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Aotearoa39261 Posts
UPDATE: Thanks for the replays everyone! You're more than welcome to keep adding them to the thread if you like!
Hello! This is a rather unusual request to make in the strategy forum but I was wondering if people would be willing to share their replays (win or lose) of this build in action. Specifically: 10pylon, 10gate, 12 gas, 15 core, 18gategategate and they try to build pylons in your main while chronoboosting warpgate
Example: http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/sc2_reps/Plexa_vs_Klutch.sc2replay
I am seeking these so that we can improve the Liquipedia page for this topic and that can only be done if there is a wide range data to look at (hence the replays). There were a lot of good replays from beta (particularly Tozar's games) but now that we're in retail we're going to need retail reps!
Any help is appreciated
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Are you looking for specifically "good" or "outstanding" replays or just a bunch or replays with ppl playing that build?
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lol, lots of people was saying that "plexa is working on wrap gate rush count guide".
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On July 31 2010 22:00 peon.power wrote: Are you looking for specifically "good" or "outstanding" replays or just a bunch or replays with ppl playing that build?
just people playing the build, good, bad, amazing, 2 apm. Anything is good
On July 31 2010 22:02 NB wrote: lol, lots of people was saying that "plexa is working on wrap gate rush count guide". Yes and no! It's looking at the build from both sides - I think have an "optimal" response to the build, but working out how to play the build after that or what things can be done differently to make the build more effective are things I need to look at.
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Hihi plexa! u're doing a great job ^_^
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Has anyone found a viable strat against this? I always do 10pylon, 10gate, 12 gas, 15 core, 18gategategate and they try to build pylons in your main while chronoboosting warpgate
because, if i don't, the opponent will do it and i will loose. Tried some stuff but nothing seems to work other then doing yourself an ultrafast warpgate. I even put guys off gas while building gategategate (afterwards put them back). On close rush distance maps (steppes of war) this strat doesn't work. Your opponent will obviously scout it. he will just send 2 zeal kill the pylons in your main.
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As a Protoss player I'll try to help and will try to do this build seeing how effective it is in Diamond ladder. I'll edit my post after a few games (only play during late night).
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It is super effective. I tought all protoss diamond knew about it (and use it).
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On July 31 2010 22:05 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 22:02 NB wrote: lol, lots of people was saying that "plexa is working on wrap gate rush count guide". Yes and no! It's looking at the build from both sides - I think have an "optimal" response to the build, but working out how to play the build after that or what things can be done differently to make the build more effective are things I need to look at. ok, i have not buy sc2 due to exams but in phase 2, i have to say it is 80% unstopable if you do it right.
what make you do it right? 1/saving chrono boost 2/ wall off(partly/totally) ramp using build structure (good on maps like LT or metro) 3/ number of probe mining gas 4/scout timing***
***: scout is really important when you do this build. the scout timing need to be right so that you are not hurt in economy(you basicly sitting ~18 probes) but still can plot the proxy/none-proxy 2 gates zealots pressure. keeping scout alive b4 1st stalker came out also crucial.
now i will start readi the liquid pedia page for moar info :D...
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***: scout is really important when you do this build. the scout timing need to be right so that you are not hurt in economy(you basicly sitting ~18 probes) but still can plot the proxy/none-proxy 2 gates zealots pressure. keeping scout alive b4 1st stalker came out also crucial.
I disagree. You should scout way earlier to see if he is going 2 gate or proxy 2 gate (2 other popular starts). If he is doing so you have to radically change your plans and chronoboost the hell out of zealots to match his number of zealots.
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On July 31 2010 22:56 Anomandaris wrote: It is super effective. I tought all protoss diamond knew about it (and use it). Nope, the Diamond Protoss I face in PvP haven't tried this on me (although I block my ramp off with a probe in case some Protoss canonrush me or wants to scout in my main most of the times). And I haven't seen this play in phase 2 of Beta when I was in Diamond (maybe I'm just lucky or opponent were still too low Diamond/didn't know about this tactic) but I did try this a few times out.
