I just lost a pretty simple ZvP. The P was proficient, but didn't do anything creative or out of the ordinary. He built gate, core, gate gate gate and pushed with the kind of army you'd expect.
The match went something like this:
-Drone scout saw gate and gas, figured it was gate -> core and I could safely expand -Probe + Pylon delayed expo, sunk extra minerals into some static to put in natural -Overlord scouted cy core chrono boosting, figured some sort of warp in play, zerglings went out to look for a proxy pylon -Protoss pushed out catching a few zerglings, I went back to my base to fight alongside queens and static D. -Fight used forcefields to beat zerglings, and forcefielded my ramp to prevent reinforcements. His army killed my nat and static D and basically won.
Now, clearly the P player was good for getting the right army, blocking my expo, using forcefields correctly... but again, nothing here is creative, it's standard proficient play.
The push was early enough that I couldn't make use of any T2 units, so really I was on zerglings, roaches, and static defense. Roaches would have been nice for the zealots, but when I see early core I generally go mutaling because if he waits until robo bay to push out, roaches end up being a complete waste. They lose to everything except zealots really.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Replay:
Edit:
All the advice was much appreciated - I took it all under consideration for a second match where the P did the same opening.
I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base.
I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire or any hive tech. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings.
I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late.
I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost.
I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
Get on 2 bases, wait throw down a crawler or 2 at your nat and mass slings and roaches, dont try and drone. you need to cut drone production for a bit to stop a 4 gate... also, thumbs down stepps. If you scout 4 gate he wont be getting collsi anytime soon.
I'm really not great with zerg so I can't comment to much build wise, but looking at the army stats you were very far behind in terms of unit production.
From a Toss point of view, early aggression, and spotting my proxy pylon would be your best bet. Take 2 lings, and have them on separate tracks just keep them looking. Don't stop. I just hold shift and click like mad in all the areas I personally would put one.
Your early game was terrible: you got supply locked on 18, delaying your queen and your zerglings. Build an overlord somewhat soon after your pool is started.
You also built too many early drones for this map: a 2-gate would have ended the game under 5 minutes. Save up larvae for zerglings while your pool is building. Stop producing units around 40% pool completion to have 3 larvae when pool completes.
You built your crawlers at your main when you could have had them at your expo when the attack arrived instead of slowly moving them there.
In short, it had nothing to do with a 4-gate beating you. Gotta work on your early game.
I think about 3 queens 2-3-4 spine crawlers and a bunch of lings is about the most successful thing. Tranfusion is helpful too, I really tried hard to get roach ling to work but rushes can come as early as 6:20 (1 gas) or late as 8:20 (30 probes) with hallucinate and earlier tends to give me problems. You can transition nicely to hydras after that since they really do well vs warpgate units and it exploits the lack of tech.
I saw a great video explaining this by Day9 I think. It was a ZvP on Kulas Ravine showcasing how to defend against a 4gate. If I find it I'll post it.
Edit: All right I cant find it but the thing I remembered was that you should try to keep as many lings alive as possible during the first wave of FFs, and then try to snipe the Sentries and just harass the zealots with lings by quickly attacking and then moving away and let the static deal with them.
don't take fast exp on this map, the starting positions are the closest on this one.. need more spine crawlers and try to macro up to beat the first 4 gate timing attack
On August 02 2010 03:17 Fistdantilus wrote: Your early game was terrible: you got supply locked on 18, delaying your queen and your zerglings. Build an overlord somewhat soon after your pool is started.
You also built too many early drones for this map: a 2-gate would have ended the game under 5 minutes. Save up larvae for zerglings while your pool is building. Stop producing units around 40% pool completion to have 3 larvae when pool completes.
You built your crawlers at your main when you could have had them at your expo when the attack arrived instead of slowly moving them there.
In short, it had nothing to do with a 4-gate beating you. Gotta work on your early game.
The supply lock was bad, but I did scout the gate->core, so I was allowed to build all those drones.
I built the crawlers before the expo was up, I have to build them on creep.
Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
This is a fair question... Anyone have definitive data with which to respond?
Make 4-6 spine crawlers and an extra queen or two (a couple transfusions make a big difference). You should also have some lings and even hydras coming out when hes arriving on your doorstep. It just takes alot of practice. One thing that works really well on steppes specifically, is using a creep tumor to get your defenses closer to the ramp so that he can't see up without getting shot at (block him from getting up with lings), then by the time he kills the destructable rocks you have enough hydras to kill him. Maps like LT you can just make 6-7 spine crawlers and its literally impossible for him to break you. On places like blistering sands or desert oasis you really have to get hydras out early and make good use creep tumor so you have the mobility to adjust to which side/backdoor he is coming from. I find that with good hydra timing on most maps I can stop 4gate without making more than 4 spines. Make 6 to be safe till you get a feel for it.
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
This is a fair question... Anyone have definitive data with which to respond?
If you sac your expo and hold the ramp you will be behind. The 4gate timing will ensure superior forces if you decided to expand, and a good player will drop an expo asap once he moves out. At that point you are down a base with inferior forces and likely a worse economy. There is no real reason to lose to a straightforward 4gate push if you know its coming. It's just pretty obscene to deal with thats all. Z is the worst race atm, though the stats only really reflect Z being the worst if you are in top 50 diamond. Anywhere below that its only a few % worse, and ZvP is one of the most balanced matchups anyways.
if you know 4gate is coming you need crawlers, on small distances you need like 4-5 while on long distances 2 can be enough
you need many speedlings to delay him, get his proxy pylon or pretend a backstab or an attack on his forces while you are teching on hydras as fast as you can
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
No. I wouldn't say I have "definitive data", but you lose your 300 mineral expo, any spines, and there's still a huge army sitting outside your base. It's a really bad situation. If you have to pull drones from your nat to help, do it, but just sacing it sounds like an awful idea.
Several spine crawlers (3-4, 6 seems excessive...) are good as are speedlings and roaches while teching to hydras. Get an extra queen as well for transfusion on the spines/roaches (and in case you miscouted and he does some VR play).
The hardest part about 4gate is dealing with it on the terrible new maps or other maps where you have a wide open natural and easy access to FF your ramp/do a walkby and FF (steppes, the new 4 player map, the new 2 player map, DO, to some degree metal). It's also harder to deal with on maps where there's a backdoor, but don't panic and uproot all of them b/c they could come back in the front. This gives you more time to prepare with hydras.
Edit: I strongly recommend against mutas. The push usually comes before you can get enough mutas up and if he's going 4 gate with mostly stalkers you're boned.
