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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker. Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50. While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi. Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP. Roaches DO NOT SUCK in ZvP unless you are 200/200 | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: reducing the effectiveness of colossi. i agree that roaches don't suck, and if you turn half your hydras into roaches you're better off, even without colossi - but I hate this perception. As long as a colossi cna fill its entire beam with roaches, it's at 100% efficiency. Moving all your roaches forward so they can all shoot is not an advantage - otherwise it'd be an advantage to move your hydras forward as if they had range 3. | ||
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EssayReader
Korea (South)127 Posts
Done. User was warned for this post | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
It will do 2 less damage when they have 65 more hp. They cost 1/2 the gas and you generally WANT them to die, especially if it means the hydras don't. Not to mention they generally force immortals, which lack bang for the buck vs everything else. The only time roaches aren't good is when you're at max pop, at which point you should have ultras anyway, and there is no comparison there. | ||
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 09 2010 07:41 Jermstuddog wrote: Every shot a colossus takes on a roach line is about 1/4 as effective as the hydra line. It will do 2 less damage when they have 65 more hp. They cost 1/2 the gas and you generally WANT them to die, especially if it means the hydras don't. Not to mention they generally force immortals, which lack bang for the buck vs everything else. The only time roaches aren't good is when you're at max pop, at which point you should have ultras anyway, and there is no comparison there. I'm not arguing any of this, I'm just saying the idea of having to move your roaches forward and form a 'double-line' is not an advantage. The colossus's beam and what % of potential targets it hits is all that determines efficiency. | ||
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CruS
Sweden218 Posts
First one features a 4 gate push, second one a 3 gate robo push. Just pretty standard stuff to get you going - nothing crazy, nothing really advanced. Just tons of minerals! ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136994.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-136995.jpg) edit: If you have any question on why I would make a certain decision - feel free to ask! edit2: also realize that my strategy is 99% the same (in the first 10 mins) in these two games, so if you cant scout the robobay but you know its 4 gate or 3 + robo - this would still work out. | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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arb
Noobville17922 Posts
On August 02 2010 03:41 Crushgroove wrote: This is a fair question... Anyone have definitive data with which to respond? if you give up your natural he's going to FF your ramp infinitely and rape you dont do that. Make 4-5 crawlers and get hydras out ASAP, hydras will rape any gateway army(non colossus supported) and with the crawlers you'll hold this off easily | ||
Nyovne
Netherlands19138 Posts
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Fistdantilus
United States136 Posts
I'm not going to even mention anything else because you need to fix your drone count first and foremost. The drone count peaked at minute FIVE (25 drones), dwindled to sub-20 through making buildings, and didn't even reach 25 drones again until the 16 minute mark where I stopped watching. | ||
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shawster
Canada2485 Posts
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I really hate this perception that Roaches suck in ZvP. 1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker. Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50. While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi. Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP. Roaches DO NOT SUCK in ZvP unless you are 200/200 yea but roaches get kited really hard by stalkers w/o roach speed. | ||
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FortuneSyn
1826 Posts
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Scroatal
Australia6 Posts
You can also try double hatchery in your own base if you scout the 4 gate. it allows you to match his unit production. | ||
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Galleon.frigate
Canada721 Posts
On August 09 2010 12:18 Scroatal wrote: Ive found one thing to be godly vs 4 gate. - Nydus. He will be on one base (Most dont expand straight away) - If you can knock out a few probes or even better his cybercore you will shut him down for a while (Without Core the stalkers are stopped and your roaches / banelings can eat his zealots) Even if you manage to kill 5-10 Probes You will stop the 4 gate. he will warp units into his base instead of the proxy this should give you enough time to find the proxy with your overlords or zerglings and hopefully Restock enough to start gaining a economic advantage. If you can start to mass Hydras and get your creep highway built it becomes a lot easier. You can also try double hatchery in your own base if you scout the 4 gate. it allows you to match his unit production. This sounds very interesting, but I fear it would be very much a one shot attempt --- if you're first nydus opening dies, I don't think you have the gas for a second in time, or at least all that gas not bring in your army might gg you... I don't know, it would obviously force him to be concerned with this base... I agree it can work, but it feels very fragile to me. | ||
