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Been watching some pro replays lately, and I've noticed a somewhat newer (i think) strat which involves mass (really mass) marauders with the usual tank and viking backing them up. Now, I might be wrong here, but wasn't the tank/marine/viking the usual unit comp for TvT? The build I've been seeing is a usual 1/1/1 with a fast tank and vikings, but after a few tanks, the players drop a ton of tech lab rax and start massing marauders with a lot fewer tanks then usually seen in TvT (also medivacs from starports). I'm guessing it's because marauders are pretty good against tanks, but they obviously can't shoot up so viking count becomes even more important for anti-banshee and tank vision. In these builds nearly no marines are made except for the first one or two to kill the scout.
The best example is this replay between jinro and morrow, where they do the exact identical build (it's mindboggling how mirror it seems).
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1546
Another example is here (MorroW vs Strelok), notice how both players end up with 1 fac, 1 starport, and 3 rax with techlabs.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1569
I'll try to find the other replays I've seen as well.
So is this anything new, or am I just way behind on the times? If it is new, what do you think about it?
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The reasoning behind mass marauders is they do fairly well against tanks. Marines get raped pretty badly by tanks which every terran will have.
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The TvT matchup is getting really goofy. Examples:
- Mass marauder/tank is becoming popular simply because it is the strongest ground combination against tanks. This loses to viking/banshee in mass, but you don't have to worry about this, because everyone knows the other person won't go banshees because usually everyone goes vikings.
- Marines are actually really good against marauders. They beat them on a cost-by-cost basis, and can shoot up. Yet, nobody goes marines because everyone knows the other person may go tanks because everyone usually goes tanks.
TvT at a high level is based on perceptions of the matchup more than the units themselves.
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In one T v P replay, a T player kept hitting the wall with Thor as soft counter Void, and losing. His answer: More Thors, more vehicle dmg updrades, more Facts. It seems bewildering to dig oneself into a comfortable hole and stay there.
Maybe the new Marauders/Tanks tactic congeal at the pro-level is because they are easy to setup and manage. You bind raxes to a key, facts to another and start pressing the same buttons. The fact that you can round 12+ units into a single key (like SC 1's restrictive 12-unit-1-key rule) give everyone a lazy way to turn everything into a ball.
Soon enough, all T players will Simcity up the front gate because this would stop banelings while remaining easy to select and bind.
What I found disappointed in SC 2 is the lack of formation setting like Age of Empires (forgive my heretical take here). There should be a hotkey that instruct the ground forces to go "Oh Crap, Enemy tanks! Time to spread wide to avoid splash damages. But SC 2 is more about amassing into a bigger ball.
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TvT in SC2 is such a confusing matchup. The moment I see 1-2 banshees my usual reaction is to get turrets, some marines and vikings. The moment I do that, siege tanks appear at my front door and just shell my base to bits. On the other hand, if I go mass marauder to counter tanks my opponent just goes 5 banshees and rape my base. 
If everyone just starts going mass marauder in every single TvT game that would definitely make me a happier player.
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Have you notice that SC 2 is becoming more of a guessing game too? Everyone desperate looks to scouting, scouting, and more scouting as the be-all-end-all advice.
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It isn't a guessing game, don't post trash like that if you aren't going to back it up. There is a reason for why Terran's go mass marauder.
As simply as possible, marauders are very mobile and sturdy. In the early-mid game, tanks are trash against them unless you are playing defensively(at which point, marauders still have a timing to just run up and blast tanks one by one), which means the marauder player can take more expos.
If the tank/viking player opts to contain, all the marauder player has to do is counter drop while keeping his "defenders advantage." 3 tanks alike 5 marauders and a handful of scv will own a much larger number of tanks/vikings.
The strongest point of tank/viking/marauder is that the unit composition lets you have a strong defensive tank setup, and a mobile offensive marauder force. The whole "vikings let you see further" nonsense is ridiculous, because well timed scans, or running marauders in when your opponent moves his tanks will give you a pretty easy battle. The viking sight advantage rarely ever comes into play for me anymore.