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On July 31 2010 23:11 Anomandaris wrote:Show nested quote + ***: scout is really important when you do this build. the scout timing need to be right so that you are not hurt in economy(you basicly sitting ~18 probes) but still can plot the proxy/none-proxy 2 gates zealots pressure. keeping scout alive b4 1st stalker came out also crucial.
I disagree. You should scout way earlier to see if he is going 2 gate or proxy 2 gate (2 other popular starts). If he is doing so you have to radically change your plans and chronoboost the hell out of zealots to match his number of zealots. how does he know you gona 4 wrap rush so that he gona proxy you? depend on map decided you gate/scout timing. like on step, it easy to getaway with a 10 pylon 10 gate 11/12 scout with a wall at your ramp. remember that if he proxy-ing, you always scout it in time to transition into something different than 4 wrap rush. a good player never "stick" with 1 build that they decided to do b4 the game start. flexibility is what it need to maintain at high level diamond (i dont know about Lz's reapers build in this case but yeah)
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4 warp gate rush Korean Style is so easy to scout. U come in his base. U see he 10 gated. He has no more then 18 probes. He has one gas (maybe probe off gas). he saves chrono. He doesn't make a unit. He has one (maybe 2 pylons) in his base. He chronoboost his cyber. He build 3 extra gates. He build pylons in your main. He warps in and you gg.
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On July 31 2010 22:05 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 22:00 peon.power wrote: Are you looking for specifically "good" or "outstanding" replays or just a bunch or replays with ppl playing that build?
just people playing the build, good, bad, amazing, 2 apm. Anything is good Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 22:02 NB wrote: lol, lots of people was saying that "plexa is working on wrap gate rush count guide". Yes and no! It's looking at the build from both sides - I think have an "optimal" response to the build, but working out how to play the build after that or what things can be done differently to make the build more effective are things I need to look at.
I know you're going to break your counter idea into a separate post or a Liquipedia article, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to beat it. I've had success opening 13-gate, cyber, noting his building timing for an early clue, and then pulling scout probe out of his base before his cyber core finishes. If he's going 4-gate, he doesn't want to build a stalker before his additional gateways, so I can just poke back in with my scout probe 15-30 seconds later and respond. I've found that if you constantly build units off of your gateways before warpgate finishes, you can safely defend against his attack with only 3 gateways. What do you think?
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I have a couple of replays. There are not the best but the last two I played:
http://www.mediafire.com/?5l3okvnfwev1mht http://www.mediafire.com/?3o8pzp4ot3wprlb
In the first game for an unknwon reason I decided to place only one pylon in his main and one outside (in stead of 4 in hi main). In the second I microed quite poorly but the guy tried to take out the pylons with probes (<-mistake). I won both games without a sweat in 6min 30. The first warpin start at 5min25sec. I am currently 400 diamond.
I've found that if you constantly build units off of your gateways before warpgate finishes, you can safely defend against his attack with only 3 gateways. Yeah probably. Dont chronoboost probes however and dont take two gas before you started all your gates. Dont pull guys off mining to take out pylons. Huk defeated Tester(who 4 gate rushed) once out of two in the KOTB. ( http://day9tv.blip.tv/ ). Huk also could hold the 4 gate of nani (game 1: http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/32177901). This start also doesnt seem to work on short rush distance maps (Huk vs Nani game2: http://vodpod.com/watch/4102191-day9-launch-event-game-2-huk-vs-nani)
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 01 2010 03:08 kcdc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 31 2010 22:05 Plexa wrote:On July 31 2010 22:00 peon.power wrote: Are you looking for specifically "good" or "outstanding" replays or just a bunch or replays with ppl playing that build?
