EPTZvP - Beating 4gate? - Page 3
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RawrAnOcean
United States359 Posts
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FallacyGaming
36 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:16 Galneryus wrote: My question is after you stop the 4 gate you want to be in a good position. When should Lair come up for the follow up hydras? if you stop the four gate your in a good position eco wise and usually u can out mass your oppenant 1-2 mins after the intially push. Imo you should get lair just before the first attack then trans to hydras | ||
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TwinHits
United States48 Posts
I like to build a few extra crawlers and then take my speedlings out of the natural off to the side. When the 4 gate push comes in, bring the speedlings around and smash the protoss between the speedlings and crawlers. Usually works pretty well for me, I haven't had anyone try to forcefield it though. | ||
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AT_Tack
Germany435 Posts
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Velr
Switzerland10866 Posts
Game 1 (Xel Naga Caverns): I go Pool --> Expansion with Crawlers/Lings to defend any 4 gate.... He goes Voidray rush, 2 Voidrays come 5 seconds before my Hydra den finishes --> GG (i actually can fight a little on, but it was over). Game 2 (Blistering Sands): I go Fast exe, he goes 2 Gates... I hold it, but Crawlers to the front and went for Mutas... He breaks my back entrence at the moment my first 3 Mutas pop, i had money for 7 but forgot a crucial Overlord. Game 3 (Scrap station): I go fast exe, he goes Phoenix rush with loads of Zealots... I lose tons of Queens/Overlords until enough Hydras/Spores pop... He takes his expansion, goes Carriers... I lose -.- (that was a really retarded game). Game 4 (Xel Naga Caverns): I go 2 Hatch Ling/Baneling... He goes 4 Gates and for the first time in the whole series has 3-4 Sentries ready at his ramp, he even missplaced 2 Forcefields so i could still go in with half my army... One more baneling blast and i would have totally broken, but the last 2 banelings got caged in between 2 forcefields and instead of 4 dead Zealots there were 4 near dead Zealots and 2 Stalkers that picked up my caged army. Later i make a lingrunbye and kill a good amount of probes, he warps in some Zealots/retreats his army to his base and defends it, he attacks my Expansion 20 seconds before 4 Spinecrawlers finish (1 goes up) ---> GG. HATEEEEEEEEE! I wish Zerg would have only half the amount of abusive shit and builds of instant gg that aren't total all-in as Protoss... On the bright side, as i went home from work today i knew i don't feel like laddering today, so... No damage done :p | ||
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BlasiuS
United States2405 Posts
On August 02 2010 03:01 xDaunt wrote: If you scout 4-gate, just build a bunch of spine crawlers. This. force fields essentially counter zerglings, but they don't do shit against spine crawlers. Keep your zerglings outside your nat, then when he attacks your spine crawlers, run in from behind and trap him. | ||
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Easy772
374 Posts
On August 02 2010 02:51 fdsdfg wrote: I just lost a pretty simple ZvP. The P was proficient, but didn't do anything creative or out of the ordinary. He built gate, core, gate gate gate and pushed with the kind of army you'd expect. The match went something like this: -Drone scout saw gate and gas, figured it was gate -> core and I could safely expand -Probe + Pylon delayed expo, sunk extra minerals into some static to put in natural -Overlord scouted cy core chrono boosting, figured some sort of warp in play, zerglings went out to look for a proxy pylon -Protoss pushed out catching a few zerglings, I went back to my base to fight alongside queens and static D. -Fight used forcefields to beat zerglings, and forcefielded my ramp to prevent reinforcements. His army killed my nat and static D and basically won. Now, clearly the P player was good for getting the right army, blocking my expo, using forcefields correctly... but again, nothing here is creative, it's standard proficient play. The push was early enough that I couldn't make use of any T2 units, so really I was on zerglings, roaches, and static defense. Roaches would have been nice for the zealots, but when I see early core I generally go mutaling because if he waits until robo bay to push out, roaches end up being a complete waste. They lose to everything except zealots really. Any advice would be appreciated. Replay: ![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/repimgs/repimg-33-134744.jpg) I've had some trouble with the zerg getting a few mutas for containment purposes and forcing me to either divide my force or base trade.. If the P stays in his base you can out-expand and overwhelm him with hydra/roach/zergling or tech to broods etc.. whatever your style. | ||
