|
I'm sure I'm not the first to realise this, but I haven't been told it so I had to work it out myself:
It's simple. So simple I feel so stupid for losing again and again to meching terrans.
You drop your army on their army when they push, OLs filled with roach hydra works a charm.
When you're not dropping their army, be dropping their mineral line (8 roaches and some hydras to clean up any chasing vikings does well), even pick your troops back up once they've killed the SCV's and off to the next base/home.
Of course you still have to play well, expand, ect, and do it relatively well, but it just freaking works. Don't be too scared of losing a few OLs filled with troops, imagine if you'd just run in on the ground nothing would reach the target at all.
Currently elated at this simple revelation, worked 3 games in a row just as I was on the verge of ragequitting from mech stompings.
I'd include replays but really it's exactly the same as a baneling drop, just with non-explosive units =P (and I can't upload right now, capped internet). Dodge vikings and keep empty OLs shielding your other ones to not lose troops.
Don't theorycraft it, it's not something that can be done on paper, and I'm sure it's possible to screw up royally so don't come crying if you try it and lose. Go practise it till it works.
I'll add replays later if they're requested.
Edit: Replays
2 examples both on steppes of war, niether opponent particularly amazing but you get the idea at least.
|
tbh I don't see this working lategame when terran gets a sufficient # of vikings. But hopefully by then you have upgraded ultras.
You can't just 'dodge vikings' if he keeps them directly on top of his army (every good terran does this already to protect against broodlords).
However mid-game it can work well at stopping/delaying tank push to last you until you can get to hive tech.
|
|
|
It's funny how about 20% of threads are ZvT mech lol.
I like this idea, I haven't faced off against too many meching Terrans because I usually don't let them get there. But if they do, I will try this. I usually find some way into their base, be it backdoor, burrow-move, nydus. I never use drop but it's because everything else always works so well.
Good idea, thumbs up! ^_^
|
I know there's a big post discussing terran mech V zerg, but this is not a big "imba, nerf" thread which that one has turned in to, it is a big solution that I felt deserved some attention.
If mods consider it a double post feel free just to tac it on to the other thread or whatever.
Adding replays any minute.
|
OP: I was just about to post the same solution when I saw your post, nice. I had just finished testing various matchups in the unit-tester. Most of the time I included banelings, but just dropping roaches/lings works great too. The one risk is losing ovies full of valuable units, but that is mitigated by putting empty overlords in front of the filled overlords during the drop.
Glad to hear you tried this out in some real games and that it works, as my tests really look like its going to work. Even measuring the cost, with this solution if you get the right drop payload Zerg is able to win cost for cost versus mech, easily.
I think the reason this works is simple. You are nullifying the range 13 siege tank advantage and turning the splash of the sieged tanks against themselves. I added a few vikings and Thors and the Overlords still die too slowly to prevent this drop from occuring.
I have yet to test drops on a bunker/turret/siege tank defensive strong point, that probably will not work without a ridiculous amount of overlords.
|
Thanks Johnny.
Yeah I wouldn't reccomend it against a particularly fortified strong point, just drop it everywhere the strongpoint isn't! =)
|
This isn't exactly any new revelation. I've seen people try this, partly successfully, partly not.
|
This only works if the T sucks and if the map permits it. Some maps/positions you will never beat a good T (scrap station, horizontal spawns on kulas ravine, LT come to mind). Once you play a Terran that knows what he is doing he'll be pretty much immune to cute drops/nydus harass and then we'll be back to square 1 wondering wtf to do against a mech army that eats everything a Z can throw at it as it 1a's across the map.
|
OP: The first replay was a nice example of this working, but the 2nd replay is just lopsided because of the Terran ONLY having siege tanks.
That said, I think this works well, especially since Thor suck at taking down overlords. It takes advantage of several Terran weaknesses actually, their lack of mobility (when your not dropping on top of their ball of death), and the mediocre ability of Mech to shoot down overlords and fight in close quarters.