just people playing the build, good, bad, amazing, 2 apm. Anything is good On July 31 2010 22:02 NB wrote: lol, lots of people was saying that "plexa is working on wrap gate rush count guide". Yes and no! It's looking at the build from both sides - I think have an "optimal" response to the build, but working out how to play the build after that or what things can be done differently to make the build more effective are things I need to look at. I know you're going to break your counter idea into a separate post or a Liquipedia article, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on how to beat it. I've had success opening 13-gate, cyber, noting his building timing for an early clue, and then pulling scout probe out of his base before his cyber core finishes. If he's going 4-gate, he doesn't want to build a stalker before his additional gateways, so I can just poke back in with my scout probe 15-30 seconds later and respond. I've found that if you constantly build units off of your gateways before warpgate finishes, you can safely defend against his attack with only 3 gateways. What do you think? You can check liquipedia for that at the moment!
On August 01 2010 03:38 Anomandaris wrote:I have a couple of replays. There are not the best but the last two I played: http://www.mediafire.com/?5l3okvnfwev1mhthttp://www.mediafire.com/?3o8pzp4ot3wprlbIn the first game for an unknwon reason I decided to place only one pylon in his main and one outside (in stead of 4 in hi main). In the second I microed quite poorly but the guy tried to take out the pylons with probes (<-mistake). I won both games without a sweat in 6min 30. The first warpin start at 5min25sec. I am currently 400 diamond. Show nested quote +I've found that if you constantly build units off of your gateways before warpgate finishes, you can safely defend against his attack with only 3 gateways. Yeah probably. Dont chronoboost probes however and dont take two gas before you started all your gates. Dont pull guys off mining to take out pylons. Huk defeated Tester(who 4 gate rushed) once out of two in the KOTB. ( http://day9tv.blip.tv/ ). Huk also could hold the 4 gate of nani (game 1: http://www.mefeedia.com/watch/32177901). This start also doesnt seem to work on short rush distance maps (Huk vs Nani game2: http://vodpod.com/watch/4102191-day9-launch-event-game-2-huk-vs-nani) Thanks! Will check them out
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Hey, if you're still looking for replays, here's one. First time I tried it, so it's not that crisp overall, but it improved my weak PvP a lot.
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Even I have trouble countering this build. I've quit doing the 4 warpgate rush because I want to actually get better at PvP. Doing this over and over again really hurt my game once other people figured it out.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Looks like you linked the same game twice! I know this build is stupidly popular on SEA atm
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Here's mine - could have been slicker as my chrono on the warpgate tech was a little lackluster. I also didn't really scout.
http://sc2.replayers.com/replays/view/1325
I should add that you MUST NOT FORGET TO TAKE YOUR GUYS OFF GAS! I couldn't figure out why I couldn't warp any zealots in in one game, then noticed my 400 gas
Oh, and I am high platinum but probably just low gold skill - I've been lucky with alot of failbust zergs.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Awesome thanks guys! Keep 'em coming!
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How are you able to build pylons in your opponent's main after 4 gates?
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If you scout early on and they don't react to your probe, just hide it in a corner of their base. If they didn't pay attention, they won't notice it until it's too late.
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If you scout early on and they don't react to your probe, just hide it in a corner of their base. If they didn't pay attention, they won't notice it until it's too late. Not true. You build the pylons before there stalker comes out. The zealot can't do anything against the probe. You don't even have to hide your pylons. Just put for of them spread across his main and cancel the one he is attacking at the last moment.
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rofl @ 2nd game. Nice scout by the blue player. hahahah
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This is a replay of my first and only 4gate:
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=134990
I even started walling off the WRONG ramp, then proceeded to fail in walling off the ramp I needed to, and still won easily. It's sad how easy this strat is.
Edit: and the guy mentions that he just lost to this strat in a tourney earlier in the day... sigh
Edit 2: LOL! Per two posts below mine, there are now two replays in this thread of vengee getting beat by the 4gate... sorry man!
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What was wrong with my defense plexa???
