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Or increasing the energy cost of EMP and / or lowering the inital energy ghosts start with.
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On June 13 2010 01:18 SilverforceX wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote:
I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody).
Actually if you did read my posts, im not the first to be a jerk. I respond to jerks who random insult me in a jerky manner however, that i do admit. All my points are valid and isn't reliance on BO because 1. Ghost Academy is extremely cheap and low tech after barracks. It's 50 gas. Peanuts really, that's 1 stalker worth. 2. Ghost complement all terran forces well, bio or mech. The fact that the majority of terran do so well without even using ghosts is a testament to how OP ghost can be when added to an already well performing terran army. As attested by others, EMP is just imba due to its long range, instant effect and no microing to minimize its impact. Fungal Growth is similar but nowhere near the potency since it doesn't strip all energy and have the longest spell range, so in that sense its quite balanced. The difference between the aoe spells is quite drastic and only EMP really stand out as totally imba.The points have already been well discussed. All it needs is a few tweaks: reduce range (10 is too much, makes it able to counter everything that is a threat, i.e. feedback, neural parasite etc), timing. Ghosts just pop out way too fast as was shown by my example of Sentry timing. If terran wanted to get a quick ghosts, it will pop out only a little bit after a Sentry would.. and it comes with EMP without requiring any research. Just let me remind those few once again, in BW, EMP was from the science vessel. It's a T3 unit, and EMP required a very expensive research to obtain. The vessel couldn't cloak, it stood out, and... importantly, it's range was shorter than feedback allowing a good protoss to micro feedback to counter EMP, yet it was still powerful. Look at how its implemented now and any reasonable person would have to conclude its imba. Btw. Add 2 extra units that ghosts also completely shutdown, DT and observers. EMP reveals cloaked units for ages.. why does it need that effect as well? It's an AOE feedback, storm and scan combined. Stupid.
People have been complaining about ghosts since the beta came out. I'm going to summarize by quoting from some of the previous EMP threads, I think the first two really nail this thread:
On May 04 2010 06:19 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 06:08 QuakerOats wrote:On May 04 2010 06:02 Chill wrote:On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote:
I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault. Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game. Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses. Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah. Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever.
On May 04 2010 06:02 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote:
I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault. Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game. Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses.
On March 03 2010 23:30 IdrA wrote:
emp is not overpowered, if t didnt have emp tvp would be literally impossible.
chances are you're not abusing the early game hard enough and so you're playing the mid game from behind, which makes everything seem more powerful than it actually is.
On March 16 2010 23:24 IdrA wrote:
its not about entirely avoiding, thats not gonna happen, its about minimizing damage
protoss army is much, much stronger than the terran army and killing every ghost is impractical vs a good terran. obviously it can happen if they make a mistake or you catch them off guard but really it shouldnt. theyre supposed to be able to emp you, and you can take emps on portions of your army and still win easily. even after an emp a handful of collosus' will decimate a bio army, as will 1 temp that manages to avoid an emp.
On March 17 2010 06:29 Louder wrote:
I do fast EMP builds all the time, and I still get stomped routinely vs P, and I'm #1 in my division at about 2040 points. Ghosts are not cheap, and they slow other tech and production of other barracks units with their high cost and long build time.
Players who go 2 gate robo / expand, then dt while taking a high yield, into mass charge-lot + mass temp beat me pretty often. They can make so many goddamned probes and make me waste EMPs to spot DTs while they just add more and more gates and more and more probes, steadily making units a few at a time... by the time I can actually mount an attack i get proper fucked by a milion speed zeals + immortals and templars.
Granted most of the posts occurred multiple patches ago so some of the arguments are weaker now but they're not entirely without merit. Mostly what I get when I read this thread is a bunch of protoss complaining without any substantial arguments that EMP is imba. The most popular one "EMP is instant and has too long of a range" is basically "I can't avoid EMPs please nerf" misses the larger game balance completely. You're not supposed to avoid the EMPs that's why it's instant cast with a long range  Any serious discussion of EMP balance has to take into account all of the other nuances of the MU and that's totally absent in this thread. I really hope Blizzard isn't reading this.