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Killmour
United States105 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On August 09 2010 09:51 CruS wrote: Here are two games I just played on Kulas Ravine on the EU ladder. First one features a 4 gate push, second one a 3 gate robo push. Just pretty standard stuff to get you going - nothing crazy, nothing really advanced. Just tons of minerals! edit: If you have any question on why I would make a certain decision - feel free to ask! edit2: also realize that my strategy is 99% the same (in the first 10 mins) in these two games, so if you cant scout the robobay but you know its 4 gate or 3 + robo - this would still work out. I watched most of both replays, both are not that informative. The 4gate sits in his base amassing minerals and does almost zero scouting/ aggression. The 3 gate robo game: I chuckled when he sacrificed his colossi to lings on creep for no reason. Then managed to build up 3500 minerals with something like 140 food. It just seems like those two games are not very helpful in helping with either build against a player who pushes and then presses their advantage rather than just throwing it away. | ||
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Dave[9]
United States2365 Posts
The best thing any of you as a player can do best to counter it is to realize that there are some trends and patterns you see in this particular build, and then decide on how to exploit the weaknesses of it. For example, he's just made 2gates, and has taken both of his gas's already. Does this mean he's going to 2gate or make another gateway and a cyber core? Clearly more intel is needed, but since you know that he's taken both his gas's, you can leeway that he's gonna make a cybercore and start pumping out stalkers and sentries. Maybe even tech to collosi or immortals before moving out. If you've been 4gated more than once, watch the replays..and write down some common aspects to the builds. Not everyone is going to do the same exact build order, but remember, every build has it's strengths and weakness's. Hell, maybe you did some mistakes yourself in letting an ovie die, or you get supply blocked (being supply blocked is probably the most common mistake amongst players worldwide.). So maybe there are more things you need to work on yourself before trying to deal with specific all in builds such as this one. If you have solid macro as a zerg, you should be able to stop most things in this game. + Show Spoiler + I have no idea where that all came from o.o; | ||
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altairian
United States105 Posts
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I really hate this perception that Roaches suck in ZvP. 1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker. Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50. While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi. Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP. Roaches DO NOT SUCK in ZvP unless you are 200/200 Yeah they do. Against pure stalkers, with speed and on creep, roaches do well. Add in zealots and sentries, and the story changes a lot. Speedlings are a lot harder for protoss to deal with than roaches, even though zealots are so strong against zerglings, with speed it becomes very difficult to manage fighting speedlings unless you've created a situation that they're forced to engage. | ||
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CruS
Sweden218 Posts
On August 09 2010 12:59 Killmour wrote: I watched most of both replays, both are not that informative. The 4gate sits in his base amassing minerals and does almost zero scouting/ aggression. The 3 gate robo game: I chuckled when he sacrificed his colossi to lings on creep for no reason. Then managed to build up 3500 minerals with something like 140 food. It just seems like those two games are not very helpful in helping with either build against a player who pushes and then presses their advantage rather than just throwing it away. Hey I never said that my opponent were super good - but the players the OP are facing are probably not better... Presses what advantage? He failed the early push and now he expands.. Long story short -> fast exp + scout + tons of lings + spines + drones + tech + hydra + roach + upgrades + exxxxxp | ||
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FREAKNASTY
United States1 Post
You scout with your drone and see the standard pylon/gate/cyber coming in. Would it be a good idea to bring in another drone and with those 2 to pop extractors over his gas/cancel before completion so that the stalkers are delayed and you don't lose any mins? I do realize it is 100 minerals (you don't lose it but you can't really use them either until you cancel) and 2 drones. Would this slow you down more than it would slow them? I figure something like this could be used to help facilitate a build made towards getting mutas, it could give you a few extra minutes or two to get those flyers in and do damage. | ||
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jamesr12
United States1549 Posts
If the try to expand you have two options take your 3rd and get hydras, or just try and finish it before the expo gets up. If they dont expand they are just going to try to keep sending units. Keep holding with the same stuff and slowlyyyyyyyy tech to hydra to make sure you dont get over run. once you have hydras you win. | ||
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