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wouldnt a standard 2 gate push kill this because i would for sure, 4 zealots would be pounding your base when you are warping those 3 gate' s in.
Is this tactic viable against only protoss? Or with a sneaky scout also against terran?
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lol @MadMike you have no idea haha just the worst day of sc2 for me ever lol. I was 70 win% now im 50 after one day of pure losing. Oh well thats how she goes
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poor vengee...
I checked match history and found some PvP games were you went 13 gate to stalker. By then I already knew what I was going to do.
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On August 02 2010 21:24 JDeathmetal wrote: wouldnt a standard 2 gate push kill this because i would for sure, 4 zealots would be pounding your base when you are warping those 3 gate' s in.
Is this tactic viable against only protoss? Or with a sneaky scout also against terran?
I used this build a lot during beta and experimented with it to see how it could be implemented against zerg and terran. I managed to get into lead in my diamond divison with it. Zerg was always a lot of trouble, but it was quite possible against terran. I had to hide pylon(s) outside terrans base instead of inside, and attack on first or second warp (4-8 units, mixed zealot/stalker/sentry), and just keep pounding away relentlessly with new warp ins. The key was to have good timing before he could amass enough marauders/tanks to defend the choke, and be on the lookout for reaper harass so I could delay a gate and build stalker in base instead.
What stopped me in pvp was a mirror build where he built his units in his base and had early stalkers, or went 3 gate robo with very good micro and scouting.
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will try it out just a standard push or a specific unit comp?
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Ok I died to this yesterday, I was able to kill first pylon in my base but then the pylon was built right in front of my base. Trying to hold it off with less gateways is impossible and while you are engaging his zealots the freaking probe will build 3-5 pylons in your base -.-;;;;;; I think next time I see this I will match his gateway numbers -.-;;;;
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't all replays from the beta not work anymore?
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Lol, can't we just mirror the build to defend against it?
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On August 03 2010 05:40 spark19725 wrote: Lol, can't we just mirror the build to defend against it?
I'm assuming you mean that you go 4 warpgate but warp in in your own base? The problem is that the battle will be in your mineral line. Your economy will be harassed and it will be a battle of who's got the best micro. Altough, you will save the minerals your opponent spends on the proxy pylons. That's what it looked like in Torzans replays. He faced the same guy 3 times if I remember correctly where his opponent tried to mirror him but failed.
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Okay, I'm not home right now so I can't upload the reps I have of easily stopping this... But.
9pylon (near choke, scout) 12gate (start walling choke) 14assim 16pylon by now it's apparant if ur opponent is doing it. -core as soon as gate finishes (add to choke wall, on small ramp/choke maps this will finish your wall, and by wall I mean leaving a 1 hex gap) -cut probes for a sec to afford zealot asap, chrono it and chase scouting probe UNTIL it drops a pylon. - pylon & gateway, by now it's 100% if he's doing it the warpgate cheese or not, if he is, wall yourself in completely. - stalker asap after the zealot, chrono it, target probe first and kill it asap. Obviously after this keep building stalkers and a sentry in terms of build order. In your base, he shouldve got at most 4 pylons building and if that's the case, his warpgate isn't very close to completing. After the zealot is off on that first pylon, drag 4 probes off mining for each pylon placed, and obviously go for the healthiest ones with your stalkers And zealot to help bring them down.
After you kill the pylons, you're ahead. Build a robo and obs it up is my advice. He cuts sooo many probes to do this build he's almost forced to go with another cheesy or allin type attack, so just scout it out and play a normal solid pvp.
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Nono 2gate! You should be able to get all the pylons in ur base and near your ledge b4 he can warp shit in with them, And then u have your solid wall + sentry ff to help you hold. If he's just throwing mass zealot at you hold with FF + wall, if it's stalker delay with ff and pump immo asap from robo skipping obs.
