|
On June 12 2010 01:58 Mensab wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:45 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Every Toss "solution" to EMP is to make Toss work harder. The truth is, every solution against terran is to have the opposing race (Zerg or Toss) play at a level above Terran. This is not balanced.
FWIW, I'm a (Diamond) Toss AND Terran player. I can't play Zerg to save my life. So you want what? An anti-emp "lets make the skill cap even lower" button?
No. It's "let's make the skill requirements between races even."
Show nested quote +
I think the perfect solution to the problems of EMP in PvT can be fixed simply by allowing Guardian Shield to absorb an EMP blast, with anything under it being protected. The trade-off for toss is that the GS is destroyed when it gets hit by the EMP (currently, the GS stays active if you cast the spell before the EMP ... this makes no sense to me anyhow). However, Toss will have a workable solution to EMP that does not require any changes that would effect any other matchups.
Oh... Hallucinate needs to be 50/50 and cheap to cast. The End. Overwhelm T with high priority targets, and hell all the toss player needs to do after making the hallucinations is to 1a them just like the rest of his army, once again preserving toss as the 1a2a3a4a (now just 1a) race.
I'm fine with other ideas involving Hallucinate, FB, and EMP range, but all these changes would effect all matchups (some with unforeseen consequences). They require a lot of thought to get right (and probably re-balancing of other values). The main reason I prefer my solution is nothing but TvP is effected.
|
On June 12 2010 01:58 Mensab wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 01:45 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Every Toss "solution" to EMP is to make Toss work harder. The truth is, every solution against terran is to have the opposing race (Zerg or Toss) play at a level above Terran. This is not balanced.
FWIW, I'm a (Diamond) Toss AND Terran player. I can't play Zerg to save my life. So you want what? An anti-emp "lets make the skill cap even lower" button? Show nested quote +
I think the perfect solution to the problems of EMP in PvT can be fixed simply by allowing Guardian Shield to absorb an EMP blast, with anything under it being protected. The trade-off for toss is that the GS is destroyed when it gets hit by the EMP (currently, the GS stays active if you cast the spell before the EMP ... this makes no sense to me anyhow). However, Toss will have a workable solution to EMP that does not require any changes that would effect any other matchups.
Oh... Hallucinate needs to be 50/50 and cheap to cast. The End. Overwhelm T with high priority targets, and hell all the toss player needs to do after making the hallucinations is to 1a them just like the rest of his army, once again preserving toss as the 1a2a3a4a (now just 1a) race.
Because hitting T once for Stims and E for EMP a couple of times at the start of a fight is so much more difficult than a shitload of Fs for Force Field, Fs for Feedback and Ts for Storms. Yeah, Terran take so much more effort to play. How could we have been so selfish?
|
Is there really any point to these kinds of threads? Protoss says emp is OP terran says voidray is OP. No one ever really supports this very well, all the really matter is that each matchup is as close to 50/50 as possible. I've seen plenty of high level games where the terran player never builds ghosts so at least currently they aren't considered so good you have to build them. Blizzard made balance changes to SC1 over a pretty long time period so even if something is OP it is pretty likely they will fix it at some point. In every game ever therte are people complaining something is unfair, you can't make everyone happy and people are pretty biased towards "their" race anyway.
|
I'm personally not saying EMP is OP. It's just toss has no workable solution for EMP; if T builds Ghosts, EMPs are going to strike where and when it wants to strike, regardless of what P does. I can't think of another unit or spell that's analogous.
Void Rays aren't even in the same ballpark of discussion. I just to be absolutely clear, I'm a toss AND terran player. I'm not trying to buff one race over another. I see this issue from both points of view.
|
From an attackers PoV, I feel that EMP is just fine as it is. However from a defending protoss pov it is just over the top.
I don't believe that EMP is OP or IMBA. I simply think the problem is Protoss has zero counter for it from a defending stand point. Simply put there is no other ability in the game that has the means to decimate half your opponents hps instantly and quickly shut down casters. Storm does not come even close to this in power, and did not before it got nerfed yet everyone railed against it. Now if I am the toss and being aggressive, then I believe T needs something like EMP. As I said originally I think it is as an ability fine.
However where my gripe comes against emp is when I am trying to defend my base. If I try and break a T wall with an even or slightly smaller force, chances are I will just lose my army stupidly. The same applies to T if they aren't using emp. I believe that both races have good options here when it comes to breaking walls. The problem comes when Terran uses emp in conjunction with their other tools to break down my wall. It quite simply with a single click of the button, instantly strips any defenders advantage I had, no matter what composition I have built. Now it takes me thought, planning and effort to break a sieged T wall, it should require the same for them. I am sorry but a single button shouldn't instantly render my defensive wall a waste of time.