EDIT: clarity
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The merits of comparing storm to EMP, or ghosts to high templars, or any Terran unit directly to Protoss unit are very limited. One of the things that makes starcraft (1&2) such great games is that the races are SO unique, (Think of Age of Empires, while good, it was always doomed to get stale).
That being said, we still have our EMP discussion. My personal suggestion is to make feedback range 10, and make EMP range 8 (+2 w/ radius) so it comes down to straight micro over who counters who in that particular fight.
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On June 13 2010 02:09 space_yes wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 01:18 SilverforceX wrote:On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote:
I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody).
Actually if you did read my posts, im not the first to be a jerk. I respond to jerks who random insult me in a jerky manner however, that i do admit. All my points are valid and isn't reliance on BO because 1. Ghost Academy is extremely cheap and low tech after barracks. It's 50 gas. Peanuts really, that's 1 stalker worth. 2. Ghost complement all terran forces well, bio or mech. The fact that the majority of terran do so well without even using ghosts is a testament to how OP ghost can be when added to an already well performing terran army. As attested by others, EMP is just imba due to its long range, instant effect and no microing to minimize its impact. Fungal Growth is similar but nowhere near the potency since it doesn't strip all energy and have the longest spell range, so in that sense its quite balanced. The difference between the aoe spells is quite drastic and only EMP really stand out as totally imba.The points have already been well discussed. All it needs is a few tweaks: reduce range (10 is too much, makes it able to counter everything that is a threat, i.e. feedback, neural parasite etc), timing. Ghosts just pop out way too fast as was shown by my example of Sentry timing. If terran wanted to get a quick ghosts, it will pop out only a little bit after a Sentry would.. and it comes with EMP without requiring any research. Just let me remind those few once again, in BW, EMP was from the science vessel. It's a T3 unit, and EMP required a very expensive research to obtain. The vessel couldn't cloak, it stood out, and... importantly, it's range was shorter than feedback allowing a good protoss to micro feedback to counter EMP, yet it was still powerful. Look at how its implemented now and any reasonable person would have to conclude its imba. Btw. Add 2 extra units that ghosts also completely shutdown, DT and observers. EMP reveals cloaked units for ages.. why does it need that effect as well? It's an AOE feedback, storm and scan combined. Stupid. People have been complaining about ghosts since the beta came out. I'm going to summarize by quoting from some of the previous EMP threads, I think the first two really nail this thread: Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 06:19 Chill wrote:On May 04 2010 06:08 QuakerOats wrote:On May 04 2010 06:02 Chill wrote:On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote:
I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault. Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game. Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses. Yeah but this is the beta, where balance is supposed to be worked out. There's no harm in discussing whether something is imbalanced or not. If SC1 players blamed themselves when they lost to 4pool cuz spawning pool was 150 minerals... yeah. Read this thread. There's no proof of anything posted anywhere. There's pseudo mathematical discussions about cost and timing, and then there's 6 pages of people posting their feelings and experiences. It's a terrible discussion with nothing objective whatsoever. Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 06:02 Chill wrote:On May 04 2010 05:59 Lafer wrote:
I lost to a Terran who had an MMM ball and a ghost or two, EMP just demolished my army. However, it was entirely my fault. Fantastic post (no sarcasm). Would like to see more posters blaming themselves than the game. Stop changing the game and fucking take responsibility for your losses. Show nested quote +On March 03 2010 23:30 IdrA wrote:
emp is not overpowered, if t didnt have emp tvp would be literally impossible.
chances are you're not abusing the early game hard enough and so you're playing the mid game from behind, which makes everything seem more powerful than it actually is.
Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 23:24 IdrA wrote:
its not about entirely avoiding, thats not gonna happen, its about minimizing damage
protoss army is much, much stronger than the terran army and killing every ghost is impractical vs a good terran. obviously it can happen if they make a mistake or you catch them off guard but really it shouldnt. theyre supposed to be able to emp you, and you can take emps on portions of your army and still win easily. even after an emp a handful of collosus' will decimate a bio army, as will 1 temp that manages to avoid an emp.
