EPT
PvT way to deal with EMP - Page 6
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision. It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work. And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile. | ||
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zephon
France26 Posts
On June 11 2010 22:32 STS17 wrote: Psy Storm: Is effective against all three races to an equal degree Can do damage to any unit in the game. Can actually kill a unit. Can be used to to block off area to force an opponent to retreat or enable your own retreat. can be cast immediately upon spawn once upgraded on a unit that can spawn anywhere there is power. Effect persists for 4 seconds - can be microed out of to minimize damage EMP: Damages the shields of Protoss units Can only effect the casters of Zerg and Terran Can never actually kill a unit Can't be used upon the spawn of the unit even with upgrades Effect is instantaneous. well if you really want an unfair 1-sided view of the two spells, i suggest this one: Storm: late tier 3 (and requires a research) range 6 radius 1.5 damage 80 over 4 sec (= less than 80 dmg if your units can use their feet...) can be quite easily prevented by terrans by using EMP does not affect buildings EMP: tier 1.5 (doesn't require any research) range 10 radius 2 100 damage (instant) side effects : reveal cloaked units, drain 100% energy can hardly be prevented by protoss by using FB affect every protoss units/buildings However I dont consider that EMP is so unfair right now. I agree with the fact that actually storm is more versatile because it can kill (and that's maybe why it does less damage). In early game terran players don't go for more than one or two ghosts (because they are really expensive). So dividing your army or using immortal hallucinations may be quite effective. Retreat is more common and effective too (shields regenerate very quickier than in BW) but leads to the fact than in PvT protoss players dont have the initiative of the offensive (and indirectly they have less opportunities to expand...). What to do then, if you really feel you're wasting time? I've found that harrasing miners with 2 phoenix or 2 VR works fine as long as the Terran has not started the mass production of vikings. Quick hit-and-runs with phoenixes over the miners is usually not so much affected by the presence of ghosts (if you really dont know what to do) EDIT : i've just read the comment above mine and I feel like it's actually very true | ||
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trucejl
120 Posts
On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote: And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army. Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision. It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work. And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile. against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before. only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
On June 12 2010 07:18 GodIsNotHere wrote: EMP only removes 100 energy as it is right now. You know, it would still be crippling if it drained 100 energy.. but alas, it drains ALL energy. Completely utter batshit. 10 range + 2 aoe = 12 range, seriously, any moron who ever says feedback is a ghost counter should be smacked. EMP has NO soft or hard counters. If terran builds ghost to emp your face, he will manage to do so regardless of your actions. On a side benefit, protoss typically respond with a lot of zealots against bio ball (cos stalkers get owned so hard by marauders).. guess what type of bonus damage ghosts get? Yup, against light zealots, a nice 20 dmg per shot so it isn't as affected by armor/guardian shields compared to marines or marauder vs light. So once you EMP his army (instant 50 dmg vs zealots or 80 dmg vs stalkers), your ghosts still put out impressive dps against zealots (a lot more than a stalker vs armored targets). Try it in the Unit Tester, see how dominating a T army is with just 2 ghosts in it vs a few extra units. HT can't even dream of matching Ghost performance and its a mid game tier 3 option requiring 2 long research. Also, immortals.. they are useless when ghosts are around. That is about as hard as a hard counter that exists. So let's summarize shall we: EMP makes immortals, sentries and HT utterly useless AND it gets to weaken the rest of the protoss army by 30-50%.. combined with its longest spell casting range and big aoe radius and instant effect, there's no chance to micro to minimize it's impact. All from a t1.5 unit. Not OP? Stop smoking whatever it is you are smoking. But let's wait and see, next time bliz nerfs EMP, don't all of you bias T players come crying how it was so unexpected. Edit: Vikings will dominate VR mass. Focus fire will instant kill VR, by the time they are charged, there's only a few left alive. Just the range of 9 means by the time your VR get into range, a few already died. | ||