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Perturabo
1 Post
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fdsdfg
United States1251 Posts
On August 03 2010 07:23 Perturabo wrote: What would you do in this situation if you had a wide choke point? Lost Temple gives you a nice tight spot to defend with 5-6 crawlers, but if you look at Desert Oasis or something similiar they can just skip the natural and git your main. What would you do here, put 3 up at each location and support with speedlings? It seems very difficult to hold, I've had no luck with it so far. DO has the advantage of like an extra 30 seconds of travel time, that's enough time to get another spawn larvae's round of units, which is a plus. But it is a very difficult natural to defend - I don't know what would work best. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On August 02 2010 23:16 Galneryus wrote: My question is after you stop the 4 gate you want to be in a good position. When should Lair come up for the follow up hydras? I don't know about you but I always get a lair before zergling speed in zvp. Ling speed is always up in time and a lot of tosses like to go DTs, sometimes they 4 gate and proxy a darkshrine so you don't suspect anything. Also, fast overseer means you can scout any of the following builds; -Colossus rush (REALLY sick on the map with the backdoor you literally need mutas to stop them) -Void rays/Pheonixes -DT -3 Gate robo -Blink stalkers So even if he doesn't 4 gate it can give you a heads up as to how many drones you can make and when you need your hydras/mutas. | ||
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zakkssst
Canada19 Posts
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aaroB
Canada89 Posts
even when i do survive the 4gate i just end up dying soon thereafter when the toss transitions to colossi and rapes my entire roach/hydra army. I'm not one to call imba very often (if ever), but in this situation I cannot give any other explanation. It is very hard for the Z early game to know what the protoss is doing with all the options they have available to them (put pressure with zealots/wait for 4gate/ wait for stargate etc) I find that if i prepare for heavy early zealot pressure by getting a few roaches, I just die later on to mass stalker/sentry. If I don't take my expo early, I know I can't win mid game because the p eco will be way ahead of mine and I will be screwed. I have beaten the 4gate a few times, but I honestly think it was probably because the toss was weak or made a lot of mistakes. What I'm currently doing is 15 pool into 20 hatch and getting zling speed soon after. If I see the toss is double gateing and pumping mass zlot ill get a roach warren around 17 and get 4-5 roaches and then throw down my expo. Any extremely radical tips on how to beat this strat are what I'd like to see because roach/sling/crawlers clearly doesnt work against the better players. I've gone down from diamond 4th in my div to 18th by losing to this garbage. Cheers | ||
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EvasivE
United States70 Posts
i think you have plenty of room to improve as a player and i think the better player did win that game. that being said, there are a couple of tactics you can implore to help you, mostly because of teh map (steppes of war is marked as an unwanted for map for 1v1) -get creep to the top of second ramp ASAP -if you are FE against a protoss or terran on this map, you will NEED 3-4 spine crawlers on top of that second ramp to hold off the early-midgame push -zergling/hydra are the best investments for this matchup. they have the highest dps and if the opponent focuses towers, you will be doing maximum dmg to his forces. transitioning into ultras later is a good option considering if the 4 gate doesnt work, protoss will expand and go 4gate 2robo -after holding off the 4 gate get a 3rd asap. you will need it to have a chance at securing a win. all around i feel the map is just a zergs nightmare for this matchup, but there is always something you can do. Know that the general trend on this map for protoss is early aggression. try some of these tactics and i think you may see that your chances are not so bleak. | ||
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Powda
