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Well I took a lot of advice and did another game. I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base.
I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings.
I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late.
I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost.
I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135519.jpg)
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I use only a few crawlers and go heavier on hydras and creep, as they allow me to be aggressive.
Here is a platinum level game that shows how to defend and counter attack 4 gate push.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-135567.jpg)
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I have some comments on your game, dfsdfg.
First, you need to improve the timing of both lair and hydra den. I would skip speedling upgrade in favor of starting lair first. You need to work out your build such that as soon as your second queen finishes, you can start morphing into Lair, then as soon as Lair is done, drop Hydra Den asap. If you have to skip speedling upgrade to do that that is fine. There was a lot of down time there. Compare your Hydra timing to mine in the above replay.
Second, you need to start creep going with either first or second queen. You have to have creep so that your hydras can do a little bit of chasing, and you would get a little more map vision. (See, how I used that in my game.)
Third, before you started Lair, you had a lot of minerals unused. I throw down 1 or 2 crawlers as soon as my expo is done.
Around 9:30 in your replay you were basically dead. I suggest less lings and more hydras. Also, you mis-clicked your army. Your only hydras went to attack the rocks, instead of your enemy. Just do A-move, lol.
Good luck. 
Last note, you can sometimes get away with a counter-attack, as many Protoss just assume you can't go around them into their base. (Which is why my game was done in 13 minutes; somewhat lucky on my part but still a good catch and would force him to get off your back for a bit.)
And heh, another thing, once you see him go back a bit, throw down Spire asap as well. You will want to get either Mutas or Corruptors to deal with Collosus.
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On August 04 2010 12:07 fdsdfg wrote:Well I took a lot of advice and did another game. I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base. I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings. I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late. I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost. I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
Roaches in Zvp... NO roaches absolutley suck vs protoss gateway units man and ur proably losing because of the upgrades ?
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On August 02 2010 03:01 xDaunt wrote:
If you scout 4-gate, just build a bunch of spine crawlers.
Yeah I usually use as many as 6. They're fairly useful against protoss later game anyway and you're pretty much guaranteed to be safe from a 4 gate push. Lots of them will just keep throwing units into you instead of transitioning into a macro game because they don't know how to or don't want to play one.
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At which drone count do you normally start with setting up your defense? I've done some 4Gate practice games with my training partner, and it seemed to me that the timing window in which to start up your defense is pretty small. Put the crawlers up too early and you will be behind economically. Put them up too late, and Bad Things™ happen. I'm currently at work, so I can't check my own replays for the drone count that worked for me.
Moreover, I got the impression that it is crucial to adapt to the unit composition of the push. When my practice partner opted for more stalkers, he could just guard them with zealots and the stalkers could pick of my spine crawlers one by one. This again forces me to move out with my units, reducing the efficiency of my static D. Stalkers also nullified the protection by evo-chambers in front of the spine crawlers, since the stalkers range allows to attack the chamber unmolested by the crawlers.
And finally: since it seems to be the current consesus of the community that a higher number of spine crawlers is needed to defend against a 4G-Push, do we agree that it is nigh impossible to hold an expo against this strategy on maps like DO or Agria Valley, because you can't block of the entrance to both expo and main with one bunch of crawlers?
Offtopic: If I could create a little voodoo puppet of an SC2 map, and torture it to my heart's content, Agria Valley would be in for a nasty surprise!
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Not sure if this has been stated already cause I haven't read the entire thread, but in the 2nd game you could of placed your spine crawlers a bit better.
I wouldn't suggest sticking one spinecrawler out farther than another as it becomes easier to pick off. Put them in a straight line with some spacing in between them and use your army on the sides of them to push his army more towards the center. When his army begins to wrap around your army they will run into the spine crawlers.
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On August 04 2010 22:40 Elyzah wrote:
And finally: since it seems to be the current consesus of the community that a higher number of spine crawlers is needed to defend against a 4G-Push, do we agree that it is nigh impossible to hold an expo against this strategy on maps like DO or Agria Valley, because you can't block of the entrance to both expo and main with one bunch of crawlers?
Well, I'm just theorycrafting here, but it seems like if you keep your hydras on the high ground and zerglings behind hsi army, you can come in with the zerglings in the back and force him to decide whether to go into the static D or up the ramp. If he goes up the ramp you get a good concave with your hydras and his stalkers in the back aren't firing at all. If he goes into the crawlers you bring your hydras down and use them to guard the ramp (he's not going to run PAST your hydras, is he)
Again, just theory, but I think it could work.
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fdsdfg (WTF is with your name??) has it right.
If a sizable four gate push is approaching, get up some spine crawlers and a couple queens. Have a group of speedlings somewhere away from your base and attack his push from behind with them. Surround the stalkers in the back and the spine crawlers and queens will defend the zealots and sentries quite nicely.
This also prevents the toss player from force field blocking the lings, as they won't be prepared to do this behind their army. Roaches IMO aren't all that helpful in this situation.
Edit: typos 
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On August 05 2010 06:25 SeaSmoke wrote:
fdsdfg (WTF is with your name??) has it right.
