EPTZvT How the HELL does Z counter Seige Tanks?
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LF9
United States537 Posts
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InTriX
United Kingdom149 Posts
Try spaceing it out ith paragraphs looking at that wall makes my eyes blur :/ If you watch high level games, you can see some strats include over lord dropping and then running in with the rest of your army. Also if its late game, Ultras are sooooo good against mech. | ||
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
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UberThing
Great Britain410 Posts
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TheOracle
Australia256 Posts
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Crushgroove
United States793 Posts
It requires one thing though: map control. If you don't have map control you can't set up any kind of a flank/ambush/counter and in a straight on 1a2a3a fight you will always lose. Never fight them on their terms, make them walk into yours. On the other hand, even with macro advantage, tech advantage, resource advantage, and supply count advantage, I've no way to definitively beat a Terran on 2 bases who is pumping mech (if the mech includes thors). I've tried everything. I've even let a Terran player I beat remain alive in game, let him tech up, I had a 200/200 army just waiting for him and I STILL couldn't win. Its really awful how one sided it is. Not saying that its broken, just saying that NO ONE has been able to prove there's a way to do it yet. Edit: trying to figure out how to upload a replay of that last scenario now. I seriously just let him remain in the game to make some mech, and I was waiting for him and still couldn't do it. Its possible... I even used some ultras... but its way way way harder than "balanced". | ||
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FC.Strike
United States621 Posts
Without replays, I find it hard to give any more useful advice. Go watch Cool's VoDs vs. Maka from the 17173 world cup and upload some of your own replays. | ||
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brinbran
United States52 Posts
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
You just need to use all your tricks to delay the push and get to tier 3 in time so try to get a good unburrow on him with your roaches harass hard and use overlords to full extent. Dropping roaches on top of the tanks also works fairly well. Overlords can take quite some beating from thors. If you were reffering to bio and tanks which is less common then mass lings works fine, just try to get the tanks when he is on the move. Tanks can´t 1 shot packs of lings anymore so they actually work with proper positioning | ||
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KIM0SABE
United States7 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:02 InTriX wrote: text wall of doom. Try spaceing it out ith paragraphs looking at that wall makes my eyes blur :/ If you watch high level games, you can see some strats include over lord dropping and then running in with the rest of your army. Also if its late game, Ultras are sooooo good against mech. Took the words right out of my mouth. I have found that the best way for me to deal with not only mech, but mass tank as well is a decent ultra/speed ling army. Send the Ultra's in first as a big ole' meat shield, and then send the speed lings in after for a surround. | ||
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KaiserJohan
Sweden1808 Posts
You are right that tanks are rediculously good vs Z. T1 & T2 units are just worthless in lategame, 200 pop melts in seconds. Ultras works too but you need a sizeable number, catch him out of position and hope you can drop without him noticing/countering. If they just could revert tank AI to SC1 it would all be good. It dosn't matter if tank dmg is nerfed, that was never the problem in the first case. Hydras still 2-shotted and so on. The dmg reduction only helped toss units or ultras, while the nerf was intended to weaken mech vs Z | ||
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ztranger
Sweden57 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
User was warned for this post | ||
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Zarahtra
Iceland4053 Posts
 Well vs mech Z has it a bit harsh I'd say, since it can be really hard to get out of the mindset of fighting his army rather than keeping his unit count down and/or forcing him to make units he doesn't want to make. Tanks are really expensive and do truely suck until they are like 5+(or have good position). If you get to the point that the T has critical mass, you hopefully have broodlords(or ultras, which do work pretty well, esp. since it again forces the T to make unit he doesn't want to make) on the way which guarded with a mix of units(hydras, corruptors, mutas) can really wreck havoc. Blings loaded in ovies are also decent/good, esp. if there is already an air battle going on. Else roaches do pretty decently still I'd say as long as the T doesn't totally get to pick the terrain and you can get flank + good concaves ASAP(burrowed roaches *can* work or backfire, depending on the enemy).. Else I'd really recommend trying to not fight T forces, rather try doing doomdrops or faking doomdrops and catching the tanks moving back to the base. Nydus I'd also say is underused, but it ofcourse is a hit/miss kinda thing. | ||
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claricorp
Canada142 Posts