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AncienTs
Japan227 Posts
spread out, spread out, spread out! going up the ramp vs terran is like asking for an EMP in the face also, there is something weird about terran still using ghosts against high templar.. the tech timing is all weird. early game PvT should involve ghost vs immortal/sentry(shield/energy) to a degree then terran will generally transition out of ghosts into starport/metal ... all this talk about ghost vs high templar is just really anomalous | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
1. Spread out. Ok, can do! But EMP is cheap, each ghost can get at least 2 EMP in reliably. You tend to get more than 1 ghost. So even against a spread army, you can emp them all. 2. Yup, going into ramp or chokes or whatever, aoe spells dominate. Except EMP dominates in the open too, see #1. Storm has a smaller radius, shorter range and doesn't do its full effect instantly but over 4 seconds so your can micro to minimize its impact. EMP, there's no microing to minimize its impact. 3. You are exactly correct. Ghost and Templar timings are very different in time and cost. Ghosts are t1.5, similar to sentries and stalkers. Templar is t3, and to be effective requires expensive research. Just the fact that a t1.5 free ability can counter everything protoss.. is a bit imba, don't you think? Just a few ghosts, 2 or 3 will be able to EMP an entire spread out army, and still contribute with very high dps vs zealots and other light units after they are out of energy. It just doesn't make any sense, EMP is meant to counter psi storm or fungal growth etc, it works well for that. But when feedback is meant to counter EMP, it doesn't. You cannot counter something that has a longer range and is aoe therefore, easier to target with. It should be feedback range = 10 (like snipe), EMP range = 6 = storm. But it's the other way around, EMP = 10 + 2 aoe. So it counters everything with no counters against it. These things matter a great deal. | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
On June 12 2010 13:00 SilverforceX wrote: Seems like this always go around in circles. 1. Spread out. Ok, can do! But EMP is cheap, each ghost can get at least 2 EMP in reliably. You tend to get more than 1 ghost. So even against a spread army, you can emp them all. 2. Yup, going into ramp or chokes or whatever, aoe spells dominate. Except EMP dominates in the open too, see #1. Storm has a smaller radius, shorter range and doesn't do its full effect instantly but over 4 seconds so your can micro to minimize its impact. EMP, there's no microing to minimize its impact. 3. You are exactly correct. Ghost and Templar timings are very different in time and cost. Ghosts are t1.5, similar to sentries and stalkers. Templar is t3, and to be effective requires expensive research. Just the fact that a t1.5 free ability can counter everything protoss.. is a bit imba, don't you think? Just a few ghosts, 2 or 3 will be able to EMP an entire spread out army, and still contribute with very high dps vs zealots and other light units after they are out of energy. It just doesn't make any sense, EMP is meant to counter psi storm or fungal growth etc, it works well for that. But when feedback is meant to counter EMP, it doesn't. You cannot counter something that has a longer range and is aoe therefore, easier to target with. It should be feedback range = 10 (like snipe), EMP range = 6 = storm. But it's the other way around, EMP = 10 + 2 aoe. So it counters everything with no counters against it. These things matter a great deal. It only goes in circles because your argument is completely lopsided. 1. Ghosts don't start off with full energy. They start with 50. EMP costs 75. It takes 50 (game) seconds to get that extra 25 energy. A Terran's first ghost can do a MAX of (not "at least") 2 EMPs after being out for 3 minutes and 20 seconds gametime (+100 energy at 1 every 2 seconds). I'm not going to calculate out the number of EMPs a Terran could potentially do at any given time, but as you can see, you are stacking the odds heavily in the Terran's favor from nowhere. 2. There most certainly IS micro to minimize the impact of an EMP. As was stated SEVERAL times in this thread that you just decide not to acknowledge is that you can spread your forces to minimize or manipulate how many/which units eat the EMP, and/or, you can retreat after the EMP(s) go off- after which, it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds gametime to replenish the energy used for them. 3. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable!!! Also, "countering" a unit does not mean to completely shut it down. It simply means to make it less effective. A "counter" does NOT need to be a spell or unit. It can simply mean a way to play. You don't say that the "counter" for Cannon Rushes is Workers. If anything, you say that the counter is Micro. The same is true with EMP. The "counter" to it is micro to make it less effective. | ||
