I just lost a pretty simple ZvP. The P was proficient, but didn't do anything creative or out of the ordinary. He built gate, core, gate gate gate and pushed with the kind of army you'd expect.
The match went something like this:
-Drone scout saw gate and gas, figured it was gate -> core and I could safely expand -Probe + Pylon delayed expo, sunk extra minerals into some static to put in natural -Overlord scouted cy core chrono boosting, figured some sort of warp in play, zerglings went out to look for a proxy pylon -Protoss pushed out catching a few zerglings, I went back to my base to fight alongside queens and static D. -Fight used forcefields to beat zerglings, and forcefielded my ramp to prevent reinforcements. His army killed my nat and static D and basically won.
Now, clearly the P player was good for getting the right army, blocking my expo, using forcefields correctly... but again, nothing here is creative, it's standard proficient play.
The push was early enough that I couldn't make use of any T2 units, so really I was on zerglings, roaches, and static defense. Roaches would have been nice for the zealots, but when I see early core I generally go mutaling because if he waits until robo bay to push out, roaches end up being a complete waste. They lose to everything except zealots really.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Replay:
Edit:
All the advice was much appreciated - I took it all under consideration for a second match where the P did the same opening.
I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base.
I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire or any hive tech. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings.
I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late.
I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost.
I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
Get on 2 bases, wait throw down a crawler or 2 at your nat and mass slings and roaches, dont try and drone. you need to cut drone production for a bit to stop a 4 gate... also, thumbs down stepps. If you scout 4 gate he wont be getting collsi anytime soon.
I'm really not great with zerg so I can't comment to much build wise, but looking at the army stats you were very far behind in terms of unit production.
From a Toss point of view, early aggression, and spotting my proxy pylon would be your best bet. Take 2 lings, and have them on separate tracks just keep them looking. Don't stop. I just hold shift and click like mad in all the areas I personally would put one.
Your early game was terrible: you got supply locked on 18, delaying your queen and your zerglings. Build an overlord somewhat soon after your pool is started.
You also built too many early drones for this map: a 2-gate would have ended the game under 5 minutes. Save up larvae for zerglings while your pool is building. Stop producing units around 40% pool completion to have 3 larvae when pool completes.
You built your crawlers at your main when you could have had them at your expo when the attack arrived instead of slowly moving them there.
In short, it had nothing to do with a 4-gate beating you. Gotta work on your early game.
I think about 3 queens 2-3-4 spine crawlers and a bunch of lings is about the most successful thing. Tranfusion is helpful too, I really tried hard to get roach ling to work but rushes can come as early as 6:20 (1 gas) or late as 8:20 (30 probes) with hallucinate and earlier tends to give me problems. You can transition nicely to hydras after that since they really do well vs warpgate units and it exploits the lack of tech.
I saw a great video explaining this by Day9 I think. It was a ZvP on Kulas Ravine showcasing how to defend against a 4gate. If I find it I'll post it.
Edit: All right I cant find it but the thing I remembered was that you should try to keep as many lings alive as possible during the first wave of FFs, and then try to snipe the Sentries and just harass the zealots with lings by quickly attacking and then moving away and let the static deal with them.
don't take fast exp on this map, the starting positions are the closest on this one.. need more spine crawlers and try to macro up to beat the first 4 gate timing attack
On August 02 2010 03:17 Fistdantilus wrote: Your early game was terrible: you got supply locked on 18, delaying your queen and your zerglings. Build an overlord somewhat soon after your pool is started.
You also built too many early drones for this map: a 2-gate would have ended the game under 5 minutes. Save up larvae for zerglings while your pool is building. Stop producing units around 40% pool completion to have 3 larvae when pool completes.
You built your crawlers at your main when you could have had them at your expo when the attack arrived instead of slowly moving them there.
In short, it had nothing to do with a 4-gate beating you. Gotta work on your early game.
The supply lock was bad, but I did scout the gate->core, so I was allowed to build all those drones.
I built the crawlers before the expo was up, I have to build them on creep.
Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
This is a fair question... Anyone have definitive data with which to respond?
Make 4-6 spine crawlers and an extra queen or two (a couple transfusions make a big difference). You should also have some lings and even hydras coming out when hes arriving on your doorstep. It just takes alot of practice. One thing that works really well on steppes specifically, is using a creep tumor to get your defenses closer to the ramp so that he can't see up without getting shot at (block him from getting up with lings), then by the time he kills the destructable rocks you have enough hydras to kill him. Maps like LT you can just make 6-7 spine crawlers and its literally impossible for him to break you. On places like blistering sands or desert oasis you really have to get hydras out early and make good use creep tumor so you have the mobility to adjust to which side/backdoor he is coming from. I find that with good hydra timing on most maps I can stop 4gate without making more than 4 spines. Make 6 to be safe till you get a feel for it.
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
This is a fair question... Anyone have definitive data with which to respond?
If you sac your expo and hold the ramp you will be behind. The 4gate timing will ensure superior forces if you decided to expand, and a good player will drop an expo asap once he moves out. At that point you are down a base with inferior forces and likely a worse economy. There is no real reason to lose to a straightforward 4gate push if you know its coming. It's just pretty obscene to deal with thats all. Z is the worst race atm, though the stats only really reflect Z being the worst if you are in top 50 diamond. Anywhere below that its only a few % worse, and ZvP is one of the most balanced matchups anyways.
if you know 4gate is coming you need crawlers, on small distances you need like 4-5 while on long distances 2 can be enough
you need many speedlings to delay him, get his proxy pylon or pretend a backstab or an attack on his forces while you are teching on hydras as fast as you can
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
No. I wouldn't say I have "definitive data", but you lose your 300 mineral expo, any spines, and there's still a huge army sitting outside your base. It's a really bad situation. If you have to pull drones from your nat to help, do it, but just sacing it sounds like an awful idea.
Several spine crawlers (3-4, 6 seems excessive...) are good as are speedlings and roaches while teching to hydras. Get an extra queen as well for transfusion on the spines/roaches (and in case you miscouted and he does some VR play).
The hardest part about 4gate is dealing with it on the terrible new maps or other maps where you have a wide open natural and easy access to FF your ramp/do a walkby and FF (steppes, the new 4 player map, the new 2 player map, DO, to some degree metal). It's also harder to deal with on maps where there's a backdoor, but don't panic and uproot all of them b/c they could come back in the front. This gives you more time to prepare with hydras.
Edit: I strongly recommend against mutas. The push usually comes before you can get enough mutas up and if he's going 4 gate with mostly stalkers you're boned.
Thanks for all the advice. I think static D is the 'easy' answer - but I should have sacced an earlier overlord (or a couple zerglings) to see that it was indeed a 4gate earlier. I only saw the gate and core in total.
I don't think roaches or banelings are the answer, and I'll work on my zergling micro vs sentries.
I really don't think muta are the answer because to get that much gas I have to sacrifice a lot of minerals, and I think I'd rather have the static D and queens.
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