EPTPvT way to deal with EMP - Page 7
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Sets
United States59 Posts
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Skyro
United States1823 Posts
News flash to all protoss players, there's no point trying to think of ways to counter or avoid emp, just deal with it and move on. The faster you realize this the faster you can move on and not ball up in the fetal position every time you see a ghost academy. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On June 12 2010 17:46 SilverforceX wrote: Ofcourse my points are valid. "You can micro by spreading your army to avoid EMP, like how a terran can micro out of Storm". This a rubbish argument, because 1. EMP is instant in its effect so if it hits, you can't do anything. 2. It's got a huge range to reach any spread of army you want. 3. There's no short cooldown on it, so 1 ghost with enough energy can chain cast 2 EMP by itself. Just having 2 or 3 ghosts ONLY will be enough to cover any spread of protoss army in mid/late game. Just 1 ghost with ONE EMP in early game is enough to reduce the HP of a zealot/sentry/stalker force by a huge margin as well as removing a lot of sentry energy. It's a strawman argument because it doesn't acknowledge the scale of the spell involved. There's NO WAY TO MICRO effectively to mitigate EMP in any ground engagement. If you (Sylvr) truly believe that it's as effective to micro to avoid EMP as it is for storm, you are the only retard here. "If you are spread out, then he NEEDS to use more Ghosts to cover your army. You are COSTING him something. If you then RUN AWAY, then he used them for NOTHING. Why is this so hard to understand? This is not ultra APM intensive super mechanical micro tactics here. This is common sense!" ---- Are you just clueless? By the time an army is large enough that spreading out will warrant a few EMP for coverage, is when a Terran can afford a 2nd or 3rd ghost. Do you see protoss bring ONE HT with their army in lategame? Just by getting a few ghosts, you completely annihilate any options of immortals, sentry and HT and you get to instantly damage all the protoss army 30-50% at the start of an engagement. Retreating is a nub reaction, there's no force field (bye bye energy!) to prevent a STIM chase (im not even factoring in conc shells). If you think you can micro to avoid EMP, i like to see you try it. Heck you can even do it in the Unit Tester on an open field, spread that protoss army into a few groups before attacking. Have just *2* ghosts with 150 energy, see if u can't EMP all the army. It's easy as hell. Hold E, click click click. You just EMPed pretty much every unit.. Now try to micro out of a psi storm. See how much easier that is. Jeezus some ppl are ignorant. It's just mechanics 101. Instant aoe vs 4s dura aoe, much longer range, no cooldown spam-able. Just understand that simple fact first. I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody). Chill out a little bit. My advice is to go download some PvT replays from sc2win or gosugamers. When you're done watching them come back to this thread  From reading your posts you generally make a lot abstract arguments that are not build contextual and claim imbalance. What the opening builds are plays a huge role in early -> mid game EMP usage. It's not a question of pure ability comparisons in a vacuum. For example, void ray openings can really punish the terran if they went fast ghost as opposed to reactor core marine/tank/port. If I didn't know anything about Starcraft I'd think from your posts that there was no way a protoss player could possibly ever win against a terran player who uses EMP but my own experience and both the ladder and tournament results prove otherwise. I'd be curious what high level competitive protoss or terran players think if they're reading this thread. Please post p.s. plat/diamond doesn't mean you're high level btw EDIT: clarity | ||
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zephon
France26 Posts
On June 12 2010 15:29 SilverforceX wrote: Would it be so bad if EMP had its range reduced to 6 instead of freaken 10? +1 It's seems reasonable to me. EMP wont lose its effectiveness, but will be more counterable (will force the ghost to show itself). | ||
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Kratisto
United States199 Posts
I think it's an imbalanced ability, and given that you can't really do anything to counter it, it's also completely uninteresting. I'd like to see it changed so that the Protoss player can pull off some clutch micro to avoid it. Perhaps the EMP could function like a quick Nuclear strike, where a blue nuke-like logo would appear for both players (rather than just the dot), and then a short time later (5 or so game ticks), the EMP would hit. If it is also a channeled ability, it makes Cloak even more vital to the Ghost's performance, and sniping the Ghost before the EMP can drop becomes an intense struggle for the Protoss player. It's also odd that it outranges Feedback: Since Feedback is a single-target ability, I would think that it, and not EMP, would be the ultimate caster counter, which brings me to the next part of my rant: It's really, really hard to target a Ghost with Feedback who is in the middle of a large Terran bio ball. Making the Ghost larger doesn't make any sense, since a Ghost is just a human in a jumpsuit, but I think the area around the ghost could be increased so that a ghost would be separated from a mass of marines by a marine-width or so. This small tweak would make it much easier to identify and target ghosts. tl;dr: EMP is overpowered and uninteresting. Changing its delivery to a fast Nuke would make it counter-able and intense gameplay-wise. | ||