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Novembermike
United States102 Posts
The problem with EMP as I see it is that it doesn't add anything to the game. Everything else has a two way relationship. Marauders->Immortals->Marines->Colossi->Vikings->Stalkers->Marauders, is a fairly complex chain of counters that you might see in an average game. Every threat has a response and you have to judge which response is correct (for example, we can replace the Immortals in that example with void rays or the Colossi with HT depending on how you want to play it). EMP doesn't really work along these lines. If you see your opponent going EMP there just isn't a really good response. Chargelots are the best I can think of and they have significant problems as well (they still take a ton of damage and terran has multiple valid responses to chargelots even without the EMP). It also isn't really a necessary answer to any of the questions that Protoss have. It just makes the battles easier. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On June 12 2010 10:09 trucejl wrote: against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before. only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant. So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings. And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob. There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things. | ||
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NitroN7
Canada18 Posts
On June 11 2010 18:46 SilverforceX wrote: Mudd: Micro what? There's nothing to micro dude. Ghosts EMP your face happens instantly. It can be spammed, hold E and click on all his army (if he micro to spread them out). Instant effect, bye bye shields. See casters? EMP them too, instantly! Now, Psi Storm, you can argue about micro. If you have good micro, storm does like 20 dmg. No contest. EMP is wacked imba vs protoss. Think of it this way.. what if, storm had 1) instant 50 dmg (not even 100 shields that emp nullifies), and drained all energy. It's available on sentries without requiring research. Would that be balanced? Didn't think so. Time to obtain Ghost and Sentry: Barracks = 60s Ghost Academy = 70s You can build tech lab while Ghost Academy is building, it only takes 25s. Ghost = 40s Total = 170s Gateway = 65s Cybernetics Core = 50s Sentry = 42s Total = 157s, Only 13s slower than teching to Ghost. Another point, HT Amulet cost = 150/150, 110s. Moebius = 100/100, 80s. Same effect. Why the huge cost differential? You forget to add that Ghost tech is out of the way of anythign else. Sentry tech is on the way to EVERYTHING else | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
On June 12 2010 13:35 Sylvr wrote: It only goes in circles because your argument is completely lopsided. 1. Ghosts don't start off with full energy. They start with 50. EMP costs 75. It takes 50 (game) seconds to get that extra 25 energy. A Terran's first ghost can do a MAX of (not "at least") 2 EMPs after being out for 3 minutes and 20 seconds gametime (+100 energy at 1 every 2 seconds). I'm not going to calculate out the number of EMPs a Terran could potentially do at any given time, but as you can see, you are stacking the odds heavily in the Terran's favor from nowhere. 2. There most certainly IS micro to minimize the impact of an EMP. As was stated SEVERAL times in this thread that you just decide not to acknowledge is that you can spread your forces to minimize or manipulate how many/which units eat the EMP, and/or, you can retreat after the EMP(s) go off- after which, it takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds gametime to replenish the energy used for them. 3. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable. HT and Ghosts are not comparable!!! Also, "countering" a unit does not mean to completely shut it down. It simply means to make it less effective. A "counter" does NOT need to be a spell or unit. It can simply mean a way to play. You don't say that the "counter" for Cannon Rushes is Workers. If anything, you say that the counter is Micro. The same is true with EMP. The "counter" to it is micro to make it less effective. 1. Moebius. Cheap and fast to upgrade. What, it's 100/100, 80s. Guess what HT have that's identical? Yet it costs 150/150 and 110s for Amulet. If it's an early game clash, armies are small. 