So if EMP is fine from an attacking PoV, then what do we do to fix the areas that need tuning? Well we could take the blizzard approach like they did with Void rays and nerf the unit breaking it in all other matchups for no good reason. Or we could give protoss a means to defend against it. I have suggested this multiple times and will continue suggesting it.
Shield Battery - This simple building made EMP tolerable in SC:BW because it gave protoss a counter. It didn't affect the matchup from an attacking pov, all it did was give protoss a means to hold defenders advantage if they built them smartly. The same could be done for here as well, and why it isn't with EMP being much more potent and accessible then in SC:BW I don't honestly know. This way T would actually have to plan on how to siege a defended protoss position, instead of toss emp and roll over the wall like it wasn't even built. By the same token, Protoss would need to be proactive in defending their wall as the SB effect would not be automatic. The moment they saw emp go off, they would need to be using the SB to mitigate its effects. Toss would still be taking losses, but would stand a much better chance if their micro was solid.
I would propose something like this in terms of cost.
Shield Battery
Minerals 75
Gas 25
Total Energy 1000
Starting energy 200
Build time 50s
Range 9
Effect range 3
Passive effect Increases shield regeneration rate of all units in range by 2%
Requires Cybernetics Core to build
Activation of the shield battery restores 10% of all units shields within the effect range. Usage costs 200 energy.
Quite simply, this would be the perfect compliment to a protoss wall without being imba. It would really only be used against Early aggression and EMP pushes as serious pushes would still override its effect pretty quickly. I chose a percentage based approach so it affected all units equally, vs being really powerful on some and almost useless on others. Cost might need some tuning to prevent it from being spammed and making a toss wall impossible to break. I would think that making the building large enough would prevent too many from being close enough anyhow. That is also why I set the usage at 200 energy so only 50% of shields could be restored off a full battery.
|
The thing you protoss can't seem to see is simple. We are not playing warcraft 2. The races arent supposed to be exactly the same with the same advantages and disadvantages. Protoss can make forcefield walls and cut terran forces in half. Terran can use EMP and cut down not even half of protoss hitpoints. I would say that well employed forcefields can be just as damaging as EMP and it is used by much cheaper units, which doesn't require its own building and has multiple other excellent spells.
Now everyone is going to say BUT TERRAN CAN DO THIS TO COUNTER THAT. Well, that is exactly what people are saying to you here, maybe you should practice up.
Keep in mind that to get enough ghosts to EMP a large protoss force, you need a ghost academy as well as at least 4 150/150 ghosts which take 40 seconds to build, nearly 2 marauders worth of time, this is not cheap and ghosts are not that strong vs protoss beyond the emp. Templar can also turn into archons quite quickly and easily if you get EMP'd so they hardly become 100% countered.
|
On June 12 2010 03:23 statikg wrote:
The thing you protoss can't seem to see is simple. We are not playing warcraft 2.
Seriously? That's your opening argument?
The races arent supposed to be exactly the same with the same advantages and disadvantages. Protoss can make forcefield walls and cut terran forces in half. Terran can use EMP and cut down not even half of protoss hitpoints. I would say that well employed forcefields can be just as damaging as EMP and it is used by much cheaper units, which doesn't require its own building and has multiple other excellent spells.
Now everyone is going to say BUT TERRAN CAN DO THIS TO COUNTER THAT. Well, that is exactly what people are saying to you here, maybe you should practice up.
Keep in mind that to get enough ghosts to EMP a large protoss force, you need a ghost academy as well as at least 4 150/150 ghosts which take 40 seconds to build, nearly 2 marauders worth of time, this is not cheap and ghosts are not that strong vs protoss beyond the emp. Templar can also turn into archons quite quickly and easily if you get EMP'd so they hardly become 100% countered.
Yes, things cost resources. Bravo. That's like Protoss coming up saying the counter to Psi Storm is "But, look at how much it costs!". When someone has fielded a few of the things, that last thing you're thinking of is "Man, look at how much that stuff costs! He must have had so much trouble building the things! Poor guy!". Thought processes like that just lead down the road of "Welp, he got a few Ghosts. I'm screwed. GG. F10-n". The cost is really just the cost of like one Banshee or one Siege Tank. The Ghost Academy is cheap as hell and you don't need any upgrades. What do you think does more damage in a fight? One EMP that unavoidably reduces the Protoss army's total life by anywhere from 10-25% (half the total life of half the army) right from the start of the battle, and limits his usage of Force Field and Psi Storm, or one Siege Tank? Its honestly insane that more Terrans aren't using them.
What you're really thinking when you see them is "Ahh shit, now what do I need to do?".