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Terrans go mass marauder because it's fucking easy.
It's inferior to mech play on 90% of maps though. Tanks with upgrades tear through marauders so fast. People just don't know the timing windows nor have the mechanics to utilize pure mech strategies. Eventually the game will lean in that direction, I promise you.
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I play terran at around 400 diamond currently and better than a 2:1 W:L and I consider TvT to be my strongest matchup.
From what I've noticed is that many players will overkill on either vikings or tanks simply because they know that default tends to be vikings and tanks. I personally like to get enough tanks to not die while using marauders vikings and medivacs to take map control and force my opponent to do something other than siege up and sit.
True pure mech DOES beat marauders but pure mech does that to any ground army if already sieged. The problem comes if you get pushed early with MM before you get enough tanks OR if you simply lack the control and get out macro'd.
This isn't a discussion of whether my 200food MM army beats your 200 food mech army because straight up it doesn't. It's what it allows you to do.
Early map control
Mobility
Which you need to use to then levy a macro advantage to transition into a bigger better and more quickly re-macro'd mech army. This is similar to how zerg players beat terrans. They never attack you at the main, they just contain and expand and eventually you get overwhelmed if things go poorly.
TvT is about transition and while I ultimately agree that mech is likely the superior choice, it's really all about what control you can get early.
On 2 player maps I almost always 7 rax cheese transition into whatever I need. Sometimes it turns into 2 cloaked banshees, sometimes FE into 4 rax, sometimes viking tank, whatever. The point is that you want to give yourself the options, while limiting your opponent to fewer options.
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TvT is getting a lot more diverse lately but the problem with the matchup I think lies in the very early game. Because you have to pick your initial build very early, faster than you will usually be able to see what the other guy is going for. For example, you will have to start your marauder opener before you might be able to see if the other guy is going fast banshee. The fact that the different terran builds don't just fare differently against each other they massively hard counter each other it feels like the first ten minutes is just pure lottery.
If you go fast marauders and the other guy went tank/viking you won, if the other guy went banshee's though you lost, but if he went banshee and you went viking you won. And if you are halfway into getting fast marauders and you scout fast banshee it is usually too late to get out of it without crippling damage done to you anyway.
What I feel is really lacking in the matchup right now is balanced opening builds that won't make you loose in the blink of an eye if you drew the wrong card.
Btw, people saying that mech is superior if you have the mechanics are just wrong. Mech is superior in any given combat situation and generally stronger earlier on in the game. But the further you expand and the longer the game draws out the weaker it gets to aggressive marauders. The reason to go mass marauders in late midgame or lategame is because the meching player cannot possibly defend everything at once. Either he has to spread his forces in which case you will just funnel all your marauders in one spot and break through, or he will defend one or two spots and try to move his forces when attacked in which case you will just constantly attack wherever he is not defending, pulling back before you get counterpushed. Beyond 2 bases, mass marauders can pick a mech player apart sensor towers or no sensor towers.
The reason it won't turn into broodwar TvT over time is determined by the speed at which marauders can tear down buildings.
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I've never lost to mass marauder openings as Terran... I simply wall off my choke. There is no way a marauder push can defeat a well walled terran, especially if scouted with bunker. You can at least take your nat on most maps and then pump enough tanks to absolutely wreck mass marauder with well positiveness pushes (lots of depth to your tank line).
Sensor towers counter drops very well as well. Ever tried a slow tank push with sensor tower creeping? It can be pretty effective at keeping marauders from getting the jump on you.
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On August 09 2010 07:04 sikyon wrote:
I've never lost to mass marauder openings as Terran... I simply wall off my choke. There is no way a marauder push can defeat a well walled terran, especially if scouted with bunker. You can at least take your nat on most maps and then pump enough tanks to absolutely wreck mass marauder with well positiveness pushes (lots of depth to your tank line).