1 EMP will hit pretty much all the units. Note range 10 + 2, see them, instant EMP before they can even spread. Later armies, they can spread and have observers to prepare for spreading, but you will have a few ghosts by then, with some having 150+ energy for 2 EMPs. 2. As stated already, retreat will just make things worse. Conc shell and stim = Terran army is a lot faster. It may buy you a few seconds. How much shields and energy can you regen in that time let alone how many zealots you just lost in the retreat? 3. They aren't comparable because one is t1.5 and counters the entire protoss army without any counters including micro, but the other is a t3 much more expensive to tech and research that is meant to counter massed units, but still allow micro to minimize its impact. So yes, i do agree they aren't comparable. One is clearly much much superior in this MU. Yes, i agree a counter doesn't mean a hard counter shutdown. Kinda like how EMP hard counters immortals, sentry and HT and "soft-counters" every other protoss units. I would just like as protoss to have a viable "soft-counter", for example, why is the EMP effect instantaneous with such a huge range? If it weren't instant, i could actually micro my units out of the aoe and minimize its impact. Don't mention spreading out armies again please, it's not even a viable soft counter yet requires much more micro, refer to #1, a few ghost will negate any spread you have. EMP in bw was t3, and expensive to research. It's range was also shorter than feedback allowing protoss to have an effective micro counter against it. That was balanced. In Sc2, EMP is apeshit imba. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
On June 12 2010 15:14 NitroN7 wrote: You forget to add that Ghost tech is out of the way of anythign else. Sentry tech is on the way to EVERYTHING else Ghosts are t1.5, you can get them if you want to, it's an optional choice. You can mix it in any army composition because the academy is cheap. Cybercore is a requisite to the other 3 tech trees. It doesn't flow, it branches off. Terran inherently has the more fluid tech path. Barracks > Fact > Starport. Easy peasy you have everything and quite cheap too. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
10 + 2 AND instant = no possibility to counter from any ability as it always hits first. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 12 2010 15:14 NitroN7 wrote: You forget to add that Ghost tech is out of the way of anythign else. Sentry tech is on the way to EVERYTHING else How are sentries even comparable to ghosts??? They do completely different things. One deals pseudo damage and negates all casters (i.e. offensive). The other is purely supportive. Comparing the two is like comparing void rays to medivacs. EDIT: @ Bibdy: So basically you expect Protoss to tech/research storm and also tech Void rays with speed in order to counter ghost? Right. That's fair. | ||
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trucejl
120 Posts
On June 12 2010 14:53 Bibdy wrote: Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant. So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings. And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob. There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things. rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming | ||
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Sylvr
United States524 Posts
On June 12 2010 15:22 SilverforceX wrote: 1. Moebius. Cheap and fast to upgrade. What, it's 100/100, 80s. Guess what HT have that's identical? Yet it costs 150/150 and 110s for Amulet. If it's an early game clash, armies are small. 1 EMP will hit pretty much all the units. Note range 10 + 2, see them, instant EMP before they can even spread. Later armies, they can spread and have observers to prepare for spreading, but you will have a few ghosts by then, with some having 150+ energy for 2 EMPs. 2. As stated already, retreat will just make things worse. Conc shell and stim = Terran army is a lot faster. It may buy you a few seconds. How much shields and energy can you regen in that time let alone how many zealots you just lost in the retreat? 3. They aren't comparable because one is t1.5 and counters the entire protoss army without any counters including micro, but the other is a t3 much more expensive to tech and research that is meant to counter massed units, but still allow micro to minimize its impact. So yes, i do agree they aren't comparable. One is clearly much much superior in this MU. Yes, i agree a counter doesn't mean a hard counter shutdown. Kinda like how EMP hard counters immortals, sentry and HT and "soft-counters" every other protoss units. I would just like as protoss to have a viable "soft-counter", for example, why is the EMP effect instantaneous with such a huge range? If it weren't instant, i could actually micro my units out of the aoe and minimize its impact. Don't mention spreading out armies again please, it's not even a viable soft counter yet requires much more