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I've seen BigT crush this strategy a few times. He always goes 10/10 pylon/gateway and chronos zealots to harass and pressure. Last game he beat this was on kulas I think and cross map positioning. He marched a stream of zealots to the opponent base and destroyed him. He had no units to defend at all. The guy even said that this was the first time he lost with that strategy.
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On August 02 2010 21:24 JDeathmetal wrote: wouldnt a standard 2 gate push kill this because i would for sure, 4 zealots would be pounding your base when you are warping those 3 gate' s in.
Is this tactic viable against only protoss? Or with a sneaky scout also against terran? It works against zerg. If u spot them 14 pool and expand you can do it easily.
And yeah ive done it occassionally cos pvp is so boring.
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I have two inquiries. First, if you play random and spawn as protoss, can you assume a drawn out macro game in PvP because your opponent isn't likely to try an all-in build against you (like the Korean 4gate style) or do most people send an earlier scout versus random? Second, how well do cheese strategies work against 4warpgate? I feel like a cannon rush or a proxy 2gate would work nicely.
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On August 04 2010 23:54 maekuuu wrote: I have two inquiries. First, if you play random and spawn as protoss, can you assume a drawn out macro game in PvP because your opponent isn't likely to try an all-in build against you (like the Korean 4gate style) or do most people send an earlier scout versus random? Second, how well do cheese strategies work against 4warpgate? I feel like a cannon rush or a proxy 2gate would work nicely.
Proxy 2gate or even regular 2gate on a fast rush distance map (Steppes etc.) seems like a strong counter to this.
I don't feel like a cannon rush would work because he can just chrono out zealots and build gates earlier.
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I was at 100% PvP in mid-high diamond on US Server for a good bit with this style. Even with very heavy mistakes I have been able to pull off easy wins.
I lost my first PvP yesterday or two days ago against a pretty aggressive 2 gate. My opponent played really well through the whole game and did have to work a lot harder than me to pull off the win. It seems like fast presure with either a 10pylon/10gate or just 2 gating with a close rush distance has given me the most trouble. I'm not sure if this strat just isn't well known on US servers or I'm playing baddies but very few people change up their game plan even after scouting all the tell-tale signs.
However, I have never lost to a toss that tries to kill my pylons. You can pull probes and rally chrono'd zealots to it all day but the 4 gate can recover so easily. Between sending a new probe over or keeping the inital probe alive you can pull off some nice tricks. Once I'm off work maybe I can pull this replay as it really shows how much room for error you have. even after losing my probe and 2 pylons in his base (1 killed 1 canceled) I was able to get a new probe in, drop a pylon outside his base, let the probe give me high ground vision to let me warp inside his base, and with 4 zealots in i could kite my new probe around and drop the pylons around the base all over again. His only chance of stopping me was lining his zealots up on his ramp and blocking the new probe but at that time his zealots were still running around dealing with the initial pylon/probe. Again, a lot of this has to deal with rush distance and the fact that I could get a new probe outside his base quite quickly.
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Does anyone build pylons inside the enemy's base if they're Terran or Zerg?
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On August 05 2010 05:04 wuddersup wrote: Does anyone build pylons inside the enemy's base if they're Terran or Zerg?
I have a hard time building pylons in the base of anyone especially Terran. People who are aware of this strategy frequently scout every inch of their base until they have their ramp walled/guarded. I say especially Terran because I can never get back in as they always wall up asap. As for Zerg I have yet to try this on them. But I can imagine they would scout their base with any idle zergling or 2nd overlord or something else.
Take my thoughts with a grain of salt as SC2 is my first competitive RTS. Although I hope my points are still seen as valid. Hopefully I'm missing something as I would like to be able to stay alive with a probe inside someone's base without relying on mindgames because that won't work very often versus high tier players. When I say mindgames I mean on your probe movement to seem nosey instead of going up ramp, disappearing, then scouting and leaving. Or some fake buildings you throw up in front of a scout only to cancel them after it is dead.