Sensor towers counter drops very well as well. Ever tried a slow tank push with sensor tower creeping? It can be pretty effective at keeping marauders from getting the jump on you.
Anything at the choke will get eaten up by marauders... I don't see how a wall helps in any way.
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On August 09 2010 07:04 sikyon wrote:
I've never lost to mass marauder openings as Terran... I simply wall off my choke.
Thats not true, Ive won a lot of tvts with a 4-5 marauder opening, using barracks for vision up the cliff. Marauders destroy bunkers v fast + free supply depots and barracks while you snipe tanks, get stim and reinforce.
Of course, if you see a starport with a tech lab, you probably want to hit it asap or be getting an eng bay lol
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On August 09 2010 07:04 sikyon wrote:
I've never lost to mass marauder openings as Terran... I simply wall off my choke. There is no way a marauder push can defeat a well walled terran, especially if scouted with bunker. You can at least take your nat on most maps and then pump enough tanks to absolutely wreck mass marauder with well positiveness pushes (lots of depth to your tank line).
Sensor towers counter drops very well as well. Ever tried a slow tank push with sensor tower creeping? It can be pretty effective at keeping marauders from getting the jump on you.
It's not even about the push. he can expand well before you. You have to at least wait for siege to finish. Before you can think about pushing you need quite a few tanks by which time he will have tanks himself so It'll be hard for you to get the econ advantage back. You don't really have enough tanks to spread out all over the middle to contain him. The best way to counter this is to contain him early imo. If you can get two bunker and two tanks up you're good to go and can probably even double expand if he has taken his expo. If not, fortify your contain, expand to your nat and scout for drops.
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Although some things that are quite important for marauder play.
You have to go marauder/thor. Just marauder obviously looses and vikings are a bad complement to marauders.
You can't actually open marauder/thor because there are a lot of intricate timing windows where you can just die really hard. It actually works very well to open tank/viking but not making more than a few tanks and two vikings. Just to stay alive for the very early game. Then you easily transition into marauder/thor. Half the time your opponent bites on your tank/viking hand and goes crazy on the vikings in which case you won instantly because those vikings are going to be useless cannonfodder to your thors.
There is also a not necessarily obvious relationship with banshee's and this build. Most people treat banshee's like a special unit that can't be used in combat unless its kept completely safe. Through air superiority or cloak with detection suppression.
But if you are going marauder thor against someone with viking superiority it actually makes sense to get banshee's. Especially cloaked ones. This seems counterintuitive at first because the vikings will rape them. Obviously you need to keep them safe behind your thors but first of all you can use your banshee's to draw his vikings into thor fire, and you can snipe tanks.
The reason this is strong is because you are intentionally throwing the banshees away but getting an equal or greater return in destroyed property.
Consider this, if a banshee destroys ONE tank, and dies. You gained from that exchange. If a banshee dies but caused a viking to die because it flew into thor fire to shoot it, then you've pretty much broken even, and you've gained if two vikings dies, which they usually do.
And again, making banshee's will force your opponent to keep tying up resources into more vikings just to not let those banshee's reign free.
I prefer getting cloak as well for my banshee's and just be all over the map with them when there is not a major engagement. Even with ravens and turrets, if you are good you will always come out with an even exchange of resources and more often than not use up all that cc energy for constant scans.
Edit: Another key to this build is that you can and need to outexpand your opponent. Which is very easy with your superior mobility.
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On August 07 2010 17:23 dinmsab wrote:TvT in SC2 is such a confusing matchup. The moment I see 1-2 banshees my usual reaction is to get turrets, some marines and vikings. The moment I do that, siege tanks appear at my front door and just shell my base to bits. On the other hand, if I go mass marauder to counter tanks my opponent just goes 5 banshees and rape my base. If everyone just starts going mass marauder in every single TvT game that would definitely make me a happier player.
haha yeah man, I vote for a disable of factory/starport in tvt and keep it simple. Everytime I think i got it down something else happens TT
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EPT