The terran counter would be making more Vikings generally, which then allows you to make more hydra, which is a good thing.
|
This only works if the T sucks and if the map permits it. Some maps/positions you will never beat a good T (scrap station, horizontal spawns on kulas ravine, LT come to mind). Once you play a Terran that knows what he is doing he'll be pretty much immune to cute drops/nydus harass and then we'll be back to square 1 wondering wtf to do against a mech army that eats everything a Z can throw at it as it 1a's across the map.
Rather than 1a'ing if you don't make drop works couldn't you just drop...better?
Thanks for your useless whining though Elite. Does that get you many wins?
Be constructive. What exactly does the better T do to be immune to you dropping a ton of roaches and hydras on his tanks?
Spread out tanks = Spread your drops, they'll splash each other anyway.
Too many vikings = you didn't harass drop well enough so they have too many vikings and you lose.
The aim of ZvTmech in my mind is to constantly keep pressure on the T from the moment you research drop, which for me is practically the moment I go lair or as soon as circumstances permit. Do this properly and you will win. Don't and you will lose.
|
this is hard to do because most mech also get mass marines to save gas which can attack your overlords and kill them before they get to unload
|
On June 03 2010 05:21 Sealteam wrote:Show nested quote +This only works if the T sucks and if the map permits it. Some maps/positions you will never beat a good T (scrap station, horizontal spawns on kulas ravine, LT come to mind). Once you play a Terran that knows what he is doing he'll be pretty much immune to cute drops/nydus harass and then we'll be back to square 1 wondering wtf to do against a mech army that eats everything a Z can throw at it as it 1a's across the map. Rather than 1a'ing if you don't make drop works couldn't you just drop...better? Thanks for your useless whining though Elite. Does that get you many wins? Be constructive. What exactly does the better T do to be immune to you dropping a ton of roaches and hydras on his tanks? Spread out tanks = Spread your drops, they'll splash each other anyway. Too many vikings = you didn't harass drop well enough so they have too many vikings and you lose. The aim of ZvTmech in my mind is to constantly keep pressure on the T from the moment you research drop, which for me is practically the moment I go lair or as soon as circumstances permit. Do this properly and you will win. Don't and you will lose.
I think his point was perfectly legitimate no need to be an ass hole
|
T will usually have some form of anti-air to stop any form of muta harass or overlord drops/nydus openings into their base. When they push out with surplus minerals any high level T will plop down turrets to detect roaches and use it as a form of AA.
|
The terran counter would be making more Vikings generally, which then allows you to make more hydra, which is a good thing.
Bizarre. I consider that a bad thing. Before roach supply change to counteract the efficiency of roaches I would build vikings in hellion-tank-thor to force Zerg to vary his unit composition for anti-air(among the other benefits of building viking), as roach-hydra was much worse than just pure roach against mech. Hydralisk may kill viking but in cost they did terrible against everything else mech. They would go too roach heavy to counter the mech army? Viking would have free reign to take out tons of overlord. In general viking make great overlord deterrents which means deterring nydus and base drops, and are decent support units for both ground and air, even if not cost effective on their own in either case.
|
On June 03 2010 05:16 Johnny_Vegas wrote:
The terran counter would be making more Vikings generally, which then allows you to make more hydra, which is a good thing.
making hydra against mech is never a good thing. Every single unit that comes out of the factory is great against hydras.
|
Yeah this is a good idea. If you just keep doom dropping enough to get them on the defensive, you can often stall long enough to get broodlords, which really plow through mech nicely.
|
On June 03 2010 05:21 Sealteam wrote:Show nested quote +This only works if the T sucks and if the map permits it. Some maps/positions you will never beat a good T (scrap station, horizontal spawns on kulas ravine, LT come to mind). Once you play a Terran that knows what he is doing he'll be pretty much immune to cute drops/nydus harass and then we'll be back to square 1 wondering wtf to do against a mech army that eats everything a Z can throw at it as it 1a's across the map. Rather than 1a'ing if you don't make drop works couldn't you just drop...better? Thanks for your useless whining though Elite. Does that get you many wins? Be constructive. What exactly does the better T do to be immune to you dropping a ton of roaches and hydras on his tanks? Spread out tanks = Spread your drops, they'll splash each other anyway. Too many vikings = you didn't harass drop well enough so they have too many vikings and you lose. The aim of ZvTmech in my mind is to constantly keep pressure on the T from the moment you research drop, which for me is practically the moment I go lair or as soon as circumstances permit. Do this properly and you will win. Don't and you will lose.
