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On August 12 2010 02:15 homegrown.vt wrote:
I think the term "timing push" is often misunderstood. Like Day9 says in one of his dailies (cant remember which) it is simply a well timed attack. One that occurs immediately after you get +1 attack qualifies as a timing push, not necessarily a timing push that revolves around a particularly devastating T2+ unit.
That being said, Zerg has access to almost no units which are particularly devastating by themselves. Our timing pushes revolve more around upgrades and the like. My personal favorite "timing push" involves simply throwing down an early gas (14gas then pool) and getting zergling speed ASAP. This is a pretty common opening obviously but your "timing push" should occur right after zling speed is done. I like to go take the tower closest to their base with slow lings in advance. Although there are obvious counters to a speedling push (read: blings, wall-in, zealots in hold position) you can often cause substantial damage as well as gain valuable scouting information. At the very least it keeps both sides on their toes.
Other examples of Zerg "timing pushes":
right after hydra range upgrade, roach speed, ~4-6 mutas are up etc etc.
The only thing misunderstood is the word and act of pushing a slow army across the map, used most commonly (as someone on page one said), when a terran unsieges/sieges and builds turrets, depots, lays spider mines down.
I don't know what started the bastardization of SC terminology, but I personally like to blame HD and Husky, simply for their mass appeal. And I have heard them use it wrong on many occasions.
Taking a hellion or vulture and harassing is not a push. Its harass. Attacking during a certain window (like right before mutalisks pop in SC1) is a timing attack, not a push.
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a decent time for a timing attack would be once you have a small number of a critical tech unit or an upgrade for that unit, lets set some examples here. setting up a minor contain with lings and banelings in mind, if you have a lair you might want to try and get bling speed before pushing in, this also gives you a bit more time to build up a force. or +1 attack on mutas is a favorite of mine if you think you can hold out long enough. once your spire starts upgrade +1 attack on mutas and spend the rest of your money on building mutalisks, by the time it finishes you should have enough mutas to murder most defenses. a +1 attack upgrade on roaches is a good timing attack in a zvz because then roaches will 2 shot lings instead of 3 shot them, this is stronger in maps with lots of chokes, if its a more open map the +1 carapace upgrade is more useful against lings. roach speed against protoss is also a great time to do a timing attack, with speed roaches do much better against stalkers and can kite zealots forever. obviously the baneling bust is a decent timing attack against terran.
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So the difference between a push and an attack is if your in siege mode or not? If you lay mines or dont lay mines?
The difference isnt really usefull... Its assumed, if you attack with tanks and vultues, you siege and mine..
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Language is as language does. It sounds like "push" previously had a distinct definition separate from attack, but if the differentiation is not common in the community, its defunct. In order for a word to have the meaning you think it has, someone else has to be able to understand what you're talking about.
There is no 'fault' to be assigned for language changing. Languages live and breath according to the needs of the community that use them. If push wasn't holding its meaning its because its meaning wasn't important enough to deserve a unique word anymore.
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Definition of a timing push is literally an attack of some sort that strikes during a comparably vulnerable period of a particular race, dependent on build.
Baneling bust seems like one, but that's just a generic term to describe something a lot more complex. The reason Dimaga does a lot of these is because they oftentimes work against particular builds or kinds of wall-ins. It's not something that always works, and neither are other "timing pushes".
If you want an example of others, there's a particular timing after you break a 3-rax reaper contain that, depending on distance, where the Terran army isn't very large because of the time devoted to making the containing reapers. In some cases the zerg production capacity is enough to overwhelm the defenders to some degree, sometimes leading to a win.
Another example would be "whenever you get ultralisks" or "whenever you get broodlords". The 1-hatch muta, 2-hatch muta, and 3-hatch muta all behave in a different fashion but are each their own little timing pushes. I'd imagine that hydra production from 3 bases has a timing push against T sometimes.
There's innumerable others against Z P and T, just try one and find out.
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On August 11 2010 05:29 Zoltan wrote:This is such a nice change of pace from all the "zerg sucks" threads: Have you tried OL roach / ling drop timing push? It really is only useful on a few maps (LT, Metalopolis...) but get t2 get ol drop + ol speed simultaneously and use what you have to drop on them. Might not be a "timing push" but its the closest thing i know without it being a baneling bust... my zerg knowledge is fairly limited so im just going on whats used against me. P.S. The only true timing pushes used against me as a T are bling bust and nydus. Never a early t2 drop, which i think would work wonders at ruining my econ. P.P.S I really shouldnt help zergs they beat me way too often anyway at t3 
OL drops take too long for an effective timing push imo. In this push we're talking speedling/roach speedling or something like that. The build is too gas heavy for it to come before T or P can macro up a large army unless you make it pretty all in-ish. 25 gas per roach, 100 for speedlings (optional i guess if you wanna go all roach), 100 for lair, 300 gas for drop and speed, and another 100 if you want to get Roach Speed (necessary v. protoss imo). If you were on one base you would have to do the two overlord upgrades consecutively. If you are on two base (for the gas and concurrent upgrades) it would take too long to get the mins necessary to macro up roaches and saturate base two.
With all the time it takes to do all this tech, etc, its probably better to wait for P/T to attack and then counter-drop.
Edit: Steven Bonnell III (sp?) streams zerg on TL - he is the only player who I watch who is consistently effective with one-base roach, and can transition into a macro game out of his roach opener. He often gets a second gas early, goes relatively fast lair (roaches steal some of the gas), and tends to get roach speed and carapace upgrade asap.
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I do fast roach vs P on small maps, to get away from macro heavy games.
