On July 15 2010 10:28 Tazza wrote: Yeah I hate it when they use helion controll in the beginning to make me make lots of lings and more queens. Then the terran gets his natural. And u basically have to play a long game. I found out that mass roaches work well against mech though. Roaches are the tank unit of zerg, the only ground unit vs tanks that dont die in one shot (except ultras)
On July 15 2010 10:28 Tazza wrote: Yeah I hate it when they use helion controll in the beginning to make me make lots of lings and more queens. Then the terran gets his natural. And u basically have to play a long game. I found out that mass roaches work well against mech though. Roaches are the tank unit of zerg, the only ground unit vs tanks that dont die in one shot (except ultras)
Queens don't die in one shot.
hydras don't either lol whats the point? everything cept ultras melt to tanks.
but to answer OP, do drops, split their forces, distract them, and scout always to catch em while theyre moving
On July 15 2010 10:28 Tazza wrote: Yeah I hate it when they use helion controll in the beginning to make me make lots of lings and more queens. Then the terran gets his natural. And u basically have to play a long game. I found out that mass roaches work well against mech though. Roaches are the tank unit of zerg, the only ground unit vs tanks that dont die in one shot (except ultras)
Queens don't die in one shot.
hydras don't either lol whats the point? everything cept ultras melt to tanks.
but to answer OP, do drops, split their forces, distract them, and scout always to catch em while theyre moving
That's for pure mech. He's dealing with bio mech which has a really early strong push. . .Hum. Maybe he should try to scout better then prepare roaches, drops, mutas, or something. Also any harass like banelings/ mutas that can keep him pinned in his base is a plus.
Too answer the OP : You change your race to Protoss. (or Terran)
Seriously on certain maps like Kulas, Incineration Zone and Blistering I really feel your best bet is to play your second best race. If you feel like TvT might be more your forte give it a go. Losing on those maps just frustrates me, and I'm sure it frustrates you. So feel free to attempt to play T or P. Everyone else already is.
On July 15 2010 10:50 Sheth wrote: Too answer the OP : You change your race to Protoss. (or Terran)
Seriously on certain maps like Kulas, Incineration Zone and Blistering I really feel your best bet is to play your second best race. If you feel like TvT might be more your forte give it a go. Losing on those maps just frustrates me, and I'm sure it frustrates you. So feel free to attempt to play T or P. Everyone else already is.
Those maps are really really imbalanced towards anything but zerg.
burrowed roaches are also pretty good. I find that more often than not, terrans are overconfident in their ability to scan, even after you've already hit them with roaches or maybe infestors in their mineral line. Going muta isn't bad either if you jump to their main to harass while they're out of position or catching the odd reinforcing tank. Playing muta against thors works similarly to vs tank play. Just don't attack them unless they're out of position and keep them bouncing back and forth so that they're afraid to push out. Like everyone's saying, don't just A move into their fortifications. They can afford to be lazy and leave their stuff sieged, but it's your job to make them pay for that laziness. Be creative and never give up!
I said "or maybe two factories". Hellions aren't really a problem so let's not discuss them further. My problem is basically dealing with Bio Mech; Seige Tanks and Marines/Marauders. They can push early and it's a very strong push and hard to deal with because of the timing at which it comes, and it they don't push, it basically guarantees that they will get their natural, mass up an even bigger army, and then hit me before I can get my third (or at least feel any benefit from it).
On July 15 2010 10:06 Crushgroove wrote: Siege Tanks I have no trouble with, burrowed infestors and blings, xplode the blings, run in with lings, Launch a bunch of infested terrans into the middle of the tanks, unborrow the infestors, parasite a few of the tanks, run in more units if necessary.
It requires one thing though: map control.
If you don't have map control you can't set up any kind of a flank/ambush/counter and in a straight on 1a2a3a fight you will always lose. Never fight them on their terms, make them walk into yours.
On the other hand, even with macro advantage, tech advantage, resource advantage, and supply count advantage, I've no way to definitively beat a Terran on 2 bases who is pumping mech (if the mech includes thors). I've tried everything. I've even let a Terran player I beat remain alive in game, let him tech up, I had a 200/200 army just waiting for him and I STILL couldn't win. Its really awful how one sided it is. Not saying that its broken, just saying that NO ONE has been able to prove there's a way to do it yet.
Edit: trying to figure out how to upload a replay of that last scenario now. I seriously just let him remain in the game to make some mech, and I was waiting for him and still couldn't do it. Its possible... I even used some ultras... but its way way way harder than "balanced".
Mech 200/200 Army>Zerg 200/200 army.
Zerg reproduction rate of units>Terran (Mech) reproduction.
So by this, you should be able to get out a new army faster than the terran can, and you should be able to do this enough. And keep vomiting larva, you can have like 12+ larva on one hatch (i believe) and can churn out units by the masses. or the swarm.
On July 15 2010 10:58 BaaL` wrote: Replay or this is going nowhere.
It sounds like you're dealing with a very very standard terran early game push, to which the answer could be a hundred different things. But since you are saying you are having a lot of trouble finding just one solution, it could be that there's a major flaw inherent in your build that leaves you open or a mechanical error such as not injecting larva (an example, I'm not saying that's it).
But it will all be baseless speculation without a replay.
What I have a lot of success with against bio+tanks is roach/ling/infestor
The goal in the early game is to expand fairly fast. Either 14pool15 hatch or anything in that sort. Another option is to do that sort of 14 poo, very fast gas to get ling speed and get some lings out before you expand.
