EPTThe point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol.
PvT way to deal with EMP - Page 4
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
The point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
If it was a projectile, you'd have to lead targets, pick key ones and get less benefit by just spamming it all over the place mindlessly (like Psi Storm). Either that or just reduce the range a bit so the Protoss consumes his Psi Storm energy to counter the EMP, not the Ghost. All too often you'll micro perfectly and spend that energy to drain the Ghost(s), only to have every single EMP get off anyway. Now you've got no energy, no shield and you wounded a few Ghosts. Whoopie. The common suggestion of turning EMP into a research to delay the timing push doesn't fix the overall problem of it being too easy to use, and too strong of an effect when its in play, and would just make the Terran upgrade system even more crazy. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On June 12 2010 04:34 statikg wrote: Man I must have missed all the insta terran victories going on in which the terran just builds whatever they want, mix in a few ghosts, press E and win. Silly me. It must instead be the case that there are just more skilled protoss players and everyone terran is n00b and thats whats balancing the games out. The point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol. Maybe you've missed them because you lack the creativity to use them yourself and stick to what everyone else is raging about (presumably 1/1/1)? You only play your own TvP battles after all. You never see it from the other perspective. Want to know what Protoss players REALLY shit their pants over? Big Terran blobs with a handful of everything. 8 Siege Tanks? Piss easy to beat. 6 Siege Tanks and 2 Vikings? Ut oh. 4 Siege Tanks, 2 Vikings and 2 Ghosts? Now we're in trouble. | ||
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link0
United States1071 Posts
On June 12 2010 04:20 link0 wrote: The advantages HT have over ghosts: 1. Can warp in at any expansion or at the front lines with enough energy to immediately cast a storm. 2. Has feedback which is great against medivacs, thors, ghosts, banshees, and BCs 3. Can transform into an archon after energy is used up or if EMPed. 3. Although Psi storm does damage over time instead of instantly like EMP, it does 100% damage to marines and 75% damage to Marauders. Whereas EMP deals 33% damage to zealots and 50% damage to stalkers and sentries. 4. Terran units are smaller so they clump much more than Toss units. Therefore a Storm will hit many more targets. So no, Ghosts are not better than HT. They are both great support unit. As I have stated earlier, PSI storm does MUCH more damage than EMP. And the instant warp-in + storm is awesome. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On June 12 2010 04:34 statikg wrote: Man I must have missed all the insta terran victories going on in which the terran just builds whatever they want, mix in a few ghosts, press E and win. Silly me. It must instead be the case that there are just more skilled protoss players and everyone terran is n00b and thats whats balancing the games out. The point that you guys are missing is that if there are choices which are equal or superior to ghosts based on the situation, then there is balance - unless you want to make the bib argument that terran are just better then protoss in general...lol. I'm not missing your point. It's just your point is irrelevant to the thread: Toss has no workable solution to EMP. I will ignore your first paragraph because I've never made such statements. I will simply say it is the typical "terran-only-player-going-hyper-defensive" response. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On June 12 2010 04:48 link0 wrote: As I have stated earlier, PSI storm does MUCH more damage than EMP. And the instant warp-in + storm is awesome. I don't know why we're even talking about HTs and Psi Storms. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
Listing differences doesn't take the discussion anywhere. Yes, they're great support units, but the difference in an upfront 30-50% burst drop in total life to everything it hits compared to a 50-100% drop over 4 seconds is absolutely enormous. Yeah, we can instagib a lot of Stimmed Marines in a short space of time. You can instagib all of our Zealots just as quickly with one volley of Siege Tank fire after an EMP. Burst-damage is how you kill things quickly. Almost nothing in the Protoss army is particularly bursty. Units with low fire-rates, but high damage like Siege Tanks, Marauders, Vikings and Banshees, and spells like EMP make the Terran army inflict an utterly incredible amount of damage on the first volley, which destroys Protoss hopes of having longer micro-oriented battles where they can make full use of their spells and shields, awkward time-sensitive mechanics like the Void Ray, strong but short range damage of the Immortal and so on. Doesn't do any good to split your opponent's force in half when you've just lost half of it in the first volley. Doesn't do any good to Psi Storm a bunch of stuff to 20% when you've got nothing left to finish it off. Doesn't do any good to have a recharging shield mechanic when nothing you have has any shields to begin with! | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
On June 12 2010 04:20 link0 wrote: The advantages HT have over ghosts: 1. Can warp in at any expansion or at the front lines with enough energy to immediately cast a storm. 2. Has feedback which is great against medivacs, thors, ghosts, banshees, and BCs 3. Can transform into an archon after energy is used up or if EMPed. 4. Although Psi storm does damage over time instead of instantly like EMP, it does 100% damage to marines and 75% damage to Marauders. Whereas EMP deals 33% damage to zealots and 50% damage to stalkers and sentries. 5. Terran units are smaller so they clump much more than Toss units. Therefore a Storm will hit many more targets. So no, Ghosts are not better than HT. They are both great support unit. That's just stating what the HT does, but not saying how it is an advantage. And for that to be any good for this discussion it should come with another list of "disadvantages of HT over ghost". 1. That's true, after we built the gateway, cybernetics, twilight, templar archives, researched Psionic Storm and Khaydarin Amulet. 2. True 3. Which means they do nothing for 12s, while the battle is going on, while the ghosts are still shooting. And with their big size, slow speed and short range, they generally don't do much more than trying to reach the opponents army. 4. 100% no. Rarely do you see any good terran player lose his marines in one storm. Even bad players know they have to move. A storm won't usually take more than 20-50%. The time it takes to deal the 80 damage are 4 full seconds. That's a lot of time. 5. Hitting more targets doesn't matter. A storm could hit 15 marines, if they dodge it they won't lose as much as an undodgeable emp on protoss army. | ||