Thanks for all the advice. I think static D is the 'easy' answer - but I should have sacced an earlier overlord (or a couple zerglings) to see that it was indeed a 4gate earlier. I only saw the gate and core in total.
I don't think roaches or banelings are the answer, and I'll work on my zergling micro vs sentries.
I really don't think muta are the answer because to get that much gas I have to sacrifice a lot of minerals, and I think I'd rather have the static D and queens.
Scout well. If the protoss doesn't expand and stays on one base you should expect a 4 gate, because this is probably the only viable 1 base strat against zerg. Put up a lot of spinecrawlers (4 or so) with zerglings will help generally.
On August 02 2010 04:23 KrUtiAL wrote: To beat a 4 gate you need plenty of crawlers, spread creep, and speedlings to hold it off until your hydras come out.
AND MOST IMPORTANTLY: SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT SCOUT
Yeah... after watching that HDStarcraft tutorial I realize both how little intel I get and how few drones I'm producing.
Pretty simple solution. Sac overlord a little after core has finished to see his tech path. After confirming 4 gate build make 10-15 speedlings and 4-6 sunkens in a timely manner. When he moves out look to counter hit main with your speedlings. It is ridiculous how often protoss do not block their ramp. Even if they do, speedlings are plenty strong versus his stalkers and sentries. You can also snipe his probe building a pylon if you get lucky. If you fend off his first wave or he backs off, you should have hydralisks out and he shouldn't be able to do anything.
If he 4 gates on kulas then mass speedling is like the only way to go because he can bounce from your natural to your main after destroying the rocks.
I don't think speedling is the answer. When I scout 4 gate, I skip speed and rush to hydras. Here's a replay of me defending a 4 gate. I'm mid-level diamond, and so is the other guy.
On August 02 2010 05:01 MrBitter wrote: I don't think speedling is the answer. When I scout 4 gate, I skip speed and rush to hydras. Here's a replay of me defending a 4 gate. I'm mid-level diamond, and so is the other guy.
I'm by no means a pro, but I felt like this was a pretty sufficient defense.
no speed leaves you very vulnerable to many things. speedlings are just too good to pass up in any matchup.
check idra vs huk game 2 i believe, huk had like 6 warpgates on one base and all idra did was make 5 spine crawlers. this was SoW so the rush distances were damn short. general rule of thumb, poke with zerglings. if you see no expand by 40-50 make a ton of spine crawlers.
On August 02 2010 05:01 MrBitter wrote: I don't think speedling is the answer. When I scout 4 gate, I skip speed and rush to hydras. Here's a replay of me defending a 4 gate. I'm mid-level diamond, and so is the other guy.
I'm by no means a pro, but I felt like this was a pretty sufficient defense.
no speed leaves you very vulnerable to many things. speedlings are just too good to pass up in any matchup.
check idra vs huk game 2 i believe, huk had like 6 warpgates on one base and all idra did was make 5 spine crawlers. this was SoW so the rush distances were damn short. general rule of thumb, poke with zerglings. if you see no expand by 40-50 make a ton of spine crawlers.
Speed's awesome. I still get speed. I just don't get it with my first 100 gas.
It's been my experience that roaches just melt under stalkers, and we all know that lings don't fare too well against stalker/zeal. Hydra allow you to get aggressive much sooner, rather than sitting back and being forced to play defensive for so long.
In the replay I posted, as soon as I defended his push I was able to expo and take full map control. Toss was able to destroy my third later in the game, but it was at the expense of his entire army, which would eventually cost him the game.
Edit: Turns out I'm a liar. I didn't start speed until the end of that game, which was a mistake. But still... If you know 4 gate is coming, you can defend it without speed. You shouldn't skip speed, but it's not entirely necessary)
On August 02 2010 05:01 MrBitter wrote: I don't think speedling is the answer. When I scout 4 gate, I skip speed and rush to hydras. Here's a replay of me defending a 4 gate. I'm mid-level diamond, and so is the other guy.
I'm by no means a pro, but I felt like this was a pretty sufficient defense.
no speed leaves you very vulnerable to many things. speedlings are just too good to pass up in any matchup.
check idra vs huk game 2 i believe, huk had like 6 warpgates on one base and all idra did was make 5 spine crawlers. this was SoW so the rush distances were damn short. general rule of thumb, poke with zerglings. if you see no expand by 40-50 make a ton of spine crawlers.
Speed's awesome. I still get speed. I just don't get it with my first 100 gas.
It's been my experience that roaches just melt under stalkers, and we all know that lings don't fare too well against stalker/zeal. Hydra allow you to get aggressive much sooner, rather than sitting back and being forced to play defensive for so long.
In the replay I posted, as soon as I defended his push I was able to expo and take full map control. Toss was able to destroy my third later in the game, but it was at the expense of his entire army, which would eventually cost him the game.
Edit: Turns out I'm a liar. I didn't start speed until the end of that game, which was a mistake. But still... If you know 4 gate is coming, you can defend it without speed. You shouldn't skip speed, but it's not entirely necessary)
well i don't see the point of being aggresive vs 4gate, you should be on 2 bases after a successfully defended 2 gate and he should be on 1, unless you're on 1 base in which case 4gate shouldn't be as scary. speedlings are so good at chasing down/picking off units ,and speed just rapes stalkers/sentries and they are actually decent vs zealots. i can see how hydras would work, i guess it's just playstyle differences.
The big trick to remember is that just because you took your expansion doesn't mean you should saturate it. If they did not expand and you have enough drones for one base spread between your two mineral lines, you are ahead. You should NEVER build more drones at this point unless you are 100% sure he is going to let you get away with it.
as soon as you expo finishes and you maynard 8-10 drones over and still have 8-10 on your main minerals, go into survive mode. Against 4 gate, units and spine crawlers (ofcourse replace drones used un structures). Against teching, tech yourself.
As soon as you sieze an advantage or see him try and expand, power drone and maybe expand again yourself.
The biggest mistake us zergies can make is not knowing when we are ahead and to stop droning and go into full production.
Your gas was way late, your drones weren't being efficiently mining as much as possible, you had a bunch idle plenty of times. Your minerals were always wayyy too high. You need to find a way to keep them under 300 unless you are waiting to build a hatchery or something. Your queen came out very late, your expansion was delayed and I think that made you panic. Don't worry, the expansion is delayed? Continue to build drones at your main to offset the economic loss, not a big deal, pump an overlord, use that larva, your larva was idle too long. You see a big 4 gate? Always get speeling upgrade versus toss, if you had yoru gas earlier you could have had speedling upgrade done and out of the way.