they deal massive amounts of damage at a very very long range, though they cannot move while sieged. because of this nydus worms and overlord drops are EXTREMELY effective against a tank heavy terran. spreading creep out everywhere, using overlords on high ground and changelings(my favorite) you can keep an eye on when they are sieged and not sieged, then strike with speedlings. however if they are already at your doorstep then infestors and roaches are pretty much the best things you have. my personal favorite is sending a wave of infestors behind the ball(burrow move), sending in a small wave of speedlings followed by banelings( or just roaches) to deal with rines and rauders but mainly to take the tanks first shot. while this is happening you can do several things with your infestors such as using infested terrans beside the tanks, neural parisiting them and vaporizing his main ball and then apply fungal growth liberally so they cant pop your channeling infestors. infestors are pretty much the direct counter to siege tanks if the game gets really far along though burrow move roaches followed by a quick wave of speedlings for a surround works VERY well. | ||
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OneManZerg
United States11 Posts
Otherwise you'll want to time your fight properly so that you hit him right when he's about to move, and preferably from multiple sides. Lastly, if they don't have a lot of marines you can take in some mutalisks and then push in on them: Hope those help... | ||
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LF9
United States537 Posts
I wasn't even talking really about pure mech, but just like 1 (2 tops) factories pumping seige tanks supported by a regular early game army, Marines, few marauders and Hellions and whatnot. The push can come pretty damn early if it's a push, certainly before Zerg can have 3 bases up and running. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:22 LF9 wrote: I think you guys misunderstood my point. I'm not talking about beating Tanks in a large macro game of like 2-3 base vs 3-4 base or whatever. I'm talking relatively early game. Tanks DO come pretty early, and it's tough fending them off with Tier 1 units and early Tier 2 units. I wasn't even talking really about pure mech, but just like 1 (2 tops) factories pumping seige tanks supported by a regular early game army, Marines, few marauders and Hellions and whatnot. The push can come pretty damn early if it's a push, certainly before Zerg can have 3 bases up and running. You mean a marine tank push? Just catch em unsieged with anything, really. I think Speedling infestor might work there. If it's early, you have the advantage vs full mech, but you're a bit worse off vs bio mech and you need to clarify which you're dealing with. EDIT: you edited. | ||
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LF9
United States537 Posts
Edit: haha yea | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:28 Tazza wrote: Yeah I hate it when they use helion controll in the beginning to make me make lots of lings and more queens. Then the terran gets his natural. And u basically have to play a long game. I found out that mass roaches work well against mech though. Roaches are the tank unit of zerg, the only ground unit vs tanks that dont die in one shot (except ultras) Queens don't die in one shot. | ||
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baconbits
United States419 Posts
hydras don't either lol whats the point? everything cept ultras melt to tanks. but to answer OP, do drops, split their forces, distract them, and scout always to catch em while theyre moving | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:38 baconbits wrote: hydras don't either lol whats the point? everything cept ultras melt to tanks. but to answer OP, do drops, split their forces, distract them, and scout always to catch em while theyre moving That's for pure mech. He's dealing with bio mech which has a really early strong push. . .Hum. Maybe he should try to scout better then prepare roaches, drops, mutas, or something. Also any harass like banelings/ mutas that can keep him pinned in his base is a plus. | ||
Liquid`Sheth
United States2095 Posts
Seriously on certain maps like Kulas, Incineration Zone and Blistering I really feel your best bet is to play your second best race. If you feel like TvT might be more your forte give it a go. Losing on those maps just frustrates me, and I'm sure it frustrates you. So feel free to attempt to play T or P. Everyone else already is. | ||
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MythicalMage
1360 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:50 Sheth wrote: Too answer the OP : You change your race to Protoss. (or Terran) Seriously on certain maps like Kulas, Incineration Zone and Blistering I really feel your best bet is to play your second best race. If you feel like TvT might be more your forte give it a go. Losing on those maps just frustrates me, and I'm sure it frustrates you. So feel free to attempt to play T or P. Everyone else already is. Those maps are really really imbalanced towards anything but zerg. | ||
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Nifarious
United States42 Posts
Be creative and never give up! | ||
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BaaL`
297 Posts
You say he has 1 factory pumping tanks, and then some hellions... Notice the flaw? Replay or this is going nowhere. | ||
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LF9
United States537 Posts
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Anxiety