Show nested quote +On March 17 2010 06:29 Louder wrote:
I do fast EMP builds all the time, and I still get stomped routinely vs P, and I'm #1 in my division at about 2040 points. Ghosts are not cheap, and they slow other tech and production of other barracks units with their high cost and long build time.
Players who go 2 gate robo / expand, then dt while taking a high yield, into mass charge-lot + mass temp beat me pretty often. They can make so many goddamned probes and make me waste EMPs to spot DTs while they just add more and more gates and more and more probes, steadily making units a few at a time... by the time I can actually mount an attack i get proper fucked by a milion speed zeals + immortals and templars. Granted most of the posts occurred multiple patches ago so some of the arguments are weaker now but they're not entirely without merit. Mostly what I get when I read this thread is a bunch of protoss complaining without any substantial arguments that EMP is imba. The most popular one "EMP is instant and has too long of a range" is basically "I can't avoid EMPs please nerf" misses the larger game balance completely. You're not supposed to avoid the EMPs that's why it's instant cast with a long range Any serious discussion of EMP balance has to take into account all of the other nuances of the MU and that's totally absent in this thread. I really hope Blizzard isn't reading this. EDIT: clarity
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
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On June 13 2010 00:14 Bibdy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 16:08 trucejl wrote:On June 12 2010 14:53 Bibdy wrote:On June 12 2010 10:09 trucejl wrote:On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote:
And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile. against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before. only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant. So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings. And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob. There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things. rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming No, the plan revolves around a long-ass game against a Terran player. How many PvTs have you played that lasted 20+ minutes? I dunno about you, but it happens to me ALL the time. They love this 1/1/1 'counter all possible early Protoss pushes in one build' stuff, sit back defensively, create their beloved gigantic bio/tank/viking army of death, then commence 1a'ing. It doesn't matter if he spots it. I WANT him to spot it, so he builds Vikings, at which point I just Psi Storm the fuck out of the things (and the Marines) when the armies collide and then the ONLY two threats to my Void Rays are obliterated. Thors? Pfft. Weak damage to armoured and a little splash isn't going to beat how much damage VRs do to Thors. Battlecruisers? Void Rays eat BCs for breakfast (if there's no Marines or Vikings nearby...oh wait!). Ravens? Just chew up the Auto Turrets and move on. Nothing else can even hit them. Its not my problem if you don't want to exploit this, and just keep dealing with getting your ground army crushed day in and day out by Terrans EMPing your blob, sniping your Collossi with Vikings and slowly crawling their way up to your front door with Siege Tanks. Have fun with that. And even if he spots it, you think he's going to have Missile Turrets EVERYWHERE to stop my Void Rays poking in and charging to full off some building in the corner of his base? So naieve and so unwilling to try things out. You people are your own worst enemy.
u must be playing some horrible ppl that just turtles 24/7. do all terran u play turtle till 200/200? if the terran is turtlin up like crazy u can just expand all over n build w/e u want to win
i dont think u get that once he has ghost the chance of u getting storm off in major engagement is quite low. with storm gone there goes ur way of dealing with marines n viking
there is so many flaws in ur plan that the terran has to be extremely bad for it to work
for u to think that the terran isnt going built turrets when he c ray tells me u r prob playing ppl in bronze -.-. any decent player for any race will at the latest push out with a 60~ army. with u teching to ray speed, ull be dead by then
since this thread is about emp play n not void ray + turtling terran this is my last post responding to u.
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I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game.