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Deleted User 61629
1664 Posts
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Sets
United States59 Posts
On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote: I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody). Keep it up and you'll catch the attention of the mods. Chill out a little bit. You already flamed one person out of this discussion. My advice is to go download some PvT replays from sc2win or gosugamers. When you're done watching them come back to this thread From reading your posts you generally make a lot abstract arguments that are not build contextual and claim imbalance. What the opening builds are plays a huge role in early -> mid game EMP usage. It's not a question of pure ability comparisons in a vacuum. For example, void ray openings can really punish the terran if they went fast ghost as opposed to reactor core marine/tank/port. If I didn't know anything about Starcraft I'd think from your posts that there was no way a protoss player could possibly ever win against a terran player who uses EMP but my own experience and both the ladder and tournament results prove otherwise. I'd be curious what high level competitive protoss or terran players think if they're reading this thread. Please post p.s. plat/diamond doesn't mean you're high level btw 1. He just stated his arguments. If you want to recap, EMP is instant. There's nothing you can do as a Protoss player. Storm is DoT damage. You can simply walk away from getting any of your units killed as a Terran player. The APM required to fully spread out your units and be able to have some units attack at the same time is quite large compared to a simple 'E' and click of the Terran's EMP shot rending any casters unless and units weaker when hit. 2. Terrans don't start off with fast ghost but rather Marauders, Marines, and either Factory/Port units. They can incorporate Ghosts during mid/late Ghost regardless of the combination of units the Terran player chooses. Thus, BO openings are irrelevant to the situation. 3. I think you're trolling if you called his opinion useless while admitting that he's a Diamond League player while desiring higher level player's opinion. | ||
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lew
Belgium205 Posts
I hope that blizzard moves the EMP to the raven, and makes it fire like the vessel did. | ||
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E-Coffee
Canada519 Posts
Really like the idea of moving emp to the raven. | ||
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space_yes
United States548 Posts
On June 12 2010 19:46 Sets wrote: 1. He just stated his arguments. If you want to recap, EMP is instant. There's nothing you can do as a Protoss player. Storm is DoT damage. You can simply walk away from getting any of your units killed as a Terran player. The APM required to fully spread out your units and be able to have some units attack at the same time is quite large compared to a simple 'E' and click of the Terran's EMP shot rending any casters unless and units weaker when hit. Read his post, then re-read mine. 2. Terrans don't start off with fast ghost but rather Marauders, Marines, and either Factory/Port units. They can incorporate Ghosts during mid/late Ghost regardless of the combination of units the Terran player chooses. Thus, BO openings are irrelevant to the situation. Build orders are irrelevant to ghost usage? Seriously? 3. I think you're trolling if you called his opinion useless while admitting that he's a Diamond League player while desiring higher level player's opinion. Where did I say his opinion was useless? His posts have lots of technical information albeit it's all completely abstract. Balance isn't a pure comparison of abilities in a vacuum. Also who said he was a diamond level player? No offense but getting diamond level isn't that hard. I can see why you wouldn't think this if you didn't play BW . High level players are people who play in real leagues and tournaments; they are not random D+/C-/C iccup newbies (which includes me) or anyone who qualified for the highest league. My little brother has 40ish apm and he got plat (there wasn't diamond yet) the first 48 hours he played SC2 and he's never played any RTS except CoH and DoW. Just sayin.' | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
On June 12 2010 18:20 Sets wrote: Why don't they just make EMP research-able much like how you must research Psi Storm for HTs? That or make feedback AoE. I don't think it would be a good solution. This would mostly effect when a player ist able tu use EMP, but wouldn't change anything afterwards (i.e. in my eyes it would still be slightly to strong, if u manage to get it). Likewise in patch 6 and 7 they didn't increase the cost of EMP/Psi-Storm, but decreased its radius, because it was to strong once it could be used. | ||
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Kerotan89
United Kingdom51 Posts
Terran can easily rush 5-6 maradaurs and one ghost, push and tottally rape any type of protoss army at this time, minor a phoenix rush, but even then the protoss army cant do much with 1-2 phoenixs. It forces the Protoss to stick to one base spreading around his ramp for a long time whilst he techs up to HT's or something else, but if you fuck up on the positioning your as good as dead. | ||
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D3lta
United States93 Posts