micro, refer to #1, a few ghost will negate any spread you have. EMP in bw was t3, and expensive to research. It's range was also shorter than feedback allowing protoss to have an effective micro counter against it. That was balanced. In Sc2, EMP is apeshit imba. 1. Make up your mind on how far into the game you are. If you are in early game, Ghosts won't have Mobius. Also, they'll only have a few Marauders because they had to cut QUITE a few in order to get the Ghost(s). Also, a radius of 2 means that it covers ROUGHLY a 4x4 square minus the corners. This is the size of a Command Center. What kind of pathetic army do you have ~6+ minutes into the game that 1 EMP is going to hit all of it? This isn't even factoring in that the spell doesn't aim itself. If your army is moving and the Ghost isn't already in range, there is no guarantee that it's going to hit dead center into your army. Also, if you're moving, your army isn't going to be 1 solid ball. It's going to be strung out at least a little. 2. Stop exaggerating the value of Conc shells. First off, if it's an early rush and he went straight for ghosts, then he is NOT going to have that many Marauders simply because the Ghosts are not ONLY taking up an obscene amount of his gas, but they're also using a lot of the time of his Tech Lab Barracks. In a retreat in the early game, he will only be able to slow a few of your units. Even in a later game with a huge MMM ball, he'll only be able to pick off the Zealots in front, and still only as many as he has Marauders. If he waits till the battle is in full swing and you armies are lined up, then the EMP will be next to useless because all of your units' shields are likely already gone. If he OPENS the battle with an EMP, then only a small portion of his Marauders will be attacking anyway and there is no reason for you not to GTFO sacrificing a few Zealots to slow him down. 3. Ghosts don't "counter a Protoss' entire army" unless you're a complete idiot. The reason they aren't comparable is BECAUSE they're different tiers. HTs would be better compared with Ravens than Ghosts. That's like saying Infestors are like Motherships because they can stop units from moving! Also, I will NOT stop mentioning spreading out because any retard with at least one working hand can do it. You argue that the ability to micro out of Storm to minimize the effect is what makes it OK, but you won't accept that you can micro to minimize the effect of EMP? What the fuck kind of double standard bullshit is that? If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense! You are either the biggest retard or the best troll on these forums. Either way, I'm done trying to educate you. You are the child that got left behind. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On June 12 2010 16:25 Sylvr wrote: 1. Make up your mind on how far into the game you are. If you are in early game, Ghosts won't have Mobius. Also, they'll only have a few Marauders because they had to cut QUITE a few in order to get the Ghost(s). Also, a radius of 2 means that it covers ROUGHLY a 4x4 square minus the corners. This is the size of a Command Center. What kind of pathetic army do you have ~6+ minutes into the game that 1 EMP is going to hit all of it? This isn't even factoring in that the spell doesn't aim itself. If your army is moving and the Ghost isn't already in range, there is no guarantee that it's going to hit dead center into your army. Also, if you're moving, your army isn't going to be 1 solid ball. It's going to be strung out at least a little. 2. Stop exaggerating the value of Conc shells. First off, if it's an early rush and he went straight for ghosts, then he is NOT going to have that many Marauders simply because the Ghosts are not ONLY taking up an obscene amount of his gas, but they're also using a lot of the time of his Tech Lab Barracks. In a retreat in the early game, he will only be able to slow a few of your units. Even in a later game with a huge MMM ball, he'll only be able to pick off the Zealots in front, and still only as many as he has Marauders. If he waits till the battle is in full swing and you armies are lined up, then the EMP will be next to useless because all of your units' shields are likely already gone. If he OPENS the battle with an EMP, then only a small portion of his Marauders will be attacking anyway and there is no reason for you not to GTFO sacrificing a few Zealots to slow him down. 3. Ghosts don't "counter a Protoss' entire army" unless you're a complete idiot. The reason they aren't comparable is BECAUSE they're different tiers. HTs would be better compared with Ravens than Ghosts. That's like saying Infestors are like Motherships because they can stop units from moving! Also, I will NOT stop mentioning spreading out because any retard with at least one working