A way I keep my minerals down is by having gas early so I can adapt to getting a lair earlier if I can pull it off, getting ling upgrade, etc... If you get gas too late it throws everything off, and leaves you with less options, and your minerals usually go too high, meaning you aren't spending enough on anything other than just drones.
Also you had 400 minerals 400 gas when you finished off, that could have easily been lots of lings and a few hydras. You just need to work on your macro, there isn't a secret to beating 4 gate, it's jsut playing solid and coming out ahead in econ.
And 16 drones at the 8 minute mark versus his 24. He was all-inning and he had 8 more harvesters than you.
spine crawlers and setting up a simcity defense are key in surviving a 4 gate push. hd's video does an excellent job of showing how you can expand your idea of static defense as well (using evo chambers to "wall off" the spine crawlers, thus allowing them to attack longer and making it harder for the protoss to take them down)
As a protoss player my 4gate is usually stopped by a mix of roaches, zerglings and spine crawlers. Scouting is a must or you wont have the amount of spine crawlers you need.
6 ling run into protoss probe line (if he has not block the ramp)
At the same time mass lings, really MASS them, you need to make more lings until you completely crush his attacking force. Stop your drone production for a while and make the lings before the push come. (you should be able to know if you have zerglings to scout)
To be fair, the only time I emplore 4-gate is when I am playing against zerg opponents because of the 98% chance that they will go early FE. I use 4 gate because it is the most effective strategy for punishing this gambit.
Even if I do scout 4 gate it seems like pure blink stalker army is too much to handle. If I stay on one base and go mass sling or sling/muta he seems to be able to keep the pressure up. I tried some games with 3-4 scrawlers and with and without FE but it seems like the only way to beat this is by staying on one base without any mutas since you won't have enough.
On August 02 2010 23:16 Galneryus wrote: My question is after you stop the 4 gate you want to be in a good position. When should Lair come up for the follow up hydras?
if you stop the four gate your in a good position eco wise and usually u can out mass your oppenant 1-2 mins after the intially push. Imo you should get lair just before the first attack then trans to hydras
I admit I skipped to the end of the thread after reading the OP.
I like to build a few extra crawlers and then take my speedlings out of the natural off to the side. When the 4 gate push comes in, bring the speedlings around and smash the protoss between the speedlings and crawlers. Usually works pretty well for me, I haven't had anyone try to forcefield it though.
i usually expand after my queen is out so if i scout he is going 4 gate i go roaches immediately and push out with lings and 5-6 roaches for the usual gg.
i just have to vent a little now... I just played 4 games against a diamond toss.
Game 1 (Xel Naga Caverns): I go Pool --> Expansion with Crawlers/Lings to defend any 4 gate.... He goes Voidray rush, 2 Voidrays come 5 seconds before my Hydra den finishes --> GG (i actually can fight a little on, but it was over). Game 2 (Blistering Sands): I go Fast exe, he goes 2 Gates... I hold it, but Crawlers to the front and went for Mutas... He breaks my back entrence at the moment my first 3 Mutas pop, i had money for 7 but forgot a crucial Overlord. Game 3 (Scrap station): I go fast exe, he goes Phoenix rush with loads of Zealots... I lose tons of Queens/Overlords until enough Hydras/Spores pop... He takes his expansion, goes Carriers... I lose -.- (that was a really retarded game). Game 4 (Xel Naga Caverns): I go 2 Hatch Ling/Baneling... He goes 4 Gates and for the first time in the whole series has 3-4 Sentries ready at his ramp, he even missplaced 2 Forcefields so i could still go in with half my army... One more baneling blast and i would have totally broken, but the last 2 banelings got caged in between 2 forcefields and instead of 4 dead Zealots there were 4 near dead Zealots and 2 Stalkers that picked up my caged army. Later i make a lingrunbye and kill a good amount of probes, he warps in some Zealots/retreats his army to his base and defends it, he attacks my Expansion 20 seconds before 4 Spinecrawlers finish (1 goes up) ---> GG.
HATEEEEEEEEE! I wish Zerg would have only half the amount of abusive shit and builds of instant gg that aren't total all-in as Protoss...
On the bright side, as i went home from work today i knew i don't feel like laddering today, so... No damage done :p
On August 02 2010 02:51 fdsdfg wrote: I just lost a pretty simple ZvP. The P was proficient, but didn't do anything creative or out of the ordinary. He built gate, core, gate gate gate and pushed with the kind of army you'd expect.
The match went something like this:
-Drone scout saw gate and gas, figured it was gate -> core and I could safely expand -Probe + Pylon delayed expo, sunk extra minerals into some static to put in natural -Overlord scouted cy core chrono boosting, figured some sort of warp in play, zerglings went out to look for a proxy pylon -Protoss pushed out catching a few zerglings, I went back to my base to fight alongside queens and static D. -Fight used forcefields to beat zerglings, and forcefielded my ramp to prevent reinforcements. His army killed my nat and static D and basically won.
Now, clearly the P player was good for getting the right army, blocking my expo, using forcefields correctly... but again, nothing here is creative, it's standard proficient play.
The push was early enough that I couldn't make use of any T2 units, so really I was on zerglings, roaches, and static defense. Roaches would have been nice for the zealots, but when I see early core I generally go mutaling because if he waits until robo bay to push out, roaches end up being a complete waste. They lose to everything except zealots really.
Any advice would be appreciated.
Replay:
I've had some trouble with the zerg getting a few mutas for containment purposes and forcing me to either divide my force or base trade.. If the P stays in his base you can out-expand and overwhelm him with hydra/roach/zergling or tech to broods etc.. whatever your style.
What would you do in this situation if you had a wide choke point? Lost Temple gives you a nice tight spot to defend with 5-6 crawlers, but if you look at Desert Oasis or something similiar they can just skip the natural and git your main. What would you do here, put 3 up at each location and support with speedlings? It seems very difficult to hold, I've had no luck with it so far.
On August 03 2010 07:23 Perturabo wrote: What would you do in this situation if you had a wide choke point? Lost Temple gives you a nice tight spot to defend with 5-6 crawlers, but if you look at Desert Oasis or something similiar they can just skip the natural and git your main. What would you do here, put 3 up at each location and support with speedlings? It seems very difficult to hold, I've had no luck with it so far.
DO has the advantage of like an extra 30 seconds of travel time, that's enough time to get another spawn larvae's round of units, which is a plus. But it is a very difficult natural to defend - I don't know what would work best.
On August 02 2010 23:16 Galneryus wrote: My question is after you stop the 4 gate you want to be in a good position. When should Lair come up for the follow up hydras?