On June 12 2010 19:32 Kratisto wrote: I'd like to see it changed so that the Protoss player can pull off some clutch micro to avoid it. Perhaps the EMP could function like a quick Nuclear strike, where a blue nuke-like logo would appear for both players (rather than just the dot), and then a short time later (5 or so game ticks), the EMP would hit. If it is also a channeled ability, it makes Cloak even more vital to the Ghost's performance, and sniping the Ghost before the EMP can drop becomes an intense struggle for the Protoss player. It's also odd that it outranges Feedback: Since Feedback is a single-target ability, I would think that it, and not EMP, would be the ultimate caster counter, which brings me to the next part of my rant: It's really, really hard to target a Ghost with Feedback who is in the middle of a large Terran bio ball. Making the Ghost larger doesn't make any sense, since a Ghost is just a human in a jumpsuit, but I think the area around the ghost could be increased so that a ghost would be separated from a mass of marines by a marine-width or so. This small tweak would make it much easier to identify and target ghosts. tl;dr: EMP is overpowered and uninteresting. Changing its delivery to a fast Nuke would make it counter-able and intense gameplay-wise. While this is a good start, I don't think its nearly enough. There needs to also be a audio "emp-strike" warning similar to that of nuke strikes. The emp shell then should drop from the sky on the given area. Perhaps if ghosts shone the different radioactive colors of the ghost academy (deep neon blue and red), with would help with the feedback issue. It would also make sense from a lore standpoint. I've been saying for AGES that storm should do bonus damage to armored units. How else are toss suppose to deal with tanks if you can't storm them with templars? It would probibly be a good a idea to increase the radius a bit too. | ||
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D3lta
United States93 Posts
On June 12 2010 21:29 Kerotan89 wrote: Protoss just needs a way to counter ghosts in the very early game.. I have no issues with mid/later-game ghosts. Terran can easily rush 5-6 maradaurs and one ghost, push and tottally rape any type of protoss army at this time, minor a phoenix rush, but even then the protoss army cant do much with 1-2 phoenixs. . I've been having this problem as well. Terran just come to my base with 6 marauders or so and ghost..and 6 ravens before I can do anything. I herd zealots are good against marauders so I've tried getting zealots and sentries and FF the choke. But the ravens just fly over the FF and seeker missle all my zealots. Then he rapes my base with a bunch of auto turrets and emp. Ive tried rushing to pheonix but then he just reactor cores a starport and gets 18 vikings. I fee like there's nothing you can do. | ||
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Kratisto
United States199 Posts
On June 12 2010 22:00 D3lta wrote: I've been having this problem as well. Terran just come to my base with 6 marauders or so and ghost..and 6 ravens before I can do anything. I herd zealots are good against marauders so I've tried getting zealots and sentries and FF the choke. But the ravens just fly over the FF and seeker missle all my zealots. Then he rapes my base with a bunch of auto turrets and emp. Ive tried rushing to pheonix but then he just reactor cores a starport and gets 18 vikings. I fee like there's nothing you can do. If he's getting six ravens AND ghosts you're doing something wrong. That's a lot of expensive tech that will greatly reduce the size of his army in the early game. The counter to Seeker Missile is to just run--Especially if you've set up FF so that he can't Conc Shell half your army (but even so, Seeker Missiles are sloooow and cost a lot of energy, and they aren't ultimately that effective except en masse). Zealots are great against Marauders... If you can hit them. For that, you either need to upgrade Charge or cut off their kiting with Force Fields. As for EMP... well... Yeah. | ||
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Hidden_MotiveS
Canada2562 Posts
Blizzard probably won't change anythiing right now though. edit: I'm not sure emp should be nerfed. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On June 12 2010 16:08 trucejl wrote: rofl ur so funny. to get speed u NEED fleet beacon n then research speed. all the while u r still trying to keep up with the terran ground force n hope he doesnt scout(scan) ur base realistically by the time u have speed upgraded rays, they will have scouted ur base for ray n they may or may not know about the fleet beacon. in response to that they will turret the hell outta their base + build a equivalent amount of viking to kill ur rays. the amount or resources he spents on getting viking is practically 0 since he would get starport+reactor for medivacs anyways. while u spent money on stargate, fleet beacon n speed assuming he doesnt just roflstomp ur ground army while ur teching to ray speed, he will have ghost to emp w/e ground army N ur ht(aka no storm) w/e u engage also there is no way u can survive till the late game against a decent player when ur spenting so much resource on rays as they suck in combat ur whole plan revolves around the terran nvr harassing u or pushing u while u tech. the ONLY time rays r good is when u surprise ur opponent with them. they r just way too easy to play against when ur opponent knows its coming No, the plan revolves around a long-ass game against a Terran player. How many PvTs have you played that lasted 20+ minutes? I dunno about you, but it happens to me ALL the time. They love this 1/1/1 'counter all possible early Protoss pushes in one build' stuff, sit back defensively, create their beloved gigantic bio/tank/viking army of death, then commence 1a'ing. It doesn't matter if he spots it. I WANT him to spot it, so he builds Vikings, at which point I just Psi Storm the fuck out of the things (and the Marines) when