So far, all we CAN do is go defensive, spread out the ground army while trying to get HTs, pray he doesn't build more than like 2 of the things and also pray he sits in his base long enough for us to get those HTs. If he decides to push early, and is sensible enough to save some energy for scan (so he can EMP up our cliff, destroy any potential DTs and/or counter Hallucinations) we TEND to get stomped. Its not 100%, but its about as close to a hopeless situation as you're going to get in this game.
Other options include taking a huge risk in weakening your already risky front-line defense to drop his base and hope he falls for the distraction, predictably opening Void Rays to trap him in his base long enough to stall for time and expand or taking on the blob head-on and hoping you can Force Field enough of his force apart from the rest, before he zaps a big chunk of your Sentry energy, to make up for the loss of shields.
All of which require enormous outskilling of a guy building a bio blob, whacking E and clicking a few times.
The big problem here is a Terran ground army is MORE than capable of taking on a Protoss ground army WITHOUT EMP. The damage output to a ground force from a Stimmed M&M blob and Siege Tanks or Banshees is absolutely incredible. Hence why a lot of people don't bother with it. Screw diversity, just spam the shit that rapes Protoss ground armies. But, the ones that do get it, get a HUGE up-front burst of damage to help the fight along and send it over the edge with ease and the Protoss just has to play way, way better, take it in the face and hope for the best.
|
On June 11 2010 18:24 Mudd wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 18:09 Drazzzt wrote:
Almost dividing the opponent's hitpoints by 2 using 2-3 EMP is ridiculously strong and it is really hard to dodge. A common thing I've noticed about most Q_Q'ing toss (notice the lack of pro) is their complete lack of ability to micro.
I know what you mean man i can TOTALLY micro against something that hits instantly and drains all my energy!!!
sounds like youre just a biased terran player, who doesnt want to believe EMP is OP,And as for the person above who said its just as hard as FF and HT / Infestors to use you are dead wrong and you know it, you click all their mana is drained you hit t a click and they die, is that really difficult?
|
:/ What can Toss do against EMP? It goes off EVERY time in pro games, and it goes off EVERY time I play Terran MMG against Toss (I was Diamond top 10 before and after the reset). Toss has no workable solution to EMPs (not saying they they can't win, but they can't do anything about the EMPs). Races should play differently, with different advantages and disadvantages. But give each race a solution to a problem. EMP has no solution and is the only spell/unit I can think of that plays this way in SC2.
Again, I'm a Toss AND Terran player, and I'm tired of Terran players making the argument Toss needs to "stop whining" and "learn to play" Firstly, there is nothing Toss can do about EMP, and secondly, it's unfair to require Toss or Zerg to play at a much higher level than Terran to simply compete. Sorry Terran players, but as a Terran player myself, T really requires the least amount of skill/micro to win in any level below pro. So Terran players, please stop the silly "learn to play" argument. It makes you look silly and hypocritical.
As for shield batteries, the problem is they ruin other balances. All rushes (especially PvP 2 gate rush) will not be viable with shield batteries ... though you can argue this isn't a bad thing 
|
Sorry Bib, I thought you might be able to use your brain and make inferences. Maybe your inability there has something to do with your losses. My point about the costs of ghosts is that a different way to measure balance is whether using the resources/time of an academy + a few ghosts to alternatively make quite a few mauarders and have alot of gas for tanks/air/teching up could be equally desirable. Would I rather have a factory a couple tanks and a few more marauders or an academy and some ghosts? The answer is it depends and so perhaps that is a sign of balance.
|
On June 12 2010 04:00 statikg wrote:
Sorry Bib, I thought you might be able to use your brain and make inferences. Maybe your inability there has something to do with your losses. My point about the costs of ghosts is that a different way to measure balance is whether using the resources/time of an academy + a few ghosts to alternatively make quite a few mauarders and have alot of gas for tanks/air/teching up could be equally desirable. Would I rather have a factory a couple tanks and a few more marauders or an academy and some ghosts? The answer is it depends and so perhaps that is a sign of balance.
Dunno why I bother responding to someone so immature. So, its balanced because you have choices, but we do not? That my success depends on you foolishly picking choice B that will allow me to enter the macrofest battle with you and try to outplay you there, over choice A which requires me to work ten times harder than you, just to break even and stay in the game?
|
staikg, every race has to make these types of decisions. It's a common denominator and irrelevant to our discussion.