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statikg
Canada930 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
It's hard to have a conversation with me when you're setting up strawmen all the time. I give up. | ||
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cive
Canada370 Posts
EMP is an awesome skill but its better at hardening the edge they gained. Our first or 2nd push timing with two immortals almost always get there before terran has more than a single EMP shots. as long as both army wipes in that battle he wont have too many ghosts in their next battle. | ||
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GodIsNotHere
Canada395 Posts
On June 12 2010 05:25 statikg wrote: Whoopadee it must be very hard to have a conversation with you as you seem unable to follow the a changing topic. That said perhaps you should consider that there is not supposed to be a hard counter to EMP. Instead, try to follow as the debate changes to what you can do to win the game even if you do get hit by EMP. Don't even bother Whoopadee doesn't want to talk about ways to deal with it he simple wants it nerfed/changed to the point in which its useless, Aka HunterSeeker 2.0. | ||
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Bibdy
United States3481 Posts
On June 12 2010 05:52 cive wrote: Umm, I watched most of pxplay and gom tournaments and ghosts are pretty rare to see because protoss is just always richer and should be richer (its a lot easier for us, protoss, to expand to our natural before them because of the risk that terran has in their first battle). The way I see it, that just means people need to start experimenting with them more. I don't feel the LEAST bit safe to expand if my opponent is getting a bio ball with one or two early Ghosts. I like getting an early Observer and finding out what he's doing before I commit to any tech path or expand. When I spot the bio ball+Ghost composition, all thoughts of expanding and teching go completely out of the window. I think many Terrans really, really underestimate how strong these guys are during an early offensive. Simple M&M blobs are already frightening enough because you absolutely need to fight them at the right location, have the right number of Sentries to stop them kiting and have enough Zealots in your composition to tank for you and I don't think a single one of our Tier 2 options is as deadly as a single Ghost is when added to an M&M blob. Maps with large choke points in, or around, your base or natural make an early ghost push absolutely devastating. Scrap Station and Metalopolis spring to mind. How do you Force Field the army in half when there's barely any natural obstructions to complete the split? | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On June 12 2010 05:57 GodIsNotHere wrote: Don't even bother Whoopadee doesn't want to talk about ways to deal with it he simple wants it nerfed/changed to the point in which its useless, Aka HunterSeeker 2.0. Sigh. I made one suggestion, and it was very far from your ridiculous portrayal in your attempt to make me look bad. I swear I feel like I'm having discussions with jr high people  | ||
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GodIsNotHere
Canada395 Posts
On June 12 2010 06:08 whoopadeedoo wrote: Sigh. I made one suggestion, and it was very far from your ridiculous portrayal in your attempt to make me look bad. I swear I feel like I'm having discussions with jr high people Not a ridiculous idea? Your idea would make it so EMP was worthless once a Protss got any number of sentrys. So yeah it does sound a bit stupid I'm sorry but it does and its just a poor idea. | ||
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Pking
Sweden142 Posts
On June 12 2010 06:17 GodIsNotHere wrote: Not a ridiculous idea? Your idea would make it so EMP was worthless once a Protss got any number of sentrys. So yeah it does sound a bit stupid I'm sorry but it does and its just a poor idea. Actually I think his idea was OK, if we assume the EMP is OP. As it is now, if the sentry casts guardian shield it stays up even if the ghost EMPs the sentry. He suggest the EMP is stopped by the GS but disables it in the progress, which makes EMP still useful (it takes away GS) but makes it harder to actually EMP units. A terran can still engage and EMP the protoss army before GS is cast. If that is too big of a nerf, make it so one EMP disables all GS that it hits (not just the one it hits first).. so to hit an protoss army protected by GS you need two EMP shots rather than one. | ||
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
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whoopadeedoo
United States427 Posts
On June 12 2010 06:46 Pking wrote: Actually I think his idea was OK, if we assume the EMP is OP. As it is now, if the sentry casts guardian shield it stays up even if the ghost EMPs the sentry. He suggest the EMP is stopped by the GS but disables it in the progress, which makes EMP still useful (it takes away GS) but makes it harder to actually EMP units. A terran can still engage and EMP the protoss army before GS is cast. If that is too big of a nerf, make it so one EMP disables all GS that it hits (not just the one it hits first).. so to hit an protoss army protected by GS you need two EMP shots rather than one. My suggestion is that the EMP takes out every GS that is within the EMP AoE radius. A smart EMP could take out multiple GS. It's a really big tradeoff for Toss (certainly not heavily tilted for toss like GodIsNotHere is trying to imply. In fact, if you crunch the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if this actually favors Terran in many situations. But at least it gives Toss a workable option against EMP. | ||
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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GodIsNotHere
Canada395 Posts
On June 12 2010 06:54 whoopadeedoo wrote: My suggestion is that the EMP takes out every GS that is within the EMP AoE radius. A smart EMP could take out multiple GS. It's a really big tradeoff for Toss (certainly not heavily tilted for toss like GodIsNotHere is trying to imply. In fact, if you crunch the numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if this actually favors Terran in many situations. But at least it gives Toss a workable option against EMP. Brainstorm this idea if you want but please don't imply this change would be beneficial to Terran in anyway shape or form. | ||
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