I don't know about you but I always get a lair before zergling speed in zvp. Ling speed is always up in time and a lot of tosses like to go DTs, sometimes they 4 gate and proxy a darkshrine so you don't suspect anything. Also, fast overseer means you can scout any of the following builds; -Colossus rush (REALLY sick on the map with the backdoor you literally need mutas to stop them) -Void rays/Pheonixes -DT -3 Gate robo -Blink stalkers
So even if he doesn't 4 gate it can give you a heads up as to how many drones you can make and when you need your hydras/mutas.
i have the same problem as you, although i am usually a little farther along in my defence before the protoss arrives at my front door. i generally have 3 spine crawlers and 6-8 roaches at my natural, i still manage to lose everytime somehow though. all i can recommend is dont try to defend with only lings and get down more spine crawlers
holy shit. im raging hardcore right now. im like 0-11 today to this bs 4gate crap. any noob can pull that off while the Z player has to bust his ass trying to defend.
even when i do survive the 4gate i just end up dying soon thereafter when the toss transitions to colossi and rapes my entire roach/hydra army. I'm not one to call imba very often (if ever), but in this situation I cannot give any other explanation.
It is very hard for the Z early game to know what the protoss is doing with all the options they have available to them (put pressure with zealots/wait for 4gate/ wait for stargate etc) I find that if i prepare for heavy early zealot pressure by getting a few roaches, I just die later on to mass stalker/sentry.
If I don't take my expo early, I know I can't win mid game because the p eco will be way ahead of mine and I will be screwed.
I have beaten the 4gate a few times, but I honestly think it was probably because the toss was weak or made a lot of mistakes.
What I'm currently doing is 15 pool into 20 hatch and getting zling speed soon after. If I see the toss is double gateing and pumping mass zlot ill get a roach warren around 17 and get 4-5 roaches and then throw down my expo.
Any extremely radical tips on how to beat this strat are what I'd like to see because roach/sling/crawlers clearly doesnt work against the better players.
I've gone down from diamond 4th in my div to 18th by losing to this garbage.
couple things i think you have plenty of room to improve as a player and i think the better player did win that game. that being said, there are a couple of tactics you can implore to help you, mostly because of teh map (steppes of war is marked as an unwanted for map for 1v1) -get creep to the top of second ramp ASAP -if you are FE against a protoss or terran on this map, you will NEED 3-4 spine crawlers on top of that second ramp to hold off the early-midgame push -zergling/hydra are the best investments for this matchup. they have the highest dps and if the opponent focuses towers, you will be doing maximum dmg to his forces. transitioning into ultras later is a good option considering if the 4 gate doesnt work, protoss will expand and go 4gate 2robo -after holding off the 4 gate get a 3rd asap. you will need it to have a chance at securing a win.
all around i feel the map is just a zergs nightmare for this matchup, but there is always something you can do. Know that the general trend on this map for protoss is early aggression. try some of these tactics and i think you may see that your chances are not so bleak.
On August 03 2010 14:51 aaroB wrote: holy shit. im raging hardcore right now. im like 0-11 today to this bs 4gate crap. any noob can pull that off while the Z player has to bust his ass trying to defend.
even when i do survive the 4gate i just end up dying soon thereafter when the toss transitions to colossi and rapes my entire roach/hydra army. I'm not one to call imba very often (if ever), but in this situation I cannot give any other explanation.
It is very hard for the Z early game to know what the protoss is doing with all the options they have available to them (put pressure with zealots/wait for 4gate/ wait for stargate etc) I find that if i prepare for heavy early zealot pressure by getting a few roaches, I just die later on to mass stalker/sentry.
If I don't take my expo early, I know I can't win mid game because the p eco will be way ahead of mine and I will be screwed.
I have beaten the 4gate a few times, but I honestly think it was probably because the toss was weak or made a lot of mistakes.
What I'm currently doing is 15 pool into 20 hatch and getting zling speed soon after. If I see the toss is double gateing and pumping mass zlot ill get a roach warren around 17 and get 4-5 roaches and then throw down my expo.
Any extremely radical tips on how to beat this strat are what I'd like to see because roach/sling/crawlers clearly doesnt work against the better players.
I've gone down from diamond 4th in my div to 18th by losing to this garbage.
Cheers
I've been singing this tune through this whole thread, but no one wants to listen. =\
I've got two replays posted further back in the thread. I was up at 7th Diamond and dove all the way down into the 80s before I started figuring out this matchup. Now I'm back up to the mid 20s, and gaining ground steadily.
I do this:
15 Gas, 15 Pool If I scout anything EXCEPT 2 Gate, I'll throw down my hatch between 16-18.
If toss blocks his ramp with cute building placement and 1-3 zealots, you can pretty well count on some sort of 4 gate, or 3 gate/robo push. This doesn't mean stop scouting though. You're going ot have to suicide an overlord or two to be sure.
Make sure to get queens up at both bases.
My first 100 gas is for ling speed.
After about 26-28 supply I get 16-24 lings so that I can always threaten a backstab if he pushes out too soon or leaves his front open or just gets reckless with his units.
My second 100 gas is for lair. As lair is morphing, add your 2nd gas.
Sprint your ass off to hydras. Keep scouting. 2-4 spines need to go down around the same time as your hydra den.
Once its up, you're pumping pure hydra.
Unit control determines the outcome of his push. Surround with your lings. His push is over once you take out his forward pylon. If you can clean up his army, you can win here. If he's able to retreat back to his base, you have to spring to Hive for ultras, as you can count on colossus coming out to deal with your hydras.
Stay aggressive with your lings. It just takes a second of the toss letting his guard down for you to snipe his natural expo as its morphing in. Always be ready to scarf up any unguarded probes. Keep scouting for cute stuff. Overlord speed should have been researched sometime between when you threw down the hydra den and when you repelled his push.
Also, if you repel the push, you have to take a 3rd. You have to have the extra gas for ultras. You can usually double expand safely after beating the 4 gate push, but be careful not to overdrone, Toss can make a lot of units very quickly on 4 gates.
If you get ultras out, you've effectively won the game. He'll be unable to push into any of your bases, and you'll have no trouble taking over the whole map.
Its totally possible to mix in roaches at virtually any point in the build, but I'm presently of the mindset that hydra-ling and some spines is really all you need to hold off that initial push.
The second you scout 4 gate, just make a shit ton of speed lings. this works 90% of the time for me. just keep up with queen production on ur two bases and build spine crawlers with your left over minreals. when you defend the push, do a counter push into his mineral line and like i said 90% of the time it works and will really hurt his econ for the rest of the game, but if you cant get into his mineral line you still should have defended it easily. i hardly lose to 4gate.