|
I'm loving this "Well I play a Protoss AND Terran so my opinion is not bias at all!" kind of statement that seems to floating around here. Seriously I'm not buying it sorry an it might just be me but it seems a lot of Protoss posting here have this very stuck up attitude as they seem top think of them self as very "skilled" an example of this is "T really requires the least amount of skill/micro to win in any level below pro". Yeah it sure sounds like you have No bias at towards that race in which you say you play but thats besides the point. My idea would be to give Protoss a tool to deal with EMP... NOT nerf it into the ground like the long forgotten Hunter-Seeker missile which got hit so hard with the nerf stick it traveled back in time. I really wish these Whine threads give ideas an suggestions instead of "OMFG ITS OVERPOWERED AND COSTS ME EVERY GAME!!!!@!" because that really doesn't get much done shockingly enough.
|
Believe what you want if that's what you need to do to maintain your personal dogma. It's certainly easier then actually debating the issue.
|
How often do player-made balance suggestions get thrown in? How many times did people shriek, scream and cry about how Void Rays should lose their charge completely if they move one pixel, or when switching targets? Lo and behold they went with the conservative option only a scant few people made: reduce the range a bit so Marines have less trouble reaching them.
Believe it or not, discussion here does actually influence the balance process. Blizzard reps do read this site. If a concensus is made about something being ridiculous then they might put some focus testing on it.
|
On June 12 2010 04:11 whoopadeedoo wrote:
Believe what you want if that's what you need to do to maintain your personal dogma. It's certainly easier then actually debating the issue.
Oh I'm sorry is asking for people to talk about it an suggest ideas to give Protoss a reasonable counter to it not allowed on a whine thread? Crazy me I guess I didn't notice that was my personal dogma.. OH WAIT!
|
On June 12 2010 04:07 GodIsNotHere wrote:
I'm loving this "Well I play a Protoss AND Terran so my opinion is not bias at all!" kind of statement that seems to floating around here. Seriously I'm not buying it sorry an it might just be me but it seems a lot of Protoss posting here have this very stuck up attitude as they seem top think of them self as very "skilled" an example of this is "T really requires the least amount of skill/micro to win in any level below pro". Yeah it sure sounds like you have No bias at towards that race in which you say you play but thats besides the point. My idea would be to give Protoss a tool to deal with EMP... NOT nerf it into the ground like the long forgotten Hunter-Seeker missile which got hit so hard with the nerf stick it traveled back in time. I really wish these Whine threads give ideas an suggestions instead of "OMFG ITS OVERPOWERED AND COSTS ME EVERY GAME!!!!@!" because that really doesn't get much done shockingly enough.
Your suggestion, then, is that protoss get a tool to deal with EMP. I applaud your lack of vagueness, sir.
That said, I kind of liked the guardian shield counter a few posts above. In a big battle with a large amount of stimmed m&m the use of guardian shield really reduces the damage by a large percentage, so if EMP took away all guardian shield effects while guardian shield took away the shield-damaging effects of EMP, I think it could be a worthwhile tradeoff.
|
The advantages HT have over ghosts:
1. Can warp in at any expansion or at the front lines with enough energy to immediately cast a storm.
2. Has feedback which is great against medivacs, thors, ghosts, banshees, and BCs
3. Can transform into an archon after energy is used up or if EMPed.
3. Although Psi storm does damage over time instead of instantly like EMP, it does 100% damage to marines and 75% damage to Marauders. Whereas EMP deals 33% damage to zealots and 50% damage to stalkers and sentries.
4. Terran units are smaller so they clump much more than Toss units. Therefore a Storm will hit many more targets.
So no, Ghosts are not better than HT. They are both great support unit.
|
On June 12 2010 04:16 GodIsNotHere wrote:
Oh I'm sorry is asking for people to talk about it an suggest ideas to give Protoss a reasonable counter to it not allowed on a whine thread? Crazy me I guess I didn't notice that was my personal dogma.. OH WAIT!
You've been too lazy to read, so you really shouldn't comment further until you review the posts thus far. I gave a suggestion that fits your demands, except I actually gave a real suggestion and not some ambiguous statement preceded by an useless diatribe calling people liars and whiners.
|
On June 12 2010 04:21 whoopadeedoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 04:16 GodIsNotHere wrote:
Oh I'm sorry is asking for people to talk about it an suggest ideas to give Protoss a reasonable counter to it not allowed on a whine thread? Crazy me I guess I didn't notice that was my personal dogma.. OH WAIT! You've been too lazy to read, so you really shouldn't comment further until you review the posts thus far. I gave a suggestion that fits your demands, except I actually gave a real suggestion and not some ambiguous statement preceded by an useless diatribe calling people liars and whiners.
I have read a them an you can't argue the majority of the posts have just been asking for it to be nerfed(not all but many of them have an for some reason page two is crying over PDD so I guess some people won't be happy until the Raven is made worthless) and few are suggestions. My own suggesting would be changing it to a percentage an would make it similar to feed back were the more energy a target had the more effective it would be.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