Let's say I scouted he's doing some sort of marine/tank/x push, and opening with hellions, I add a roach warren, get 3-4 roaches to fend off hellions, and start pumping drones.
Next step is lair, get 2nd gas, after lair immediatly put down an infestation pit, when this finishes you have the option to get neural parasite if you prefer this or if he goes thors.
And get roach speed.
I do this instead of getting early upgrades
I keep tabs on his unit counts etc, and I don't overpump drones in my expo untill i'm sure he's expo'ing, else I start pumping out roach/ling for his incoming push (and you should have already made 2-3 infestors for getting their energy up.
You need to start moving out when he moves out, don't let him siege your nat, and send out a ling now and then or keep sight on him with overlords, you just need to catch him unsieged, the moment he does that it's getting in your stuff before they are fully sieged and use fungal growth to try to get his marines a bad spot and soften those up.
if he has a high marine count you can add in banelings. If he is going more tank add more roach/ling.
Afterwards if I can stop it, try to get some lings in his nat if he put that up in meanwhile because he will have very low defenses.
Add OL speed and drop or get burrow, expand, and get upgrades.
The rest of the game is abusing mobility, getting neural parasite if he goes thors, try to expand while keeping him on 2 bases, and use drops/burrow etc if he manages to get a third.
When you have a third up etc get hive and go ultra's or broodlords.
Infestor/lings can deal with drops, infestor/queens for some lone vikings, and if he goes banshee's get a hydra den up.
If he at some points starts skipping AA such as going marauder/tank/thor hellion to deal with roaches/fungal growth get a good pack of muta's up.
That is basicly my overall gameplan against T's that do that these days.
And I have "some" success with it as far as I have tested this (but I guess this is mostly due to the T's I go against on ladder don't seem to have an idea on how to follow up after their failed push). But if he is good, it's a hard battle from start to end.
Speedlings work very well against this early push. Burrowed units are very underused and i don't understand why. If you burrow zerglings of where the push is coming from, you can unburrow when the tanks are sieged or unsieged to do massive damage to them. You toss in a few banelings if he's got more bio then tanks.
The key is surround. Surrounding units with the speed of zerglings will murder. Seperating your zerglings into two small groups so one can attack from the front and one from behind. For example, if you're playign steppes of war, you can put one group in your nat, one near the watchtower, and one zerglings in the middle to spot incoming rushes. The moment that zerglings dies. Prepare the second group to rush the tanks from behind when they siege, or hesitate at the ramp. Get the zerglings to the front and surround them. Creep helps wonders too.
This is all from a Terran player that find these things hard to deal with. So, I also might be wrong in my assumptions about how to counter this push as a Zerg.
if the Terran player is playing from one base, I do the muta->exp build that sen have used. mutas+lings with few banelings. if you waste banelings you are wasting gas.
Well, marine tank can be killed with muta-bane, if you kill enough marines mutas do the rest.
The tough build is to play against a mech terran, i mean thor tank, I recommend open mutas, to force him to make thors instead of tanks, if you can hold him enough you can get at least ur natural and the gold against his natural only, then you just need to tech to broodlords while denying as long as possible his 3rd/push, this can be done with drops normally, in some maps is more difficult like kulas ravine, i usually go faster broodlords or take a lot of expoes instead of the 3 usual.
On July 15 2010 10:07 FC.Strike wrote: Cool (one of the best in the game) uses mass roach to deal with Terran mech along with baneling drops to kill the marines.
Without replays, I find it hard to give any more useful advice. Go watch Cool's VoDs vs. Maka from the 17173 world cup and upload some of your own replays.
This is what I've found to be the most problematic thing for me when going marine/tank. I've had a lot of trouble vs roach/baneling with maybe a handful of mutas to force me to make rines. Roaches are still ridiculously strong for their cost, so as long as you expand like crazy or tech to hive which forces T to push you won't get stuck with 200/200 roach ball vs 200/200 biomech army. Basically, you need to force terran to push before he's unstoppable.
I've had a lot of success in p2 with speedling + ultra + 2-3 infestors with NP. Speedlings with basically die to the tank fire very quickly but the ultras should be able to clean up quite quickly with a good fungal in the core of the army and any thors mind controlled. Make sure to have good melee upgrades. O_O
Firstly, speaking as a Terran player there's a couple different ways tanks are played. Being broken into defensive, or offensive categories.
zvp especially, tank/marine push is super effective, and with an optimized build I can push with 2-3tanks with 15+marines about the time lair tech usually comes up if you're not rushing to 1base lairtech.
There's a couple things that are Really under utilized by every zerg I play.
1) Roach burrow. A rush to lair tech for burrowing claws or as an addition to your standard build, burrowed roaches are way under used, at the Very least Terran has to use less Mules because they have to have a scan ready for burrowed roaches on positions or when pushing. Also forces either turrets or Ravens, which deviates from alot of mech builds.
2) Drops. Early game only really this is viable to actually drop on tanks, however mid/late game sending harass and then assault, and then fake doomdrops forces Terran to be more mindful of defenses and a little bit more wary of moving out, also forces enemy army out of position.
I feel BioMech will become a dominant strategy in the near future. Since the ground dominance of of tanks is complimented so well with a high dps and high survivability MMM balls supporting it, and with Sensor Towers (which are not even used properly yet) Terran should never be 'caught out of position' as many people have posted here. Everybody seems to be underestimating the usefulness of a solid 5-20s early warning system..
EPT