And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
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On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
agreed. ghost rush is ineffective bc even if u destroy the toss army, ur own army wont be big enough to kill the toss bef reinforcement. ghost is dangerous in the mid game when terran cut a few marine/marauder for a few ghost n push out then
the reason rays nerfed was bc it punished those who dont scout/micro too hard n blizz prob felt it made ppl rage quit lol. doubt it was nerfed bc it was op. tester said in a interview with artosis bef the nerf that ppl who do void ray rushes r free wins bc they r so easy to play against
the problem with ghost is that even with micro/scout it still decimate any toss army
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On June 13 2010 02:09 space_yes wrote:Granted most of the posts occurred multiple patches ago so some of the arguments are weaker now but they're not entirely without merit. Mostly what I get when I read this thread is a bunch of protoss complaining without any substantial arguments that EMP is imba. The most popular one "EMP is instant and has too long of a range" is basically "I can't avoid EMPs please nerf" misses the larger game balance completely. You're not supposed to avoid the EMPs that's why it's instant cast with a long range Any serious discussion of EMP balance has to take into account all of the other nuances of the MU and that's totally absent in this thread. I really hope Blizzard isn't reading this. EDIT: clarity
Here's a few arguments.
1) Difference in effort. Adding ghosts requires the Terran player to add one step to his game, pressing E and clicking on the enemy (which is a pretty simple step). The Protoss player has to spread out his army (very complex if he's on the move), try to feedback the ghost and possibly retreat if things get out of hand. It's something like a 4-1 complexity increase which is pretty much the definition of imbalance (where one player will consistently beat players of an equal skill level because of a mechanic).
2) Ghosts fit too well into a marauder ball. First they EMP, and then they sit in the ball and attack with the same range, damage and speed as a marauder. It requires no extra micro to use them besides actually EMPing stuff. They are also hard to see in a moving ball which makes it hard to deal with them with feedback, even if you do get in there with an HT before they can EMP it.
3) EMP in SC1 was on a tier 3 unit that costs more gas than a ghost and sticks out, had less range, required an enormous investment in research to use and cost more energy and it was still good. If it had all those drawbacks before, maybe its a little too good now.
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On June 13 2010 03:29 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 00:14 Bibdy wrote:On June 12 2010 16:08 trucejl wrote:On June 12 2010 14:53 Bibdy wrote:On June 12 2010 10:09 trucejl wrote:On June 12 2010 08:45 Bibdy wrote:
And its why I exploit Void Rays against Terrans in literally all of my late-game battles. It doesn't feel like a strategy, because its so obvious. Build some Void Rays with Flux Veins, he gets some Vikings, but keep them at the back. When the big ground armies meet, Psi Storm the absolute fuck out of the Marines and Vikings then send in the Void Rays (focus-firing remaining Vikings and Thors first - all the Marines are likely dead). What's he gonna do at that point? Pretty much just sit on the ground and die and pray he can build enough Marines and Vikings to hold the Void Rays back after they've snacked on the rest of his army.
Edit: The overwhelming combination of EMP, Stims, Siege Tanks, Banshees and PDD (take your pick & mix) makes any ground army from the Protoss an enormous risk, and Terran's weakness to upgraded Void Rays can be exploited incredibly easily, because the only two units that counter Void Rays in the Terran's arsenal have a huge, huge problem countering them when they're fully charged. Plus, tons and tons of Terrans like making Tech Labs on everything (can't say I blame them), which just slows down the production of Marines and Vikings after the big army collision.
It feels cheap, but it works almost flawlessly in a long PvT battle. Both units need some work.
