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On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:
So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player.
Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent.
How'd you do in that recent tournament?
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Very good build
Works very good for me, not 100% success - but nowdays it's one of the only zerg builds that let's stay in control at least for a while.
GJ OP.
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On September 21 2010 10:10 Silent_Tao wrote:
Very good build
Works very good for me, not 100% success - but nowdays it's one of the only zerg builds that let's stay in control at least for a while.
GJ OP.
What do you do in my example where a Toss 4-gates and you don't know he is stalker heavy until you get to his base or vice versa?
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i'm pretty sure this is the build the Very Hard Zerg AI does every game (vP). It's pretty easy to stop with an immortal and sentry.
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On September 21 2010 09:56 OdinPimphammer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:
So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player. Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent. How'd you do in that recent tournament?
At his level, yes you do have to be 1500 to be competent. I don't see any reason for him to start trying silly roach all in's that 1000 diamonds (which are probably equivalent to D/D+) are raving about. There's a reason no one is using it in tournaments; it probably doesn't work.
It's horrendously weak against any type of stalker or marauder play. It's weak to reapers since after the first reaper scouts the roach warren, marauders come out very soon. I only see this beating players that don't scout and blindly get mass zealots.
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On September 21 2010 09:56 OdinPimphammer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:
So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player. Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent. How'd you do in that recent tournament?
Honestly, an expansion after 30 for a Zerg is pretty much disastrous against any competent opponent.
I just feel that this build doesn't live up to all the hype. It's a solid timing attack that might work to change the meta-game but it really doesn't have much staying power once Ts and Ps learn how to fight it off, just like how Zergs learned to fight off hellion openings.
15 hatch 14 pool is the way to go, srsly.
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On September 21 2010 09:56 OdinPimphammer wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 08:15 DarKFoRcE wrote:
So many people keep bugging me about the 5RR on my stream. I personally think that its pretty much an allin, as you are pretty far behind in economy if you fail to do alot of damage (and no, placing a hatch while moving out doesnt make this much better). And as Terran and Protoss usually have a wallin i dont see how this is supposed to work against a competent player. Maybe you should try it first, Almighty One? 33 pages of people saying how well it works, even against wall-offs, but I understand, any expansion after 30 is just noob to you and not worth your 8 hour a day of streaming time, huh? I guess you have to be 1500+ diamond to be considered competent. How'd you do in that recent tournament?
Wow rofl.
This build is good until you get past the mediocre P's and T's that don't play stupid (i.e. responding to roach warren with marauders and a bunker as T, and making 1 (one) sentry as P). Then you end up with a later expansion than a speedling expand (let's not get into hatch first or pool/hatch) and an equivalent amount of map control for a greater investment :/
Granted, it's not really an allin as he says IMO, but it does put you considerably behind.
This comes from a zerg who HAS tried it before, btw.
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So far this build has been great. I do not expect it to "carry" me through the higher leagues, but it is a great way to get micro/macro practice, especially if the initial rush fails and you get a chance to play on two or three bases.
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15 hatch, 14 pool is OBVIOUSLY NOT the way to go as any noob can see by the results that Zerg has been getting in EVERY tournament since release.
Your "Pro" idea doesn't work, so how about try something new? Nah, that would be stupid, right?
Every P and T player can do whatever they want early game and abuse the shit out of it to beat Zerg, being greedy with tech, FEing, dropping pylons in our base, eating our drones with hellions , the list goes on and on. Nowadays you have P and T doing absurd stuff to Zerg, like fast Thor rushing and then dropping them in your mineral lines, rushing to banshees and raping your soul. The list goes on and on because they know they will never get pressured early by top level Zergs.
Maybe you are right, but I havent seen anyone even try to make it work at that level on any replays or streams.
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On September 21 2010 09:06 KandLeMaN wrote:
Inevitably, I tried it again my next match vs. a Toss and got absolutely raped by a 4-gate 90% stalker army. He didn't scout my R Warren, so he must have just been going stalker anyway, but 7 minutes in he had 9 stalkers and just raped me.
If you nail the timings properly, there is no way the Protoss should have that many stalkers by the time you reach their wall. If you do see them massing stalkers, however, you'll want to pull your roaches back, mass speedlings, and lay down 3-4 spine crawlers at your expansion. Even though you did not deal the damage you wanted, it is better to conserve your army and protect your expansion than suicide your roaches.
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On September 21 2010 11:18 Mindspider wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2010 09:06 KandLeMaN wrote:
Inevitably, I tried it again my next match vs. a Toss and got absolutely raped by a 4-gate 90% stalker army. He didn't scout my R Warren, so he must have just been going stalker anyway, but 7 minutes in he had 9 stalkers and just raped me. If you nail the timings properly, there is no way the Protoss should have that many stalkers by the time you reach their wall. If you do see them massing stalkers, however, you'll want to pull your roaches back, mass speedlings, and lay down 3-4 spine crawlers at your expansion. Even though you did not deal the damage you wanted, it is better to conserve your army and protect your expansion than suicide your roaches.