the armies collide and then the ONLY two threats to my Void Rays are obliterated. Thors? Pfft. Weak damage to armoured and a little splash isn't going to beat how much damage VRs do to Thors. Battlecruisers? Void Rays eat BCs for breakfast (if there's no Marines or Vikings nearby...oh wait!). Ravens? Just chew up the Auto Turrets and move on. Nothing else can even hit them. Its not my problem if you don't want to exploit this, and just keep dealing with getting your ground army crushed day in and day out by Terrans EMPing your blob, sniping your Collossi with Vikings and slowly crawling their way up to your front door with Siege Tanks. Have fun with that. And even if he spots it, you think he's going to have Missile Turrets EVERYWHERE to stop my Void Rays poking in and charging to full off some building in the corner of his base? So naieve and so unwilling to try things out. You people are your own worst enemy. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
Anyone to continue the ridiculous comparisons between storm and emp . If you are comparing them you need to compare relative damage instead of absolute. Yes in absolute terms emp appears to do more damage, but when blanket a protoss army with emp the damage to your force is nowhere close to the damage of a bioball getting hit with storm. For the very reason that you MUST run away from storm the emp is largely countered. You can still keep coming if you choose through the emp when your protoss and have a good number of hitpoints left, if you dont run out of that storm your entire bioball gets smoked. When I play protoss and hit a good storm the devestation is MUCH greater then when I get off a good EMP, the battle is far from over in the EMP scenario because the protoss just have tons of unaffected hp and its not that difficult to amass a really big army of protoss units, its not like you need to have an army twice the size to win because of getting empd. Try this not unlikely scenario for bio/ghosts. Blanket Emp the front line, stim, get stormed 1 tick, run out, now entire protoss army is at 60% hp and the terran marines are below 50%, need to stim again taking them down to 30% hp and mauraders down to 50%, and if the toss has another storm up his sleeve they will all die instantly. Not to mention the protoss can certainly do better then 1 tick if they place the storms well. Of course there will certainly be some tanks, maybe medvacs but not that many because of all the gas going into ghosts for blanket emp. Anyway these situations are totally contrived and will never occur like this, but the point is, the absolute comparison of storm to emp is flawed in that they effect the opposing races in different degrees. | ||
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zhul4nder
United States189 Posts
On June 12 2010 23:51 Hidden_MotiveS wrote: What if feedback were made smarter? So that you could cast it on an area, or a noncaster, and you'd automatically feedback a caster close to that area. It would've made lockdown more useful in sc1. Just a thought to deal with issue #2. Blizzard probably won't change anythiing right now though. edit: I'm not sure emp should be nerfed. What if FF was automatic? What if 250mm was automatic to massive stuff? What if storm was auto-matic? what if any energy ability was autonmatic? I sense overpoweredness in automaticness. | ||
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SilverforceX
Australia267 Posts
On June 12 2010 19:13 space_yes wrote: I don't like your tone at all. I've read your comments on various threads throughout the beta and you come off as a consistent jerk (name calling, caps lock spam, unwarranted arrogance from a nobody). Actually if you did read my posts, im not the first to be a jerk. I respond to jerks who random insult me in a jerky manner however, that i do admit. All my points are valid and isn't reliance on BO because 1. Ghost Academy is extremely cheap and low tech after barracks. It's 50 gas. Peanuts really, that's 1 stalker worth. 2. Ghost complement all terran forces well, bio or mech. The fact that the majority of terran do so well without even using ghosts is a testament to how OP ghost can be when added to an already well performing terran army. As attested by others, EMP is just imba due to its long range, instant effect and no microing to minimize its impact. Fungal Growth is similar but nowhere near the potency since it doesn't strip all energy and have the longest spell range, so in that sense its quite balanced. The difference between the aoe spells is quite drastic and only EMP really stand out as totally imba.The points have already been well discussed. All it needs is a few tweaks: reduce range (10 is too much, makes it able to counter everything that is a threat, i.e. feedback, neural parasite etc), timing. Ghosts just pop out way too fast as was shown by my example of Sentry timing. If terran wanted to get a quick ghosts, it will pop out only a little bit after a Sentry would.. and it comes with EMP without requiring any research. Just let me remind those few once again, in BW, EMP was from the science vessel. It's a T3 unit, and EMP required a very expensive research to obtain. The vessel couldn't cloak, it stood out, and... importantly, it's range was shorter than feedback allowing a good protoss to micro feedback to counter EMP, yet it was still powerful. Look at how its implemented now and any reasonable person would have to conclude its imba. Btw. Add 2 extra units that ghosts also completely shutdown, DT and observers. EMP reveals cloaked units for ages.. why does it need that effect as well? It's an AOE feedback, storm and scan combined. Stupid. | ||
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