13 pool,
12 gas,
drones to 14/15 still working that out overlord
15 queen
17-20/21 ling, make sure you kill his probe before u build roach warren
Queen comes out u make 2-3 roaches + overlord, wait for first injection to finish make 4 more roaches once they out move out with 6-7 roaches 8-10 lings. Works well vs most mid lvl diamond players. To be honest it is a bit slow, but killing his probe before placing roach warren is key. Sometimes i ever start lair upgrade right before i kill his probe and then cancel it OR place FE if his probe is outthere, sure it costs you but misderecting him is more important.
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On August 12 2010 02:56 gmerc wrote:
So the difference between a push and an attack is if your in siege mode or not? If you lay mines or dont lay mines?
The difference isnt really usefull... Its assumed, if you attack with tanks and vultues, you siege and mine..
No, the push describes leapfrogging out, not attacking. aka a 2fact would be a timing attack, not a push. A push is where you slowly gain ground, slowly "pushing" outwards from where the enemy is trying to keep you contained. Almost exclusive to TvP in SC1. For example, if you merely A move with your units you'll get steamrolled, so you move out slowly, forcing/pushing to gain ground.
Think of a push as any situation where you are moving out and trying to gain contested ground.
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A push is either when you push your army forward( ie. moving slowly forward to gain ground) and it can also be pushing you opponent back by attacking thier front(and hence gaining groud), while forcing them back by attacking bases etc goes under the defenition of harass.
And there fore a timed offensive moves can and often do fit the defenitions of timed attack and push. And a harass is also an attack which can be timed... And so on.
OT:
You all seem to be hung up on that the only attacks that can take place are timed ones. There is in my opinion three different offences, with variations of them ofc, front attack, harass and when you attack with the intent to provoke a counter attack.
You can try to attack with a part of your army to do specific dmg to a strategic building or unit or to open up a hole on another front. And in this manner zerg is so agile when using creep to thier advantage and can then be agressive.
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On August 12 2010 00:11 Andtwo wrote:
Never seen Dimaga make an attack before 200 food? really? Really? Did you see the kotb tourney where he decided he needed to 1 base roach or bling bust every game?
In ZvP I've noticed there's a window open if they FE where you can have hydras out before they get one of their anti hydra units out that you can sometimes push in with like 1/1 or +1 and enough hydras to do a lot of damage/take them out. The only problem if you have to be ready to transition quickly afterwards.
In ZvT there's sometimes a window open after the initial harass if they expo where you can do a roach attack. In general if you commit a lot to an early attack on terran before they have one of everything you can do ok. There was a d9d a few days ago that showed this with madfrog I think...
I believe the OP was looking for mid-game timing attacks based around certain unit compositions or upgrades. The Bling bust that players use is not, in my opinion, a typical timing attack because you're not really waiting for anything. Once you can make banelings, you attempt to bust their main. Also, it is very difficult to recover from a failed bust. What I have not seen players do is Bling contain where you create a minimum number of slings and blings to prevent an expansion while teching to either hydras or mutas.
I agree that 1-base roach is a possibility (one that has been mentioned on this thread several times) but one I have not been able to execute to perfection. In my mind, this would transition naturally to hydras since the upgrades have significant overlap.
Most of my timing attacks have involved tier 3 units like the ultralisk or broodlord.
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![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-137987.jpg)
This was a low diamond level game i believe not sure was a while ago so Here i use burrow for a bit of a counter but if exucted properly u can be really agressive with burrow here is one possiblilty that comes to mind of a possible timing attack for zerg
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after reading several (too many posts) i will not bother justifying my point of view or opinions-
safe to say i disagree with the consensus
instead i will write things and you will like them or not.
have several tiers of offense, each must have a point. 3 rax is to stim and smash down your pylon
4gate walks right up your ramp. 6 pool~ well 6pool. contrary to belief they do exist for zerg. some examples
speedlings the negative counter 4gates and 3rax (how you can't 4gate or expand because his lings will be in your workers first)
1 infestor 4 baneling drops - no upgrades for either needed
mutalisks / mutaling - 1 or two mutas can be vastly less expensive than anything else that will win the the game that fast - they're gross
infestor expo-snipe 16 infested terran=six infestors with 2/3s enertgy will WILL !!!!!!WILLLLLL!!!! kill a nexus
few broodlords early corrupters
broodlords in forcing position,
there are countless ways to use zerg forces to incapacitate your opponent, tweaking new ones is alwyas fun, but i strongly suggest finding a friend to drill against to improve your functional skill in certain things before you try them on ladder. - I use infested terrans as drop protection against terran (because a viking can't scare them off like an overlord (on LT's high ground)_) if you have never practiced it your chance of dominance is low. 3 or 4 times of knowing your opponent will drop as soon as he reasonably can and being ready to counter it perfectly will make you future scouting exponetially more valuable.
my point is zerg has the 1 hit kill tech strike- you can have a goal of 4burrofestors with energy and say that you whole plan is to snipe his natural and baneling drop if that doesn't work. never playing the wait for his waves of offense and countering
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Mmh I dont know Jagged but I really feel like if you want timing pushes you should try another race.
Zerg can probably timing push but I allways feel like reacting to what the opponent is doing is the only way to be really efficient. Against toss I must say that muta/ling seems to be the only thing that really works all the time and doesnt require too much reacting.
But in general reacting has worked best for me and as otheres mentioned attacking after having crushed a push seems most viable.
Maybe it is the power of the creep and spine crawlers that make defending and then going in for the attack so efficient?
Seems so to me.
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EPT