On August 03 2010 15:49 chekthehek wrote: The second you scout 4 gate, just make a shit ton of speed lings. this works 90% of the time for me. just keep up with queen production on ur two bases and build spine crawlers with your left over minreals. when you defend the push, do a counter push into his mineral line and like i said 90% of the time its gg. i hardly lose to 4gate.
o.O
You're beating 4 gate with pure ling? Would like to see some replays.
On August 03 2010 15:49 chekthehek wrote: The second you scout 4 gate, just make a shit ton of speed lings. this works 90% of the time for me. just keep up with queen production on ur two bases and build spine crawlers with your left over minreals. when you defend the push, do a counter push into his mineral line and like i said 90% of the time its gg. i hardly lose to 4gate.
o.O
You're beating 4 gate with pure ling? Would like to see some replays.
guess i typed it wrong, looks like i did, i didnt not mean exactly beat it, but by making pure speed lings during the first push you can easily defend it with some spine crawlers. ill rewrite my post.
theres no reason why your scouting drone should be dead before seeing 4 gates if he is doing the 4 gate build (speaking as a protoss player). If you can handle microing your drone scout, the toss player will not be using money on a stalker to kill it, the only way they would kill it is an early sentry and by then it should be obvious based on what building he does or does not have that he will throw down another 3 gates or not.
I like to have around 3 spinecrawlers at my natural and add accordingly if his attack is larger than I expected. Having a bunch of lings ready to flank helps tremendously as everything up to immortals (minus zealots) melt to ling surrounds. It's not necessary, but would leave you with enough leftover lings so that you can immediately drone pump right after.
I don't see too many protoss wall off their ramp after an attack so it's a good opportunity to run in with a few lings to grab a few probe kills and get a little scouting information.
Well I took a lot of advice and did another game. I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base.
I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings.
I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late.
I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost.
I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
First, you need to improve the timing of both lair and hydra den. I would skip speedling upgrade in favor of starting lair first. You need to work out your build such that as soon as your second queen finishes, you can start morphing into Lair, then as soon as Lair is done, drop Hydra Den asap. If you have to skip speedling upgrade to do that that is fine. There was a lot of down time there. Compare your Hydra timing to mine in the above replay.
Second, you need to start creep going with either first or second queen. You have to have creep so that your hydras can do a little bit of chasing, and you would get a little more map vision. (See, how I used that in my game.)
Third, before you started Lair, you had a lot of minerals unused. I throw down 1 or 2 crawlers as soon as my expo is done.
Around 9:30 in your replay you were basically dead. I suggest less lings and more hydras. Also, you mis-clicked your army. Your only hydras went to attack the rocks, instead of your enemy. Just do A-move, lol.
Good luck.
Last note, you can sometimes get away with a counter-attack, as many Protoss just assume you can't go around them into their base. (Which is why my game was done in 13 minutes; somewhat lucky on my part but still a good catch and would force him to get off your back for a bit.)
And heh, another thing, once you see him go back a bit, throw down Spire asap as well. You will want to get either Mutas or Corruptors to deal with Collosus.
On August 04 2010 12:07 fdsdfg wrote: Well I took a lot of advice and did another game. I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base.
I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings.
I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late.
I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost.
I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
Roaches in Zvp... NO roaches absolutley suck vs protoss gateway units man and ur proably losing because of the upgrades ?
On August 02 2010 03:01 xDaunt wrote: If you scout 4-gate, just build a bunch of spine crawlers.
Yeah I usually use as many as 6. They're fairly useful against protoss later game anyway and you're pretty much guaranteed to be safe from a 4 gate push. Lots of them will just keep throwing units into you instead of transitioning into a macro game because they don't know how to or don't want to play one.
At which drone count do you normally start with setting up your defense? I've done some 4Gate practice games with my training partner, and it seemed to me that the timing window in which to start up your defense is pretty small. Put the crawlers up too early and you will be behind economically. Put them up too late, and Bad Things™ happen. I'm currently at work, so I can't check my own replays for the drone count that worked for me.
Moreover, I got the impression that it is crucial to adapt to the unit composition of the push. When my practice partner opted for more stalkers, he could just guard them with zealots and the stalkers could pick of my spine crawlers one by one. This again forces me to move out with my units, reducing the efficiency of my static D. Stalkers also nullified the protection by evo-chambers in front of the spine crawlers, since the stalkers range allows to attack the chamber unmolested by the crawlers.
And finally: since it seems to be the current consesus of the community that a higher number of spine crawlers is needed to defend against a 4G-Push, do we agree that it is nigh impossible to hold an expo against this strategy on maps like DO or Agria Valley, because you can't block of the entrance to both expo and main with one bunch of crawlers?
Offtopic: If I could create a little voodoo puppet of an SC2 map, and torture it to my heart's content, Agria Valley would be in for a nasty surprise!
Not sure if this has been stated already cause I haven't read the entire thread, but in the 2nd game you could of placed your spine crawlers a bit better.
I wouldn't suggest sticking one spinecrawler out farther than another as it becomes easier to pick off. Put them in a straight line with some spacing in between them and use your army on the sides of them to push his army more towards the center. When his army begins to wrap around your army they will run into the spine crawlers.
On August 04 2010 22:40 Elyzah wrote: And finally: since it seems to be the current consesus of the community that a higher number of spine crawlers is needed to defend against a 4G-Push, do we agree that it is nigh impossible to hold an expo against this strategy on maps like DO or Agria Valley, because you can't block of the entrance to both expo and main with one bunch of crawlers?
Well, I'm just theorycrafting here, but it seems like if you keep your hydras on the high ground and zerglings behind hsi army, you can come in with the zerglings in the back and force him to decide whether to go into the static D or up the ramp. If he goes up the ramp you get a good concave with your hydras and his stalkers in the back aren't firing at all. If he goes into the crawlers you bring your hydras down and use them to guard the ramp (he's not going to run PAST your hydras, is he)
If a sizable four gate push is approaching, get up some spine crawlers and a couple queens. Have a group of speedlings somewhere away from your base and attack his push from behind with them. Surround the stalkers in the back and the spine crawlers and queens will defend the zealots and sentries quite nicely.
This also prevents the toss player from force field blocking the lings, as they won't be prepared to do this behind their army. Roaches IMO aren't all that helpful in this situation.
On August 05 2010 06:25 SeaSmoke wrote: fdsdfg (WTF is with your name??) has it right.
I love on the phone.. "yeah, foxtrot delta sierra delta foxtrot golf at gmail"
If a sizable four gate push is approaching, get up some spine crawlers and a couple queens. Have a group of speedlings somewhere away from your base and attack his push from behind with them. Surround the stalkers in the back and the spine crawlers and queens will defend the zealots and sentries quite nicely.