I love on the phone.. "yeah, foxtrot delta sierra delta foxtrot golf at gmail"
If a sizable four gate push is approaching, get up some spine crawlers and a couple queens. Have a group of speedlings somewhere away from your base and attack his push from behind with them. Surround the stalkers in the back and the spine crawlers and queens will defend the zealots and sentries quite nicely. This also prevents the toss player from force field blocking the lings, as they won't be prepared to do this behind their army. Roaches IMO aren't all that helpful in this situation. Edit: typos
I think blocking the spine crawlers is important hear, because speedlings/hydras/crawlers will lose a lot to a zealot-heavy composition, even without charge it's pretty scary, especially if you're trying to chase him down off the creep after pushing him back (i lost hella hydras to this in the second match)
I went roaches because HD Starcraft's tutorial said to do heavy roaches to soak up damage and let the spine crawlers and hydras do their damage. I guess they just don't do the damage you need, and getting close to stalkers means they take a ton of damage.
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Ok just lost again.. Blistering sands. I can't put spine crawlers on both entrances, and he doesn't have to commit to either ramp.
I hate that the map pool means static D is never guranteed to work, and Zerg's static D can beat like 125% its cost. It makes it so worthless.
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Replay or it didn't happen.
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On August 04 2010 12:07 fdsdfg wrote:Well I took a lot of advice and did another game. I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base. I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings. I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late. I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost. I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
hey bro
i just beat a guy who was going 4gate -> expand. you want to go mutalisks as soon as he expands because that really contains him and lets you mass up more mutas and get a third. im mid-diamond around 400 rating so i'm eh decent.
i'll watch your replay later, but here is a replay of me beating 4gate -> expand. i even really overdid it on spine crawlers, i think i made 7 of them lool.
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136160.jpg)
i personally dislike hydras since it's really strict on timing and hydras feel soooo fragile. i only ever do hydras if they go phoenix opening, in which case i go hydras since the threat of collosi is much smaller.
simply thumbs down blistering sands if you're having too much trouble since that map is really stupid. no maps should have a backdoor to your main in this state of the game imo.
alright i saw your replay
i'll be completely honest and frank, you just aren't good enough at this game yet. like you just need to play to get a feeling for this game. know when to drone, know when to take your third and know when to attack. you saw his composition, it was gateway combination which i tihnk hydra ling should do fine. then he went immortals,and by that point you just lost more units and didn't have a good enough econ.
you didn't drone hard enough when you saw him expand, you have 3 crawlers yet you had 22 drones when his intial push failed. then he just out econed you while having 4 gated you, you got an expansion earlier but couldn't take advantage of it, just another starcraft mechanic/know what to do thing. you don't really need to come to the forums and ask how to beat a specific strategy, the guy outplayed you so you lost.
you should watch replays of pro players and watch how high their drone counts are and how they just have more stuff then the other player
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shouldn't have "expected" gate-core. you need to keep your drone alive as long as possible at least until there's 3 zealots. by then i think... he woulda tried to build 3 more gates which by then you'd know it coming. banelings and roaches. banelings and zerglings. zerglings and roaches. anything but all zerglings will block it then.
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Can anyone explain to me how the hell protoss is supposed to beat zerg. I really feel like its impossible. I have done the fast expand move and i have now tried 4 gating all in and i still cant beat zerg. This matchup at the moment seems ridiculously impossible. YOu have to prepare for 6-8 pool and then when you scout the 13 pool and gas you know they are going roach hydro or FE into roach. I really dont understand how you beat this matchup at all. They can also instead do speedling muta after the fast expand if you try and do something besides 4 gate and you lose that also
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On August 09 2010 03:15 lightrise wrote:
Can anyone explain to me how the hell protoss is supposed to beat zerg. I really feel like its impossible. I have done the fast expand move and i have now tried 4 gating all in and i still cant beat zerg. This matchup at the moment seems ridiculously impossible. YOu have to prepare for 6-8 pool and then when you scout the 13 pool and gas you know they are going roach hydro or FE into roach. I really dont understand how you beat this matchup at all. They can also instead do speedling muta after the fast expand if you try and do something besides 4 gate and you lose that also
If you see roaches just go more stalker heavy and your 4gate push should do just fine.
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*Sigh* @ "make 5 crawlers ezz" comments.
You can't always play in LT or meta or steppes. Also scrap often allows to make use of towers. DO I don't mention since it's crap map, don't play it and tosses rarely do regular 4gw pushes there.
Now, we're left with delta,xelnaga,blistering and kulas. You simply can't expand pre-lair there to expect to survive early pushes with towers. It's not simple to play zerg and expect to be able to FE nowadays, when FF works like flypaper and nat exps are too wide.
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On August 09 2010 03:15 lightrise wrote:
Can anyone explain to me how the hell protoss is supposed to beat zerg. I really feel like its impossible. I have done the fast expand move and i have now tried 4 gating all in and i still cant beat zerg. This matchup at the moment seems ridiculously impossible. YOu have to prepare for 6-8 pool and then when you scout the 13 pool and gas you know they are going roach hydro or FE into roach. I really dont understand how you beat this matchup at all. They can also instead do speedling muta after the fast expand if you try and do something besides 4 gate and you lose that also
I usually do a 4 gate push into a fast gold expansion. Then I double robo and do a 4 collosus rush. If it gets past that point, broodlords and ultras just own you silly. Sometimes, I'll switch it up and go double stargate instead of double robo. If you let it go to late game, ultra/broodlord/infestor will own your army.
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Honestly, you need 2-3 more spine crawlers, and use a queen to block your ramp.
Spine crawlers seriously are the answer to this sort of early all-in push.
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EPT