United States116 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On August 03 2010 14:51 aaroB wrote: holy shit. im raging hardcore right now. im like 0-11 today to this bs 4gate crap. any noob can pull that off while the Z player has to bust his ass trying to defend. even when i do survive the 4gate i just end up dying soon thereafter when the toss transitions to colossi and rapes my entire roach/hydra army. I'm not one to call imba very often (if ever), but in this situation I cannot give any other explanation. It is very hard for the Z early game to know what the protoss is doing with all the options they have available to them (put pressure with zealots/wait for 4gate/ wait for stargate etc) I find that if i prepare for heavy early zealot pressure by getting a few roaches, I just die later on to mass stalker/sentry. If I don't take my expo early, I know I can't win mid game because the p eco will be way ahead of mine and I will be screwed. I have beaten the 4gate a few times, but I honestly think it was probably because the toss was weak or made a lot of mistakes. What I'm currently doing is 15 pool into 20 hatch and getting zling speed soon after. If I see the toss is double gateing and pumping mass zlot ill get a roach warren around 17 and get 4-5 roaches and then throw down my expo. Any extremely radical tips on how to beat this strat are what I'd like to see because roach/sling/crawlers clearly doesnt work against the better players. I've gone down from diamond 4th in my div to 18th by losing to this garbage. Cheers I've been singing this tune through this whole thread, but no one wants to listen. =\ I've got two replays posted further back in the thread. I was up at 7th Diamond and dove all the way down into the 80s before I started figuring out this matchup. Now I'm back up to the mid 20s, and gaining ground steadily. I do this: 15 Gas, 15 Pool If I scout anything EXCEPT 2 Gate, I'll throw down my hatch between 16-18. If toss blocks his ramp with cute building placement and 1-3 zealots, you can pretty well count on some sort of 4 gate, or 3 gate/robo push. This doesn't mean stop scouting though. You're going ot have to suicide an overlord or two to be sure. Make sure to get queens up at both bases. My first 100 gas is for ling speed. After about 26-28 supply I get 16-24 lings so that I can always threaten a backstab if he pushes out too soon or leaves his front open or just gets reckless with his units. My second 100 gas is for lair. As lair is morphing, add your 2nd gas. Sprint your ass off to hydras. Keep scouting. 2-4 spines need to go down around the same time as your hydra den. Once its up, you're pumping pure hydra. Unit control determines the outcome of his push. Surround with your lings. His push is over once you take out his forward pylon. If you can clean up his army, you can win here. If he's able to retreat back to his base, you have to spring to Hive for ultras, as you can count on colossus coming out to deal with your hydras. Stay aggressive with your lings. It just takes a second of the toss letting his guard down for you to snipe his natural expo as its morphing in. Always be ready to scarf up any unguarded probes. Keep scouting for cute stuff. Overlord speed should have been researched sometime between when you threw down the hydra den and when you repelled his push. Also, if you repel the push, you have to take a 3rd. You have to have the extra gas for ultras. You can usually double expand safely after beating the 4 gate push, but be careful not to overdrone, Toss can make a lot of units very quickly on 4 gates. If you get ultras out, you've effectively won the game. He'll be unable to push into any of your bases, and you'll have no trouble taking over the whole map. Its totally possible to mix in roaches at virtually any point in the build, but I'm presently of the mindset that hydra-ling and some spines is really all you need to hold off that initial push. | ||
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
On August 03 2010 15:49 chekthehek wrote: The second you scout 4 gate, just make a shit ton of speed lings. this works 90% of the time for me. just keep up with queen production on ur two bases and build spine crawlers with your left over minreals. when you defend the push, do a counter push into his mineral line and like i said 90% of the time its gg. i hardly lose to 4gate. o.O You're beating 4 gate with pure ling? Would like to see some replays. | ||
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chekthehek
United States279 Posts
On August 03 2010 15:55 MrBitter wrote: o.O You're beating 4 gate with pure ling? Would like to see some replays. guess i typed it wrong, looks like i did, i didnt not mean exactly beat it, but by making pure speed lings during the first push you can easily defend it with some spine crawlers. ill rewrite my post. | ||
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t3tsubo
Canada682 Posts
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reprise
Canada316 Posts
I don't see too many protoss wall off their ramp after an attack so it's a good opportunity to run in with a few lings to grab a few probe kills and get a little scouting information. | ||
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