This also prevents the toss player from force field blocking the lings, as they won't be prepared to do this behind their army. Roaches IMO aren't all that helpful in this situation.
Edit: typos
I think blocking the spine crawlers is important hear, because speedlings/hydras/crawlers will lose a lot to a zealot-heavy composition, even without charge it's pretty scary, especially if you're trying to chase him down off the creep after pushing him back (i lost hella hydras to this in the second match)
I went roaches because HD Starcraft's tutorial said to do heavy roaches to soak up damage and let the spine crawlers and hydras do their damage. I guess they just don't do the damage you need, and getting close to stalkers means they take a ton of damage.
On August 04 2010 12:07 fdsdfg wrote: Well I took a lot of advice and did another game. I scout the opponent, saw he was going 4gate, and I prepared for it. I put spine crawlers in my natural, got some good roaches and lings, and he decided to make it a contain and expand. I massed up an army with my 2bases figuring that if he's starting to expand I should be able to break through his army.. but I couldn't. His constant pressure meant that my drone count was lower than I wanted it, and I could never get him away from outside my base.
I went roach hydra, and maybe should have transitioned to more zerglings, but I really did not have the resources to go for a spire. He was fairly zealot heavy so I was shy about zerglings.
I did get infestors, but they came out when it was already too late.
I'm really proud of how I played this match, I really didn't make any mistakes and it feels like I played perfectly, but this is a really hard natural to defend, and the opponent made that very clear. We fought on 2base vs 2base for a while until his army was just plain better than mine and I lost.
I'd love any advice on this match, I feel like I have NO idea why I lost.
hey bro
i just beat a guy who was going 4gate -> expand. you want to go mutalisks as soon as he expands because that really contains him and lets you mass up more mutas and get a third. im mid-diamond around 400 rating so i'm eh decent.
i'll watch your replay later, but here is a replay of me beating 4gate -> expand. i even really overdid it on spine crawlers, i think i made 7 of them lool.
i personally dislike hydras since it's really strict on timing and hydras feel soooo fragile. i only ever do hydras if they go phoenix opening, in which case i go hydras since the threat of collosi is much smaller.
simply thumbs down blistering sands if you're having too much trouble since that map is really stupid. no maps should have a backdoor to your main in this state of the game imo.
alright i saw your replay
i'll be completely honest and frank, you just aren't good enough at this game yet. like you just need to play to get a feeling for this game. know when to drone, know when to take your third and know when to attack. you saw his composition, it was gateway combination which i tihnk hydra ling should do fine. then he went immortals,and by that point you just lost more units and didn't have a good enough econ.
you didn't drone hard enough when you saw him expand, you have 3 crawlers yet you had 22 drones when his intial push failed. then he just out econed you while having 4 gated you, you got an expansion earlier but couldn't take advantage of it, just another starcraft mechanic/know what to do thing. you don't really need to come to the forums and ask how to beat a specific strategy, the guy outplayed you so you lost.
you should watch replays of pro players and watch how high their drone counts are and how they just have more stuff then the other player
shouldn't have "expected" gate-core. you need to keep your drone alive as long as possible at least until there's 3 zealots. by then i think... he woulda tried to build 3 more gates which by then you'd know it coming. banelings and roaches. banelings and zerglings. zerglings and roaches. anything but all zerglings will block it then.
Can anyone explain to me how the hell protoss is supposed to beat zerg. I really feel like its impossible. I have done the fast expand move and i have now tried 4 gating all in and i still cant beat zerg. This matchup at the moment seems ridiculously impossible. YOu have to prepare for 6-8 pool and then when you scout the 13 pool and gas you know they are going roach hydro or FE into roach. I really dont understand how you beat this matchup at all. They can also instead do speedling muta after the fast expand if you try and do something besides 4 gate and you lose that also
On August 09 2010 03:15 lightrise wrote: Can anyone explain to me how the hell protoss is supposed to beat zerg. I really feel like its impossible. I have done the fast expand move and i have now tried 4 gating all in and i still cant beat zerg. This matchup at the moment seems ridiculously impossible. YOu have to prepare for 6-8 pool and then when you scout the 13 pool and gas you know they are going roach hydro or FE into roach. I really dont understand how you beat this matchup at all. They can also instead do speedling muta after the fast expand if you try and do something besides 4 gate and you lose that also
If you see roaches just go more stalker heavy and your 4gate push should do just fine.
You can't always play in LT or meta or steppes. Also scrap often allows to make use of towers. DO I don't mention since it's crap map, don't play it and tosses rarely do regular 4gw pushes there.
Now, we're left with delta,xelnaga,blistering and kulas. You simply can't expand pre-lair there to expect to survive early pushes with towers. It's not simple to play zerg and expect to be able to FE nowadays, when FF works like flypaper and nat exps are too wide.
On August 09 2010 03:15 lightrise wrote: Can anyone explain to me how the hell protoss is supposed to beat zerg. I really feel like its impossible. I have done the fast expand move and i have now tried 4 gating all in and i still cant beat zerg. This matchup at the moment seems ridiculously impossible. YOu have to prepare for 6-8 pool and then when you scout the 13 pool and gas you know they are going roach hydro or FE into roach. I really dont understand how you beat this matchup at all. They can also instead do speedling muta after the fast expand if you try and do something besides 4 gate and you lose that also
I usually do a 4 gate push into a fast gold expansion. Then I double robo and do a 4 collosus rush. If it gets past that point, broodlords and ultras just own you silly. Sometimes, I'll switch it up and go double stargate instead of double robo. If you let it go to late game, ultra/broodlord/infestor will own your army.
I really hate this perception that Roaches suck in ZvP.
1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker.
Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50.
While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi.
Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP.
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: reducing the effectiveness of colossi.
i agree that roaches don't suck, and if you turn half your hydras into roaches you're better off, even without colossi - but I hate this perception.
As long as a colossi cna fill its entire beam with roaches, it's at 100% efficiency. Moving all your roaches forward so they can all shoot is not an advantage - otherwise it'd be an advantage to move your hydras forward as if they had range 3.
On August 09 2010 07:41 Jermstuddog wrote: Every shot a colossus takes on a roach line is about 1/4 as effective as the hydra line.
It will do 2 less damage when they have 65 more hp. They cost 1/2 the gas and you generally WANT them to die, especially if it means the hydras don't.
Not to mention they generally force immortals, which lack bang for the buck vs everything else.
The only time roaches aren't good is when you're at max pop, at which point you should have ultras anyway, and there is no comparison there.