And if it were my decision, I'd make EMP a projectile, and change Flux Veins to no longer grant more speed/acceleration, but make Void Rays charge faster, and have a longer range, so they aren't just expensive protection for your Collossi from Vikings when thrown into these large-scale battles. Its the Flux-Vein speed, while fully-charged that makes Void Rays utterly, utterly crush Vikings like no other, which leaves Terran's only counter to a late game blob of charged Void Rays, a truly massive Marine blob, which is one of the least mobile things in the world chasing around one of the most mobile. against good players no number of void rays will beat vikings, the 3 range diff makes its so easy to micro whether rays r charged or not. doesnt matter if they can nvr hit the viking. if they stay on the building they will die to the viking pretty fast, if they chase the viking thats just asking to do no dmg n lose the ray ur logic fails in that for every void ray toss makes their ground army is smaller but making vikings also makes terran ground smaller. hence void ray has 0 effect besides add some viking vs void ray micro. by the time toss ground gets big enough to attack they will still have ghost n it will still rip toss ground apart like before. only time rays work against terran is if the terran fails to scout n makes 0 viking. even if not scouted, depending on the map a handful of stim marines will still own void rays Did you even read more than like a sentence of that? Void Rays DESTROY Vikings when they're A) fully charged and B) have the speed upgrade. If they show up to the fight uncharged (speed upgrade or not), yeah, they lose, but if you sneak Void Rays to the edge of a Terran's base while his army is off somewhere else (you only need 6 seconds), charge off a building, and then Vikings show up? Its no contest. The vikings get ripped to pieces in an instant. So, you just use the Voids Rays to keep sneaking around and sniping buildings and raping the Vikings when they arrive to help. They have a speed of 3.375 after the upgrade, compared to the Viking's 2.75. There's absolutely no way for them to kite and Void Rays, fully charged, do tremendous damage to Vikings. And when you have the situation where two large armies collide? That's the ENTIRE point. You SACRIFICE your ground army just to focus your Psi Storms on his Marines and Vikings. Psi Storm can destroy Marines almost instantly, and it will severely wound the Vikings so your Void Rays can mop them up, then tear up the rest of the army. A bunch of Vikings at low health after Psi Storms aren't going to be particularly scary to a Void Ray blob. There is no logic failure here. Its all about removing all of your opponents AA and then tearing them up with air units. I've beaten lots of Plat/Diamond Terrans EASILY doing exactly these two things. rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming No, the plan revolves around a long-ass game against a Terran player. How many PvTs have you played that lasted 20+ minutes? I dunno about you, but it happens to me ALL the time. They love this 1/1/1 'counter all possible early Protoss pushes in one build' stuff, sit back defensively, create their beloved gigantic bio/tank/viking army of death, then commence 1a'ing. It doesn't matter if he spots it. I WANT him to spot it, so he builds Vikings, at which point I just Psi Storm the fuck out of the things (and the Marines) when the armies collide and then the ONLY two threats to my Void Rays are obliterated. Thors? Pfft. Weak damage to armoured and a little splash isn't going to beat how much damage VRs do to Thors. Battlecruisers? Void Rays eat BCs for breakfast (if there's no Marines or Vikings nearby...oh wait!). Ravens? Just chew up the Auto Turrets and move on. Nothing else can even hit them. Its not my problem if you don't want to exploit this, and just keep dealing with getting your ground army crushed day in and day out by Terrans EMPing your blob, sniping your Collossi with Vikings and slowly crawling their way up to your front door with Siege Tanks. Have fun with that. And even if he spots it, you think he's going to have Missile Turrets EVERYWHERE to stop my Void Rays poking in and charging to full off some building in the corner of his base? So naieve and so unwilling to try things out. You people are your own worst enemy. u must be playing some horrible ppl that just turtles 24/7. do all terran u play turtle till 200/200? if the terran is turtlin up like crazy u can just expand all over n build w/e u want to win i dont think u get that once he has ghost the chance of u getting storm off in major engagement is quite low. with storm gone there goes ur way of dealing with marines n viking there is so many flaws in ur plan that the terran has to be extremely bad for it to work for u to think that the terran isnt going built turrets when he c ray tells me u r prob playing ppl in bronze -.-. any decent player for any race will at the latest push out with a 60~ army. with u teching to ray speed, ull be dead by then since this thread is about emp play n not void ray + turtling terran this is my last post responding to u.
I don't think you get that I've used it, and won, while you haven't used it, are outright denying the existence of a viable strategy, something that is so plainly simple and obvious (kill AA units, send in Air units, capitalize on opponent's inability to create counters to said air units, win), for what? Because you don't think its gonna work in reality?
Again, you're your own worst enemy here. I don't need to convince you and there's no a hope in hell of you convincing me this tactic doesn't work. I've got something up my sleeve that's worked plenty of times in the past and I'm trying to explain it to people so they can use it. Not my problem if you don't want to use it.