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I just played a game against this build - i went 12gate 15gate/15cyber double stalker, I killed the scouting probe, but he got a hidden pylon in my base. I sent my first 2 stalkers to his base. When he started warping zealots into my minerals, i just sent the next 4 stalkers, along with all my probes, to his base. Depowered his gates and cleaned up with stalker micro, planting a new nexus at his natural >.>
EDIT: heres the replay - about 300 point diamond match PvP
http://www.mediafire.com/?qfr68argc18t87q
rewatching the replay, I could've depowered the gates earlier, i didnt realize how close the pylon was to dying lol
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On August 05 2010 04:24 Miraqle wrote: I was at 100% PvP in mid-high diamond on US Server for a good bit with this style. Even with very heavy mistakes I have been able to pull off easy wins.
I lost my first PvP yesterday or two days ago against a pretty aggressive 2 gate. My opponent played really well through the whole game and did have to work a lot harder than me to pull off the win. It seems like fast presure with either a 10pylon/10gate or just 2 gating with a close rush distance has given me the most trouble. I'm not sure if this strat just isn't well known on US servers or I'm playing baddies but very few people change up their game plan even after scouting all the tell-tale signs.
However, I have never lost to a toss that tries to kill my pylons. You can pull probes and rally chrono'd zealots to it all day but the 4 gate can recover so easily. Between sending a new probe over or keeping the inital probe alive you can pull off some nice tricks. Once I'm off work maybe I can pull this replay as it really shows how much room for error you have. even after losing my probe and 2 pylons in his base (1 killed 1 canceled) I was able to get a new probe in, drop a pylon outside his base, let the probe give me high ground vision to let me warp inside his base, and with 4 zealots in i could kite my new probe around and drop the pylons around the base all over again. His only chance of stopping me was lining his zealots up on his ramp and blocking the new probe but at that time his zealots were still running around dealing with the initial pylon/probe. Again, a lot of this has to deal with rush distance and the fact that I could get a new probe outside his base quite quickly. With my way of stopping it youre walled out of my base (a new probe can't get in), and the 2+ stalkers would kill the below ramp pylon before you had time to warp in units.
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On August 05 2010 06:49 susySquark wrote:I just played a game against this build - i went 12gate 15gate/15cyber double stalker, I killed the scouting probe, but he got a hidden pylon in my base. I sent my first 2 stalkers to his base. When he started warping zealots into my minerals, i just sent the next 4 stalkers, along with all my probes, to his base. Depowered his gates and cleaned up with stalker micro, planting a new nexus at his natural >.> EDIT: heres the replay - about 300 point diamond match PvP http://www.mediafire.com/?qfr68argc18t87qrewatching the replay, I could've depowered the gates earlier, i didnt realize how close the pylon was to dying lol
Well done. 2 fast stalker really seem to work very nice vs this build.
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On August 05 2010 07:41 AWESOME1337 wrote: Well done. 2 fast stalker really seem to work very nice vs this build.
I've found that the fast stalkers are one of the safest builds against T's and P's - it provides a good defense to most early aggression, and if they're being passive, you have some great units with which to poke around with.
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Do you think it is possible to just totally deny his probe entry to your base?
8 pylon, 10 gate. You can do this wall, hold position with probe, then when he starts killing it, build a pylon to wall it off. Once your zealot pops you can cancel the pylon and hold position with zealot. If you get the first hit with your probe, which you should if he's just moving (not a-moving), it shouldn't be necessary to wall since you will kill his probe 1v1.
Just thinking here.. no idea if it is effective.
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On August 05 2010 14:06 dreamfield wrote:Do you think it is possible to just totally deny his probe entry to your base? 8 pylon, 10 gate. You can do this wall, hold position with probe, then when he starts killing it, build a pylon to wall it off. Once your zealot pops you can cancel the pylon and hold position with zealot. If you get the first hit with your probe, which you should if he's just moving (not a-moving), it shouldn't be necessary to wall since you will kill his probe 1v1. Just thinking here.. no idea if it is effective.