I'm not arguing any of this, I'm just saying the idea of having to move your roaches forward and form a 'double-line' is not an advantage. The colossus's beam and what % of potential targets it hits is all that determines efficiency.
Here are two games I just played on Kulas Ravine on the EU ladder.
First one features a 4 gate push, second one a 3 gate robo push.
Just pretty standard stuff to get you going - nothing crazy, nothing really advanced. Just tons of minerals!
edit:
If you have any question on why I would make a certain decision - feel free to ask!
edit2:
also realize that my strategy is 99% the same (in the first 10 mins) in these two games, so if you cant scout the robobay but you know its 4 gate or 3 + robo - this would still work out.
I believe OgerEli stopped a 4gate with relative ease in the latest daily. Go check that out. He ended up losing later on, yes, but he stopped the 4 gate initially.
On August 02 2010 03:34 Froadac wrote: Zerg is by far my weakest race, and I tend to lose to 4 gate when early expanding. Another valid question, is can you sac your expo as zerg (or cancel, w/e) and just hold the ramp, and still be in the game?
This is a fair question... Anyone have definitive data with which to respond?
if you give up your natural he's going to FF your ramp infinitely and rape you dont do that.
Make 4-5 crawlers and get hydras out ASAP, hydras will rape any gateway army(non colossus supported) and with the crawlers you'll hold this off easily
Regarding the newer game posted in the OP: that early game is just brutal.
I'm not going to even mention anything else because you need to fix your drone count first and foremost. The drone count peaked at minute FIVE (25 drones), dwindled to sub-20 through making buildings, and didn't even reach 25 drones again until the 16 minute mark where I stopped watching.
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I really hate this perception that Roaches suck in ZvP.
1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker.
Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50.
While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi.
Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP.
Roaches DO NOT SUCK in ZvP unless you are 200/200
yea but roaches get kited really hard by stalkers w/o roach speed.
Ive found one thing to be godly vs 4 gate. - Nydus. He will be on one base (Most dont expand straight away) - If you can knock out a few probes or even better his cybercore you will shut him down for a while (Without Core the stalkers are stopped and your roaches / banelings can eat his zealots) Even if you manage to kill 5-10 Probes You will stop the 4 gate. he will warp units into his base instead of the proxy this should give you enough time to find the proxy with your overlords or zerglings and hopefully Restock enough to start gaining a economic advantage. If you can start to mass Hydras and get your creep highway built it becomes a lot easier. You can also try double hatchery in your own base if you scout the 4 gate. it allows you to match his unit production.
On August 09 2010 12:18 Scroatal wrote: Ive found one thing to be godly vs 4 gate. - Nydus. He will be on one base (Most dont expand straight away) - If you can knock out a few probes or even better his cybercore you will shut him down for a while (Without Core the stalkers are stopped and your roaches / banelings can eat his zealots) Even if you manage to kill 5-10 Probes You will stop the 4 gate. he will warp units into his base instead of the proxy this should give you enough time to find the proxy with your overlords or zerglings and hopefully Restock enough to start gaining a economic advantage. If you can start to mass Hydras and get your creep highway built it becomes a lot easier. You can also try double hatchery in your own base if you scout the 4 gate. it allows you to match his unit production.
This sounds very interesting, but I fear it would be very much a one shot attempt --- if you're first nydus opening dies, I don't think you have the gas for a second in time, or at least all that gas not bring in your army might gg you...
I don't know, it would obviously force him to be concerned with this base... I agree it can work, but it feels very fragile to me.
On August 09 2010 09:51 CruS wrote: Here are two games I just played on Kulas Ravine on the EU ladder.
First one features a 4 gate push, second one a 3 gate robo push.
Just pretty standard stuff to get you going - nothing crazy, nothing really advanced. Just tons of minerals!
edit:
If you have any question on why I would make a certain decision - feel free to ask!
edit2:
also realize that my strategy is 99% the same (in the first 10 mins) in these two games, so if you cant scout the robobay but you know its 4 gate or 3 + robo - this would still work out.
I watched most of both replays, both are not that informative. The 4gate sits in his base amassing minerals and does almost zero scouting/ aggression.
The 3 gate robo game: I chuckled when he sacrificed his colossi to lings on creep for no reason. Then managed to build up 3500 minerals with something like 140 food.
It just seems like those two games are not very helpful in helping with either build against a player who pushes and then presses their advantage rather than just throwing it away.
For those people looking to a counter to you're specific situation, please realize that every game is different..there is no one general strategy to beating 4gate. It takes a combination of scouting, as well as good decision making to beat it. As for any strategy that is similar to this one.For some people, 1base and getting a couple roaches out will work, for others expanding and defending the expo will work. The best thing any of you as a player can do best to counter it is to realize that there are some trends and patterns you see in this particular build, and then decide on how to exploit the weaknesses of it. For example, he's just made 2gates, and has taken both of his gas's already. Does this mean he's going to 2gate or make another gateway and a cyber core? Clearly more intel is needed, but since you know that he's taken both his gas's, you can leeway that he's gonna make a cybercore and start pumping out stalkers and sentries. Maybe even tech to collosi or immortals before moving out. If you've been 4gated more than once, watch the replays..and write down some common aspects to the builds. Not everyone is going to do the same exact build order, but remember, every build has it's strengths and weakness's.
Hell, maybe you did some mistakes yourself in letting an ovie die, or you get supply blocked (being supply blocked is probably the most common mistake amongst players worldwide.). So maybe there are more things you need to work on yourself before trying to deal with specific all in builds such as this one. If you have solid macro as a zerg, you should be able to stop most things in this game.
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I really hate this perception that Roaches suck in ZvP.
1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker.
Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50.
While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi.
Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP.
Roaches DO NOT SUCK in ZvP unless you are 200/200
Yeah they do. Against pure stalkers, with speed and on creep, roaches do well. Add in zealots and sentries, and the story changes a lot. Speedlings are a lot harder for protoss to deal with than roaches, even though zealots are so strong against zerglings, with speed it becomes very difficult to manage fighting speedlings unless you've created a situation that they're forced to engage.
On August 09 2010 09:51 CruS wrote: Here are two games I just played on Kulas Ravine on the EU ladder.
First one features a 4 gate push, second one a 3 gate robo push.
Just pretty standard stuff to get you going - nothing crazy, nothing really advanced. Just tons of minerals!
edit:
If you have any question on why I would make a certain decision - feel free to ask!
edit2:
also realize that my strategy is 99% the same (in the first 10 mins) in these two games, so if you cant scout the robobay but you know its 4 gate or 3 + robo - this would still work out.