Only reason its been brought up, and in this thread, is because THIS is what EMP makes me resort to.
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On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks.
You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough:
The problems with EMP:
1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required
2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units
The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
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On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter.
The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower.
Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
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On June 13 2010 04:13 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter. The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
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i would like to see emp energy cost bumped to 125 or turn emp into a dot that drops energy/shields over the aoe so its not instant
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On June 13 2010 04:22 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 04:13 D3lta wrote:On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter. The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it. the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing
Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges.
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On June 13 2010 04:37 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 04:22 trucejl wrote:On June 13 2010 04:13 D3lta wrote:On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter. The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it. the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges.
its the same when their army marches into ur base after ur 8th min army gets ownt by emp
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On June 13 2010 04:42 trucejl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 04:37 D3lta wrote:On June 13 2010 04:22 trucejl wrote:On June 13 2010 04:13 D3lta wrote:On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter. The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it. the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges. its the same when their army marches into ur base after ur 8th min army gets ownt by emp
If you lose to some T charging you with marines and ghosts 8 mins in the game, i submit that it is your fault. It is easily countered. As with marauder/ghost. It is no way harder to counter than VRs (in their current form).
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On June 13 2010 04:50 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 04:42 trucejl wrote:On June 13 2010 04:37 D3lta wrote:On June 13 2010 04:22 trucejl wrote:On June 13 2010 04:13 D3lta wrote:On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter. The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it. the same could be said for void ray nerf. top players also say there r plenty of ways to deal with it n it was not op yet blizz nerfs it. double standard is nvr good for balancing Void rays destroyed your base and you would WIN. Ghosts give you an edge in a head to head battle (that is blown out of proportions this thread). Ghosts don't come to you base at the 8 min mark and destroy your nexus. You can't avoid ghost emp, but you can completely kite/destroy viodray's deathray by microing a viking. Apples and oranges. its the same when their army marches into ur base after ur 8th min army gets ownt by emp If you lose to some T charging you with marines and ghosts 8 mins in the game, i submit that it is your fault. It is easily countered. As with marauder/ghost. It is no way harder to counter than VRs (in their current form).
a handful of marine/marauder+ ghost will decimate anything toss can bring out at that pt
funny how u say marine/ghost or marauder/ghost, wat makes u think terran wont get some of both? nothing out of the norm for terran to be producing outta 4-5 barracks at that pt
so how would u "counter" that marine/marauder/ghost push?
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On June 13 2010 04:13 D3lta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2010 04:00 Ghostcom wrote:On June 13 2010 03:34 D3lta wrote:
I'm pretty sure none of the players in this thread has claimed to be flawless. The main argument I've seen was that the effort needed to keep up with a terran using ghosts was much bigger than the terran utilizing the ghosts. The fun part is that this argument is 100% the same as the one terran players used to get the VR range nerfed. That and how fast the VR could arrive - again another complaint by protoss players: the EMP is too powerful for when it arrives - it is at the same level of tech as the cybercore and counters immortals, observers AND tier 3 units (both sorts of templars) whilst seriously laying the hurt on the rest of the army.
How come that when terrans use these arguments they are the rightous race and blizzard should definatly listen to them, but whenever protoss players use the same arguments they are called whiners who don't provide any sort of proof? A standard is good - double standards are twice as good?
EDIT: I don't in any way disagree with the VR range nerf - it was called for, I'm just voicing my observations.