Well I finished up my placement matches and now I'm all demoralized cuz I went 2-3 but got owned by that Stalker build and then by a terran MMM + Thors which I had no counter to. I attacked off creep and didn't fungal or NP which would have made a difference but damn bronze sucks 
I think I need to incorporate hydras into my army quicker and definitely tech to ultras. I have been using too many mutas/corruptors which work sometimes, and othertimes just get owned by stimmed marines + thors.
Ah well I can only go up from here.
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On September 05 2010 18:58 Nuage wrote:
That's why I have switched back to a classic 14 extractor, 14 pool build: to keep most options open.
That way, you can still go for fast roaches if you want to, with a minor delay - or do anything else, depending on your scouting.
14 Extractor
14 Pool
15 Overlord
16 Queen
18 Zerglings
around 20 / 21 Roach Warren (when Queen is halfway done, as usual)
Overlord when Queen pop
5 or 6 Roach when overlord, roach warren & inject finish
The roaches are out at 5'10, approximatly. I tend to research zergling speed just after I've done the roaches, but it can probably be done a bit soonner.
What I love with that build is that you retain the possibility of an early roach rush, but you are not bound to it, and you can change for the other zergs openers (say, sling / bling or fast expand) without any trouble nor delay.
I was actually just going to post this. I've been playing around with this using 14E/14P, which is pretty standard for zerg these days, and can lead into just about anything from this 5RR pressure to one-base mutas, and the timing is *very* close to what I'm seeing on the 13 pool/13 extractor replays, with 14e/14p being somewhere between 3 and 5 seconds behind 13p/13e.
I don't know why that's true, it seems it should be further behind than that, but that's what I'm measuring.
Being just a hair slower, while keeping all options wide open, not really giving anything at all away to your opponent's initial scout, and getting a slightly better economy to boot, makes 14e14p seem very attractive when doing this.
Also, just about every replay I've watched, people are putting the warren down too early. If you put it down when the queen is about 70-75% done, it pops up just in time, and you get an extra mineral trip or two from the drone building the warren.
A couple more advantages to extractor first:
Yu can start speed really fast (as soon as the pool is done, just like a standard speedling build), so any reinforcement lings will be getting to the front fast.
You can leave the workers in gas, for I think what will be a very nice transition into mutas, possibly even transitioning into a slightly slower 1base muta, although you could certainly throw down the expansion first. (more testing required here obviously)
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you guys say they scout the roach warren.
but every time i do this build, i don't allow them to scout. maybe you guys don't have enough points!!!
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I'm also confused by the prevalence of people saying that the roaches pop ~5:40. The roaches should be popping right after the 5 minute mark if you're doing this build properly.
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5:40 was from the original build. It's been refined really well since (and the OP has been edited to reflect that). Its much sooner than 540 now.
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On September 22 2010 21:53 JrK wrote:
5:40 was from the original build. It's been refined really well since (and the OP has been edited to reflect that). Its much sooner than 540 now.
One of the things i love about it. It's been tried and tested and slowly refined into the build it is now :D
I've found the build to be very effective on enemy toss going for fast phoenixes too. I don;t understand why people abort if they see a core go down. I personally see it as a good thing as it means high chance of teching from the toss
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Granted I'm just a mid diamond scrub but the only loss i've ever had with this build was in Z v Z. It's extremely effective vs Toss. Even if the toss goes stalker heavy you just use the extra round of larva to pump an extra lings.
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Figured out why I was only 3-ish seconds later with 14e14p. It's cause I wasn't actually doing 14e14p, but 14e13p. Still seems to be slightly more economic (with 13p13e I was slightly short on minerals unless all the timings were perfect, but wasn't ever close to being short with 14e13p), doesn't give anything away, and is still a good foundation for a wide variety of starts.
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This build will work incredibly well against players of a certain level. You'll likely win most games; however, once you get to the next level of opponents, you will lose and lose badly.
Borderline all-in...late expo...It might be best used as a surprise semi all-in in a BoX series. If you're Plat or low Diamond -- Roach away! Just realize that it might cripple your overall Z game in the future. I'd rather practice something else. You WILL get punished for this against good players.
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On September 23 2010 02:52 IPA wrote:
This build will work incredibly well against players of a certain level. You'll likely win most games; however, once you get to the next level of opponents, you will lose and lose badly.
Borderline all-in...late expo...It might be best used as a surprise semi all-in in a BoX series. If you're Plat or low Diamond -- Roach away! Just realize that it might cripple your overall Z game in the future. I'd rather practice something else. You WILL get punished for this against good players.
Can you post some replays of good players punishing you when you use this build?
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EPT