If memory serves me right, your opponent can just click to mine the mineral field in your base and it'll walk right through your positioned probe.
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Pretty sure you have to have vision of the minerals (also, meant 9 pylon, not 8).
Edit: shit.. lmao, just tried it and you don't even need vision of the minerals like in SC1. Forget that, then...
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On August 05 2010 06:49 susySquark wrote:I just played a game against this build - i went 12gate 15gate/15cyber double stalker, I killed the scouting probe, but he got a hidden pylon in my base. I sent my first 2 stalkers to his base. When he started warping zealots into my minerals, i just sent the next 4 stalkers, along with all my probes, to his base. Depowered his gates and cleaned up with stalker micro, planting a new nexus at his natural >.> EDIT: heres the replay - about 300 point diamond match PvP http://www.mediafire.com/?qfr68argc18t87qrewatching the replay, I could've depowered the gates earlier, i didnt realize how close the pylon was to dying lol
I just watched the replay and very nice work but your opponent did make a few obvious mistakes, adding up to cost him the game.
1. He didn't chrono boost his Warpgate tech as soon as possible and every possible time (not that big of a deal)
2. He mined his vespene gas to about 268 instead of just 50 gas. (Would have had a lot more minerals to spend on zealots and could double pyloned his gates)
3. He didn't wall off his base with the gates/cyber. This is by far the biggest mistake I saw as it let you walk right in. Otherwise you would have had to either spend the time to get through the wall, or have to walk all the way back to your base to defend, either of which would result in too much time wasted and him winning.
That was good though, it seems like a good defense against someone who hasn't perfected it yet. But may I suggest making sure he doesn't get his pylon in your base. The biggest defense is to regularly scout your base until you have a stalker/zealot to watch the ramp. Once he get's his pylon in your base it's game over if he does everything else right.
good stuff though (great decision on saving up 400 for nexus and attacking with probes)
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On August 05 2010 16:36 VERMM wrote: I just watched the replay and very nice work but your opponent did make a few obvious mistakes, adding up to cost him the game.
1. He didn't chrono boost his Warpgate tech as soon as possible and every possible time (not that big of a deal)
2. He mined his vespene gas to about 268 instead of just 50 gas. (Would have had a lot more minerals to spend on zealots and could double pyloned his gates)
3. He didn't wall off his base with the gates/cyber. This is by far the biggest mistake I saw as it let you walk right in. Otherwise you would have had to either spend the time to get through the wall, or have to walk all the way back to your base to defend, either of which would result in too much time wasted and him winning.
That was good though, it seems like a good defense against someone who hasn't perfected it yet. But may I suggest making sure he doesn't get his pylon in your base. The biggest defense is to regularly scout your base until you have a stalker/zealot to watch the ramp. Once he get's his pylon in your base it's game over if he does everything else right.
good stuff though (great decision on saving up 400 for nexus and attacking with probes)
I agree that I should've scouted the pylon. I saw his probe wander into my base, but I didn't think it had ever wandered out of sight long enough to place a pylon - whoops.
A walloff at the front would've definitely helped him, I agree. I dont think the high gas count hurt him too much - actually he could've done a lot better by warping in stalkers to defend instead of zealots with that extra gas.
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Was on Gold level he placed a pylon infront of my main and i had to defend it
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 05 2010 15:13 chocoed wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 14:06 dreamfield wrote:Do you think it is possible to just totally deny his probe entry to your base? 8 pylon, 10 gate. You can do this wall, hold position with probe, then when he starts killing it, build a pylon to wall it off. Once your zealot pops you can cancel the pylon and hold position with zealot. If you get the first hit with your probe, which you should if he's just moving (not a-moving), it shouldn't be necessary to wall since you will kill his probe 1v1. Just thinking here.. no idea if it is effective. If memory serves me right, your opponent can just click to mine the mineral field in your base and it'll walk right through your positioned probe. Last time I tried this it failed, I think they patched it. Nevertheless, a pylon in your natural serves the same effect. You're still going to have to deal with a ton of zealots really quickly (which is hard to stop!)
