12 lings as a seed for a solid defense force when you see him push. Where's the massive eco hit? The only builds that CRUSH it economically are so slow that they die instantly to the 5RR. (NB this is assuming you are applying judgement and aren;t trying it on Desert Oasis. This is a rush build and works on rush maps or close positions only) | ||
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Shikyo
Finland33997 Posts
Any experience about getting held off by 15-16cc? | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
Your wall might help you survive i guess, if you have the expo cc and rax as part of it (with the bunker and other marines behind it). basicaly make your wall baneling-proof (eg build wall with bigger buildings than depots/bunkers) and it should ward the roaching zerg away. A full bunker + 2 marines outside will inflict enough casualties to prevent the roaches from busting in if your wall is properly made. If you lack marauders to scare off roaches then your sim city is even more important. solid walls aren't cost effective for us to break down. You could always float the cc off later once you're expo is actually secure. | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 24 2010 01:05 Uranium wrote: Uhh OP at what time (in-game time) do you start making your 5 roaches? I have a 11 pool 10 gas 6roach rush that starts producing 6 roaches at 4:50 (in match history/build order time). I'm just wondering if yours is faster or slower. They pop before 5:10 with the build well executed as I recall so yes, they are faster. | ||
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Uranium
United States1077 Posts
On September 24 2010 01:46 Sixes wrote: They pop before 5:10 with the build well executed as I recall so yes, they are faster. Makes sense, I was thinking an 11 pool might be too early for Roach production since they are 2x as expensive as lings. I'm gonna have to try out the 13 pool build tonight. 20 seconds earlier on the roaches could make a HUUUUGE difference. Agh I'm so excited!! | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
On September 24 2010 02:12 Uranium wrote: Makes sense, I was thinking an 11 pool might be too early for Roach production since they are 2x as expensive as lings. I'm gonna have to try out the 13 pool build tonight. 20 seconds earlier on the roaches could make a HUUUUGE difference. Agh I'm so excited!! This is basically all-in for 20 seconds. It could be much more effective but better hope that isn't a forge toss or a marauder terran waiting for you to suicide your all-in roaches. Lol I tried this on desert oasis and got horribly countered by void rays catching my roaches in the middle of the map. This is the 2nd time I've lost to protoss with this build in about 25 games, but I'm also in ~850 diamond now so my opponents are smarter =[ can't expect this build to work forever i suppose. Even on a small map I got hard countered by void ray rush once before, how do you transition once you see VR? basically those roaches are dead and you get set pretty far behind when this happens, how do you recover? | ||
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GeminiOne
Germany87 Posts
I am at high Platinum and here are two replays vs Protoss: In the first game I encountered a toss who went for 2 gate opening and 5 zealot rush. My roaches popped before he even was in my main. This game was on Blistering Sands. So I defended his rush and he had to retreat. I made my counterpush through the backdoor rocks with the roaches and had speedlings rallied to his main. He already had a stargate up but I got him with his pants down and took the game: http://sc2.replayers.com/download-4043 The second game was on Xel Naga Caverns and there I encountered a protoss who was going a kinda 3 gate robo into expand build. I couldn't break his wall with the initial 5 roach push and had to retreat after loosing a couple of roaches in the damn forcefields. Got behind in economy then because I had already produced a lot of lings, just for the case I would have been able to break through his wall. This wasn't the case so I got my expo up running quite ok-ish and immidiately teched to lair and then Hydras. I started a second push with hydra+roach and was crushed by forcefields but I managed to take out his first collosus. Then I switched to Mutas and kept harrasing him getting a lot of probe kills. I finally attacked with a superior army after taking the gold expo and crushed his expo and forces. Kinda back and forth game with a nice quick counter attack by speedlings killing a lot of his probes in his main after he was pushing to my first expo with mass zealots and some sentries: http://sc2.replayers.com/download-4044 edit: these are post 1.1 games | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
On September 25 2010 14:45 kmillz wrote: This is basically all-in for 20 seconds. It could be much more effective but better hope that isn't a forge toss or a marauder terran waiting for you to suicide your all-in roaches. Lol I tried this on desert oasis and got horribly countered by void rays catching my roaches in the middle of the map. This is the 2nd time I've lost to protoss with this build in about 25 games, but I'm also in ~850 diamond now so my opponents are smarter =[ can't expect this build to work forever i suppose. Even on a small map I got hard countered by void ray rush once before, how do you transition once you see VR? basically those roaches are dead and you get set pretty far behind when this happens, how do you recover? DO is probably one of the worst maps for it due to the insanely looooooooooooooooooooooooong ground distance (so roaches get to the wall later and reinforcements take longer to arrive). Not sure what you mean about void ray rushers beating you. The void (if they're rushing it) should be out shortly after you break into his base. Once you spot it grab a 2nd queen asap (if you haven't already) and pop down an evo chamber soe you can get spores. He'll have to make a choice at this point. Use the void to kill your ground forces and save his base, or leave his base to it's fate and try a base trade. if he decides to stay and fight just focus on crippling his econ and production. This is also essentially a free win since it buys you time to get the 2nd queen out, as well as spores (not to mention his econ is in tatters so you can outmacro him later). so in responce to the question, you transition by getting 2nd queen (and maybe spores) for anti-air, pump some drones and tech up then crush him with macro since he'll have been crippled by your initial attack. don't worry about the roaches and lings dying. as long as they inflict damage to econ you'll be ahead. If he goes for a base race you should be able to kill off his remaining buildines before he kills your base. If it seems like he might be able to do it (queens are dead, he's buring your hatch, etc) then send your drones about the .map and spam extractors so you have buildings up to buy time for your forces to crush his remaining buildings. Because zerg bases are smaller than toss ones, it doesn't take much time to actually kill all buildings, hence why random extractors about the map can buy you the time needed to finish his base off. | ||