hand can do it. You argue that the ability to micro out of Storm to minimize the effect is what makes it OK, but you won't accept that you can micro to minimize the effect of EMP? What the fuck kind of double standard bullshit is that? If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense! You are either the biggest retard or the best troll on these forums. Either way, I'm done trying to educate you. You are the child that got left behind. I agree with ur point 1. However, later in the game, if they decide to go bio+ghost, they will easily have enough marauders to take out more than just a few zealots. Also, if the Terran is good at army positioning, their marauders will be in front of their army and can easily take out a good number of stragglers. Keep in mind that Protoss replenishment of their army is still slower than Terran reinforcing even with warpgates. The warp time + cooldown for Protoss warpgate is still longer total than the build time for Terran bio units. Terran bio can easily pick away at the Protoss army and gain a growing advantage that way. Furthermore, retreat can help minimize the effects of EMP, but it's rarely very effective due to concussive shells and stim. The Terran bio ball can easily chase down a Protoss army with stim and conc shells and thus force an engagement. FF can be used, but this brings me to point 3. Spreading out should be used and you are totally justified in mentioning it. However, even with a good spread, it is not unrealistic to expect the Terran to still have enough ghost/EMP to blanket EMP the same way HT can blanket storm. In fact, it is even more effective and easier to blanket EMP in order to insure every, or almost every, Protoss unit is hit due to the larger AoE of 2, the lack of a cooldown, and the fact that a ghost with full energy can use 2 EMPs in quick succession. If the Terran builds the ghosts early enough (and keeps them alive), it is not unrealistic to assume that at least 1-2 of their ghosts can chain 2 EMPs. In short, spreading helps, but in the mid-late game when Terran can easily afford 2-3+ ghosts, spreading will do next to nothing in terms of preventing EMP simply because Terran can just blanket the P army in EMPs (even with spread). In the early game, if a Protoss gets their entire army EMP'd it's just a micro mistake. In short, you can't minimize the effects of EMP the same way you can minimize the effects of storm. EMP is instantaneous, storm is not. If you get hit by EMP, you feel the full force of it; if you get hit by a storm, you can minimize the total damage taken. BTW, Ghost do in fact "counter" every Protoss unit. At least as a soft counter. Dealing essentially 100 instantaneous damage in AoE to only Protoss units is a pretty solid counter don't u think? I don't really like SilverforceX's wording and such but he makes some valid points that I think you're not quite understanding. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
This way, EMP's effectiveness won't be affected in early game when ghosts will usually only have 1 EMP anyways and it's up to the Protoss to minimze damage. In mid-late game, the Terran can no longer spam/blanket EMPs as easily which will help enable Protoss to better handle EMP. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
It's a strawman argument because it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the spell involved. There's NO WAY TO MICRO effectively to mitigate EMP in any ground engagement. If you (Sylvr) truly believe that it's as effective to micro to avoid EMP as it is for storm, you are the only retard here. "If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!" ---- Are you just clueless? By the time an army is large enough that spreading out will warrant a few EMP for coverage, is when a Terran can afford a 2nd or 3rd ghost. Do you see protoss bring ONE HT with their army in lategame? Just by getting a few ghosts, you completely annihilate any options of immortals, sentry and HT and you get to instantly damage all the protoss army 30-50% at the start of an engagement. Retreating is a nub reaction, there's no force field (bye bye energy!) to prevent a STIM chase (im not even factoring in conc shells). If you think you can micro to avoid EMP, i like to see you try it. Heck you can even do it in the Unit Tester on an open field, spread that protoss army into a few groups before attacking. Have just *2* ghosts with 150 energy, see if u can't EMP all the army. It's easy as hell. Hold E, click click click. You just EMPed pretty much every unit.. Now try to micro out of a psi storm. See how much easier that is. Jeezus some ppl are ignorant. It's just mechanics 101. Instant aoe vs 4s dura aoe, much longer range, no cooldown spam-able. Just understand that simple fact first. | ||
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