You really think ghost rushs that end that game in >7 mins are as rampant as VR use was? really? Toss are using the same argument? Because most of toss here aren't even complaining about "ghost rushes" but the ability to counter emp with HTs or otherwise late game. And can we quit pretending that -1 range off VR was a huge nerf. VR gimmicks stopped auto winning games before the nerf, simply because T learned how to get a fast viking and micro them with marines. The nerf just made this slightly easier, because a charged VR will decimate a viking in 3 ticks. You didn't read my post - or else I didn't make myself clear enough: The problems with EMP: 1) HUGE gain with VERY little attention required 2) To "avoid" it requires a HUGE amount of attention and you'll still end up with a shitload of useless/dead units The VR was nerfed due to (blizzard said so themselves) the difference between the effort required to pull the VR rush off and the effort to prevent it was too high. This is the major complaint most protoss players are making: the difference is too big and dealing with it is simply not possible since spreading out will only do so much and it is unavoidable, meaning that a smart terran will only use it in conjuction with a battle in which case stimmed MM will hunt the protoss down if they try to flee and if they stay the P is effectively playing with a 30-50% handicap AND the very units that are supposed to counter the terran army have lost their attribute which made them a counter. The nerfed VR range because it ended games in >7 mins for players that didn't micro well enough. VR was basically an auto-win for anyone in gold league or lower. Again, like all other people complaining about emp in this thread, you assume the emp should be able to be hard countered. You also claim with no mathematical or replay evidence, that a toss army stands no chance vs a terran army once a few emps go off. You conveniently ignored the comments quoted by top players (that don't even play terran) stating that emp is not imbalanced, and the entire argument that is actually presented, choosing to constantly drill on about how much harder it is to do something about emp than to cast it.
Void Rays are being used aggressively against terrans now, using their range and speed to trap a terran player in their base. This is pretty fun for the protoss player but at a variety of skill levels it is too difficult for the terran player to stop, even if the player sees it coming with good scouting. We think a slight range reduction will help with this match-up without doing too much damage to other matchups.
This is the reasoning behind the VR nerf Blizzard gave. Notice it says "trap the player in the base" and "too difficult to stop even if the player sees it coming" - NOTHING about ending the match in <7 minuts. Stop making up stuff.
Regarding your quotes:
1) They are old (1 from this month, the rest are 2 - TWO months old)
2) They don't say what you want them to say; i.e. chill is more about how we should approach the game as being fixed and the flaw is more realisticly due to the players. But the difference between what the attention required to use a ghost to its optimum and what it requires to work around it is without question VERY big.
I don't think I have said ANYWHERE that I wanted it to be hard-counterable. I want it to require the same attention as working around it does - which is why I advocate letting it stay as is, except giving it a projectile so it is dodgeable. One could argue that it would be too much of a hit or miss which I will partly agree with - thus the solution by making it "tick" sorta like storm is imho decent. Again, the reason WHY everyone in favor of a change is drilling on the "equal payout for equal work" is because that is one of the standards blizzard themselves uses.
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go watch brat tvp replays from last zotac.
mass rines with couple ghosts + medivacs > everything huk could come up with. including dts and 4gate contain. he doesnt scout, doesnt adapt his pvt build in the whole tourney from what ive seen and his reaper does 0 damage. yet marines + medics + ghosts synergy destroys every p combo, especially shocking is the demolition of a bigger 4gate army while losing only couple marines. not dissing him for abusing it but its just sad to watch.
wish i could provide more details but shit patch broke replay function :/
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I would be fine with EMP if it still had a projectile, giving me the chance to dodge it.
I don't think very many (decent) Protoss just sit there army in a ball and wait to engage. I also don't think very many Terrans shoot EMPs off like a high-school boy in the girls locker room. They wait until the engagement happens, and then they EMP the army. This is what I have trouble with, because in this instance it is 100% unavoidable.
So what do you do? You're left in a position where a) you can't attack in and b) they don't have to move out until they have a well-rounded army that can hold it's own on a slow push out of his base.
As Protoss, if they go Ghosts, (it feels) like you have 2 options: attack before EMP (not likely to outproduce a MULEing Terran early enough, unless he was greedy), or option 2: wait for him to move out and hope you can attack him while he's back at his base macroing.
I'm sure it's fun for the T, but sitting in a Terran-dictated stalemate until it's time to lose isn't very fun for P.
PvT as a whole is a balanced match-up. Lots of diversity and for the most part, entertaining to play. It just loses some of that entertainment when Terran busts out a unit/spell that you have nothing you can do about.
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EPT