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Cwall
United States64 Posts
Tried the 5 Roach Rush strategy for the first time today in a ZvT matchup on Metalopolis The rush failed, as the Terran player already had a siege tank out when my roaches arrived at his base. I decided to tech to mutalisks and harass, in which he responded with marines + thors. I managed to tech to ultralisks and pump several of them out right as he pushed onto my natural, sealing the win for me. I'll admit that I did make several mistakes, such as the supply cap right before my roaches were supposed to go out, a lack of spreading creep at one point, probable BO screwups, etc. I wanted to provide this replay for any other players interested in trying this build, and also a way to show the build transitioning to other things when the rush goes wrong. I do not claim to be a good player at all, but merely one trying to work my way there. I also post this in hopes of a player who knows what he/she is talking about to comment on my early game(mainly, whether or not I made any glaring mistakes in my BO that I have yet to realize, or any tricks/strategies I may want to employ in the future). Replay: http://sc2.replayers.com/download-4092 Thanks in advance. | ||
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kmillz
United States1548 Posts
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Subversion
South Africa3627 Posts
only really works when they go very specific builds. I only use it vs protoss now, but man it works like a charm. | ||
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Sixes
Canada1123 Posts
On September 27 2010 10:42 kmillz wrote: Does anyone else think the patch kinda killed 5RR vs protoss? Of course it would be even more effective VS 2-gate now but the problem is after the nerf I have not seen ANY 2-gate openings. If you aren't seeing any 2 gates it means you can 14 pool 16 hatch or even go hatch first. Get your econ up, get roaches and lings and whatever else you want to counter a 4 gate when you have double the econ. This strategy is decent to transition into on spotting a 2 gate because a) it opens similarly to a speedling into 20-21 expand, b) gets roaches out just at the right time to end the 2 gate and c) the econ hit you take is compensated for by the protoss 2 gate being somewhat econ light (and slow tech so the lair delay doesn't matter as much). If you can get away with it though go hatch first or 14-16 and get your drones up and running (and try to avoid the protoss expanding if possible). | ||
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Karthane
United States1183 Posts
On September 27 2010 10:52 Subversion wrote: I find this build not great vs higher level terrans. only really works when they go very specific builds. I only use it vs protoss now, but man it works like a charm. Very true, this works well against protoss, and i usually win if they dont have a sentry. But against terran, even if i manage to get through the wall i barely ever do real damage | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
What i like about this build vs toss is that it's safe vs 2gate and really hurts fast tech builds (like fast stargate/robo/council). It isn't countered by a sentry either. You can just wait out the first forcefield and then bust in. it's when they have 2+ that it's best to abort and use the army for a contain. My favourite though is when they go fast phoenix. it makes me smile so much :D Against terrans i've had mixed success. Sometimes it works great, other times it fails spectacularly (which is why now i'm starting to 9scout to see what i'm up against and then either 5RR or fast expand and tech quick to infestors). Still not sure how this build is vs zerg. I wouldn;t mind watching some reps if people have them so i can see how it'd work. personally i go overpool into proxy crawlers if they pool late or for early lings for defence if they pool early. @Cwall I watched the first bit of the replay. The major problem i saw was that he scouted the warren. If they spot the warren it's better to abort. Then also when your roaches did arrive you attacked the marines behind the wall rather than one of the depots (lower left depot would have been the best). Speedlings can handle the tank if you can get past the wall. However i'm not sure if the 5 roaches would be able to bust down the wall or not with a tank shooting them (since tank dps vs armoured is still pretty decent even when not sieged. usually when they've gone fast tank i've already broken the wall and have lings inside before the tank pops). Against toss you can sometimes still pull it off even if you're roaches are late due to supply block, but vs terran every second counts. On the larger maps where the roaches have to run miles and miles it might not be worth it to 5RR vs terran  | ||
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Cwall
United States64 Posts
On September 27 2010 20:51 Undercroft wrote: @Cwall I watched the first bit of the replay. The major problem i saw was that he scouted the warren. If they spot the warren it's better to abort. Then also when your roaches did arrive you attacked the marines behind the wall rather than one of the depots (lower left depot would have been the best). Speedlings can handle the tank if you can get past the wall. However i'm not sure if the 5 roaches would be able to bust down the wall or not with a tank shooting them (since tank dps vs armoured is still pretty decent even when not sieged. usually when they've gone fast tank i've already broken the wall and have lings inside before the tank pops). Against toss you can sometimes still pull it off even if you're roaches are late due to supply block, but vs terran every second counts. On the larger maps where the roaches have to run miles and miles it might not be worth it to 5RR vs terran Thanks for the advice. I suppose when I first tried the build, I hadn't realized that the main purpose of the roaches was for them to bust the wall down for the lings to get in. | ||
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Undercroft
United Kingdom166 Posts
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TymerA
Netherlands759 Posts
On September 28 2010 00:00 Cwall wrote: Thanks for the advice. I suppose when I first tried the build, I hadn't realized that the main purpose of the roaches was for them to bust the wall down for the lings to get in. I sometimes even delay my warren because if it gets scouted it can mess up everything, vs P that is. T might see it as preperations vs reapers. | ||
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