United States650 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:06 Crushgroove wrote: Siege Tanks I have no trouble with, burrowed infestors and blings, xplode the blings, run in with lings, Launch a bunch of infested terrans into the middle of the tanks, unborrow the infestors, parasite a few of the tanks, run in more units if necessary. It requires one thing though: map control. If you don't have map control you can't set up any kind of a flank/ambush/counter and in a straight on 1a2a3a fight you will always lose. Never fight them on their terms, make them walk into yours. On the other hand, even with macro advantage, tech advantage, resource advantage, and supply count advantage, I've no way to definitively beat a Terran on 2 bases who is pumping mech (if the mech includes thors). I've tried everything. I've even let a Terran player I beat remain alive in game, let him tech up, I had a 200/200 army just waiting for him and I STILL couldn't win. Its really awful how one sided it is. Not saying that its broken, just saying that NO ONE has been able to prove there's a way to do it yet. Edit: trying to figure out how to upload a replay of that last scenario now. I seriously just let him remain in the game to make some mech, and I was waiting for him and still couldn't do it. Its possible... I even used some ultras... but its way way way harder than "balanced". Mech 200/200 Army>Zerg 200/200 army. Zerg reproduction rate of units>Terran (Mech) reproduction. So by this, you should be able to get out a new army faster than the terran can, and you should be able to do this enough. And keep vomiting larva, you can have like 12+ larva on one hatch (i believe) and can churn out units by the masses. or the swarm. | ||
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The_Pacifist
United States540 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:58 BaaL` wrote: Replay or this is going nowhere. It sounds like you're dealing with a very very standard terran early game push, to which the answer could be a hundred different things. But since you are saying you are having a lot of trouble finding just one solution, it could be that there's a major flaw inherent in your build that leaves you open or a mechanical error such as not injecting larva (an example, I'm not saying that's it). But it will all be baseless speculation without a replay. | ||
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Icx
Belgium853 Posts
The goal in the early game is to expand fairly fast. Either 14pool15 hatch or anything in that sort. Another option is to do that sort of 14 poo, very fast gas to get ling speed and get some lings out before you expand. Let's say I scouted he's doing some sort of marine/tank/x push, and opening with hellions, I add a roach warren, get 3-4 roaches to fend off hellions, and start pumping drones. Next step is lair, get 2nd gas, after lair immediatly put down an infestation pit, when this finishes you have the option to get neural parasite if you prefer this or if he goes thors. And get roach speed. I do this instead of getting early upgrades I keep tabs on his unit counts etc, and I don't overpump drones in my expo untill i'm sure he's expo'ing, else I start pumping out roach/ling for his incoming push (and you should have already made 2-3 infestors for getting their energy up. You need to start moving out when he moves out, don't let him siege your nat, and send out a ling now and then or keep sight on him with overlords, you just need to catch him unsieged, the moment he does that it's getting in your stuff before they are fully sieged and use fungal growth to try to get his marines a bad spot and soften those up. if he has a high marine count you can add in banelings. If he is going more tank add more roach/ling. Afterwards if I can stop it, try to get some lings in his nat if he put that up in meanwhile because he will have very low defenses. Add OL speed and drop or get burrow, expand, and get upgrades. The rest of the game is abusing mobility, getting neural parasite if he goes thors, try to expand while keeping him on 2 bases, and use drops/burrow etc if he manages to get a third. When you have a third up etc get hive and go ultra's or broodlords. Infestor/lings can deal with drops, infestor/queens for some lone vikings, and if he goes banshee's get a hydra den up. If he at some points starts skipping AA such as going marauder/tank/thor hellion to deal with roaches/fungal growth get a good pack of muta's up. That is basicly my overall gameplan against T's that do that these days. And I have "some" success with it as far as I have tested this (but I guess this is mostly due to the T's I go against on ladder don't seem to have an idea on how to follow up after their failed push). But if he is good, it's a hard battle from start to end. | ||
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st3roids
Greece538 Posts
Baneling drops or any drops anyway . Heres 5 games for you to watch and learn start from there | ||
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Pandain
United States12989 Posts
Or just put ITS right by the tannks and try to take em out fast. Or just NP them. | ||
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Calamity
Canada161 Posts