On August 05 2010 07:41 AWESOME1337 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2010 06:49 susySquark wrote:I just played a game against this build - i went 12gate 15gate/15cyber double stalker, I killed the scouting probe, but he got a hidden pylon in my base. I sent my first 2 stalkers to his base. When he started warping zealots into my minerals, i just sent the next 4 stalkers, along with all my probes, to his base. Depowered his gates and cleaned up with stalker micro, planting a new nexus at his natural >.> EDIT: heres the replay - about 300 point diamond match PvP http://www.mediafire.com/?qfr68argc18t87qrewatching the replay, I could've depowered the gates earlier, i didnt realize how close the pylon was to dying lol Well done. 2 fast stalker really seem to work very nice vs this build. To my knowledge, Kowi has been using this build since the start of retail. It's an extremely effective counter to this build - details are written up on liquipedia.
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I always do a normal 9 pylon, 12 gate fast stalker build with no zealots unless needed.
With my first scout, I noted the 10-gate with fast gas and saved chronoboost, and expected the push. I immediately chronoboosted a zealot to start taking out pylons, then an immediate stalker and 2nd gateway. I easily took out the probe and 3 pylons before they could finish warping in.
Obviously there's room for both of us to do better-- he could've made more pylons, or pylons earlier, but I think if you get an early zealot and chronoboost nothing but units (maybe even delaying warpgate), you should be able to hold it off well.
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About the double fast stalker: this strat is so easily scouted that I doubt its effectiveness. If you do the Korean style 4 gate you will have to adapt of course.
With my first scout, I noted the 10-gate with fast gas and saved chronoboost, and expected the push. I immediately chronoboosted a zealot to start taking out pylons, then an immediate stalker and 2nd gateway. I easily took out the probe and 3 pylons before they could finish warping in. Never happened to me before. I don't think you should count to much on it. I even saw people using probes + 2 zealots+ stalker to take out all the pylons in their base and it didn't succeed.
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What exactly do you do if they decide they are gonna two gates chronoboost zealots into your base? I hadnt made any units and just made a pylon in his and here come his zealots. should i just warp in and try and kill the ones in my base or what?
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What exactly do you do if they decide they are gonna two gates chronoboost zealots into your base? I hadnt made any units and just made a pylon in his and here come his zealots. should i just warp in and try and kill the ones in my base or what? Once you see a 2 gate zealot pressure you match his number of gateways and pump zealots. You will have to adapt your build
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so i have go over this thread once again and people are having quite interesting ideas. First of all, i like the idea of blocking the scout using pylon gate as wall and 1 probe block. I played against it before and i crushed it HARD so i hope more people to used it against me. simply by 1 probe block, you make your stalker stuck in base
2nd, i would like to point out the fact that this strat is not consider as a cheese or all-in. in fact, its really safe as soon as you can keep your scout alive. You will alternate your build anytime you feel a risk on this and countinue to produce pylon + probes in base. simply that you will slightly behind in probe counts but on most map, that different will be cut in the moving distant between bases.
3rd, weird on how people are not mentioning voidrays. I wana see some one try it. 4th, plexa, contact meif you are interested ? i have a plan on Protoss =)
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There is no way that guy is rank 3 diamond... he scouted the correct way, missed you, and then just assumed he knew what base you were in.... he had like 8 probes. I am going to guess he was silver or gold.
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Any more replays how to defend and beat this cheese build?
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On August 06 2010 01:58 imPERSONater wrote: There is no way that guy is rank 3 diamond... he scouted the correct way, missed you, and then just assumed he knew what base you were in.... he had like 8 probes. I am going to guess he was silver or gold.
Keep in mind the SEA server, it isn't the strongest server cluster (Hell, I'm in diamond there now).
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