I watched most of both replays, both are not that informative. The 4gate sits in his base amassing minerals and does almost zero scouting/ aggression.
The 3 gate robo game: I chuckled when he sacrificed his colossi to lings on creep for no reason. Then managed to build up 3500 minerals with something like 140 food.
It just seems like those two games are not very helpful in helping with either build against a player who pushes and then presses their advantage rather than just throwing it away.
Hey I never said that my opponent were super good - but the players the OP are facing are probably not better... Presses what advantage? He failed the early push and now he expands..
Long story short -> fast exp + scout + tons of lings + spines + drones + tech + hydra + roach + upgrades + exxxxxp
Before reading, I'd like to point out that I'm *not* a zerg player, I plan on starting today. So this is a completely hypothetical attempt to slow down the 4gate.
You scout with your drone and see the standard pylon/gate/cyber coming in. Would it be a good idea to bring in another drone and with those 2 to pop extractors over his gas/cancel before completion so that the stalkers are delayed and you don't lose any mins? I do realize it is 100 minerals (you don't lose it but you can't really use them either until you cancel) and 2 drones. Would this slow you down more than it would slow them? I figure something like this could be used to help facilitate a build made towards getting mutas, it could give you a few extra minutes or two to get those flyers in and do damage.
If i scout 4 gate I stop teching make sure i have zergling speed get roach warren and 3-5 spine crawlers. Move the slings somewhere they wont be seen on the way to my base, (usually arond 20) Use the roach warren to protect your spine crawlers and lower surface area zealots can attack. As they engage speedlings come in from behind. Once you hold off the 4 gate its basicaly gg.
If the try to expand you have two options take your 3rd and get hydras, or just try and finish it before the expo gets up. If they dont expand they are just going to try to keep sending units. Keep holding with the same stuff and slowlyyyyyyyy tech to hydra to make sure you dont get over run. once you have hydras you win.
Diamond Zerg 400 here. i'm at work so no replay for now.
First of all I scout very early on short rush distance map (9 drone max and ovie on 9) to prevent any cheese and to adapt for 2 gates rushes. If I see one gate cybercore (no chrono boost on Zealot), I usually go 14 pool, 16 hatch. Otherwise, 15 gas, 15 pool into 20ish expand.
First 100 gas --> ling speed Second queen right after the first one finishes. Creep tumor when first queen is transfered to the nat. Depending on the map, second creep tumor at the nat. Second 100 gas --> Lair tech + second extractor Lair is done --> Hydra den (I pump 4-5 hydras max)
I sacc an overlord to see which tech he goes into (let's assume this is 4 gate push)
I drone whore until roughly the 36 supply mark with only 2 zerglings for scouting (1 in front of his ramp, one at the Zel Naga). I poke around to see his army composition (zealot heavy --> more spine, stalker heavy --> more lings).
At roughly 36 supply, I put between 3-5 spine and start doing maaaaaass lings. I put 10-15 of them hidden to see if I can backstab as he leaves his base. You can do that and still be safe as he is forced to warp inside his base to protect and buy you time.
Let him engage the spine crawlers before engage your lings. You want the spine to soak up the damages. Retreat cautiously when he forcefield.
You shoud have between 20 and 30 lings and more on the way when he pushed (and please avoid being supply cap like me when he pushes). Sometimes you can end the game right here with counterattack with your remaining/hatching lings.
After the push you should have several lings left, rouglhy 28-30 drones (he should have 22-24) and 2 bases.
The rest is up to you. Personaly I immediatly expand, put infestation pit and rush tier 3 for the inevitable collosi. But I start wondering if a mutalisk tech switch could take them offguard. Meaning spire instead of hydra den. Any thoughts on that fellow zergs and protoss?
PS : I become suspicious if the push doen't not come aroud the 45-50 supply mark. It could be weird 4 gate / 2 collossi rush. So I scout again to be sure. PS 2 : Some 4 gates pushes can happen really soon and take you off guard. I think particularly about zealot/sentry pushes. So be ready to put spines/pump lings. You will have to stall until spines are done.
4 gates are really hard to defend, but with good map coverage it can be done.
As long as you have a decent army, you won't be in trouble IF (and this is a big if) you can kill the proxy pylon before its done.
Also any kind of faster aggression, since you can have 4-ish roaches when they still only have a zealot or 2 if there really trying to get the 4 gates fast.
On close maps like steppes would it be a viable option to take the gold mineral deposit instead of your natural to hide your expansion. I've had this work against numerous opponents who only found my 2nd expansion late in the game after I had secured my natural.
On August 10 2010 02:09 Moa wrote: On close maps like steppes would it be a viable option to take the gold mineral deposit instead of your natural to hide your expansion. I've had this work against numerous opponents who only found my 2nd expansion late in the game after I had secured my natural.
this is not viable at high level, you should never base a stragey on an opponent making a mistake
If you see 1 gate, core on the way, and gas on the way, automatically assume a 4 gate and prepare accordingly. Early expo is hard to defend without spines, so beware.
On August 09 2010 07:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I really hate this perception that Roaches suck in ZvP.
1 Roach barely loses to 1 Stalker.
Roaches are 75/25 Stalkers are 125/50.
While they deal significantly less damage at a significantly smaller range than hydras, they cause you to have a double-line reducing the effectiveness of colossi.
Yes, Roaches take 4(+1) more damage than hydras do from stalkers, but they also cost half the gas and almost 2x as much HP.
Roaches DO NOT SUCK in ZvP unless you are 200/200
Yeah they do. Against pure stalkers, with speed and on creep, roaches do well. Add in zealots and sentries, and the story changes a lot. Speedlings are a lot harder for protoss to deal with than roaches, even though zealots are so strong against zerglings, with speed it becomes very difficult to manage fighting speedlings unless you've created a situation that they're forced to engage.
Are you kidding? How can you claim roaches work good against stalkers but bad against zlots and opposite for lings? Roaches work great against everything you can build from gateways, ESPECIALLY zealots. I honestly have never lost a game where I've had 100pop+ and mostly roach army and opponent has only had gateways. Roaches are the ultimate counter for gateway units since they can't be countered with HTs and sentries as much as hydras can. I know hydras do sick dps, but roachswarm is often only stoppable by robo units.
So, as far as a basic build order goes, if you scout gate-gas, it's optimal to throw down your expansion as soon as possible? I'd love to get a nice standard opening which can transition smoothly into either early roaches (to hold off two-gate pressure) or a quick expansion to hold off a 4-gate or immortal push or the like,
i think blings are a good/viable option, since it's not insanely high/expensive tech. and they do splash, so 'tis good. I think hydra/ling is also a very viable option.
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