The key is surround. Surrounding units with the speed of zerglings will murder. Seperating your zerglings into two small groups so one can attack from the front and one from behind. For example, if you're playign steppes of war, you can put one group in your nat, one near the watchtower, and one zerglings in the middle to spot incoming rushes. The moment that zerglings dies. Prepare the second group to rush the tanks from behind when they siege, or hesitate at the ramp. Get the zerglings to the front and surround them. Creep helps wonders too. This is all from a Terran player that find these things hard to deal with. So, I also might be wrong in my assumptions about how to counter this push as a Zerg. | ||
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ilbh
Brazil1606 Posts
mutas+lings with few banelings. if you waste banelings you are wasting gas. | ||
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Deathfate
Spain555 Posts
The tough build is to play against a mech terran, i mean thor tank, I recommend open mutas, to force him to make thors instead of tanks, if you can hold him enough you can get at least ur natural and the gold against his natural only, then you just need to tech to broodlords while denying as long as possible his 3rd/push, this can be done with drops normally, in some maps is more difficult like kulas ravine, i usually go faster broodlords or take a lot of expoes instead of the 3 usual. | ||
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Floophead_III
United States1832 Posts
On July 15 2010 10:07 FC.Strike wrote: Cool (one of the best in the game) uses mass roach to deal with Terran mech along with baneling drops to kill the marines. Without replays, I find it hard to give any more useful advice. Go watch Cool's VoDs vs. Maka from the 17173 world cup and upload some of your own replays. This is what I've found to be the most problematic thing for me when going marine/tank. I've had a lot of trouble vs roach/baneling with maybe a handful of mutas to force me to make rines. Roaches are still ridiculously strong for their cost, so as long as you expand like crazy or tech to hive which forces T to push you won't get stuck with 200/200 roach ball vs 200/200 biomech army. Basically, you need to force terran to push before he's unstoppable. | ||
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Gescom
Canada3511 Posts
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KidA
United States17 Posts
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Prophecy3
Canada223 Posts
zvp especially, tank/marine push is super effective, and with an optimized build I can push with 2-3tanks with 15+marines about the time lair tech usually comes up if you're not rushing to 1base lairtech. There's a couple things that are Really under utilized by every zerg I play. 1) Roach burrow. A rush to lair tech for burrowing claws or as an addition to your standard build, burrowed roaches are way under used, at the Very least Terran has to use less Mules because they have to have a scan ready for burrowed roaches on positions or when pushing. Also forces either turrets or Ravens, which deviates from alot of mech builds. 2) Drops. Early game only really this is viable to actually drop on tanks, however mid/late game sending harass and then assault, and then fake doomdrops forces Terran to be more mindful of defenses and a little bit more wary of moving out, also forces enemy army out of position. I feel BioMech will become a dominant strategy in the near future. Since the ground dominance of of tanks is complimented so well with a high dps and high survivability MMM balls supporting it, and with Sensor Towers (which are not even used properly yet) Terran should never be 'caught out of position' as many people have posted here. Everybody seems to be underestimating the usefulness of a solid 5-20s early warning system.. | ||
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Twinweapon
United States90 Posts
Drop units on top of the tanks and the most effective unit for that is the baneling, or borrowed roaches popping up on top of tanks or the units protecting them, or hell both. They can't kill what they can't see. If you like the heads on approach then make 400 zerglings and i'm sure that will cause the tanks to kill each other as well as any units around it. If they have hellions tho you lose. Last and most effective option is dropping their main, natural, or just an expansion in general. Tanks can't move or they become very ineffective. Also Zerg players often have a excess of minerals so make extra overlords in case you lose a few. That is how you beat tanks. By simply avoiding them. | ||
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Sabresandiego
United States227 Posts
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Wr3k
Canada2533 Posts
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Rezz
Canada20 Posts
Infestor + burrow + infested terran. You can cast infested terran while you are burrow. One infested terran egg need two hit to die. Throw them in the terran army and look at the smart AI + friendly fire combos | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
The raven makes it so roaches and burrowed infestors don't work. Vikings also mean any drop strategy is less effective, while the cost of one starport isn't too big as it also lets you contain the zerg and attack overlords. | ||
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Rezz
Canada20 Posts
On July 16 2010 04:15 Mothxal wrote: What if a terran uses a strategy like this: 2 early vikings to pick off overlords and keep you in your base --> an expansion --> a later tank push with 5-6 tanks, 2 vikings, a raven(!) and marine/marauder/medivac, as money allows? By that time you should have tech to tier 3. OP was talking about mass tank... | ||
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