You're entire strategy revolves around exploiting mistakes made the T. As you play better Ts they will make less and less mistakes until your drops end up losing you many more resources than the T, making it pointless to continue trying to drop. I noticed that your replay says it was a platinum league game, I'm not sure if this actually means diamond because the replay site hasn't made a higher league label yet or if it actually means platinum. If you actually are in platinum league then your opinion means nothing because even most diamond players are trash.
I play zerg and get plenty of wins, thanks for asking though. I'm quite confident I'm a better player than you and have played against some very good T players who would LOL at this crap because they actually know how to be aware of what's happening in the game and know what Z is doing. This strat is more like a gimmick, and not a sustainable, equilibrium-style solution to the mech problem.
|
anything that exploits a mech terran's immobility is a step in the right direction
|
If you can massdrop, you can mass muta. But you CANT mass muta vs terran since they should bring along anti-air if they are decent players, I cant see how the much slower overlords would survive those stimmed marines. If dropping becomes common, then bringing along like a few marines will become equally common for terran; that is a no-investment from the terran-side, a good terran should bring marines already as it is since they usually have a huge mineralsurplus allready when going mech.
I dont see this is a solution, but might work sometimes, just as burrow-move roaches works sometimes. But its still up to the Terran to loose TvZ, the best Z can hope for is abusing misstakes. If T play solid they just wont loose.
I know people love the flare, gimmicky stuff, but its not solid. You cant consistently do well with stuff like that, as somebody else pointed out, that is all about abusing misstakes of your opponents. What do you do with an opponent that dosent do flagrant misstakes like that?
|
The counter to mech play is mutalisks. Not only mutas in the beginning, it's tech switching to mutas, muta contain, muta muta mutas. Go watch how Sen uses mutas against TLO.
If you don't play Terran mech you don't understand how hard it is to counter mutas. Thors take a long time to produce and are incredibly immobile. Vikings get raped by mutas. Defending an expo requires lots of turrets that are just wasted money.
|
On June 03 2010 07:14 s031720 wrote:
If you can massdrop, you can mass muta. But you CANT mass muta vs terran since they should bring along anti-air if they are decent players, I cant see how the much slower overlords would survive those stimmed marines. If dropping becomes common, then bringing along like a few marines will become equally common for terran; that is a no-investment from the terran-side, a good terran should bring marines already as it is since they usually have a huge mineralsurplus allready when going mech.
I dont see this is a solution, but might work sometimes, just as burrow-move roaches works sometimes. But its still up to the Terran to loose TvZ, the best Z can hope for is abusing misstakes. If T play solid they just wont loose.
I know people love the flare, gimmicky stuff, but its not solid. You cant consistently do well with stuff like that, as somebody else pointed out, that is all about abusing misstakes of your opponents. What do you do with an opponent that dosent do flagrant misstakes like that?
You quit
|
I'm going to add two things to my original thoughts on this, which kind of damper this as a very viable strategy in late game.
In watching the qxc vs Sheth recent replays where Sheth (zerg) couldn't scratch the turtling qxc, its clear that the viability of ovie drops goes way down with 200 supply armies, as the terran amasses more supply-free turrets and hits critical mass with his tank/viking/thor army composition.
I suppose theoretically the zerg could use HIS unlimited resources to make a ridiculous amount of overlords to reduce the number of filled Overlords from getting shot down, which is something Sheth did not really do. Even at 200 supply and a ridiculous amount of resources 100 min overlords will start to add up however.
The other thing that reduces this strat's viability is 200 supply terran have no problem blanketing the map with sensor towers, which weaken this strat even more.
|
Hit and run with mutas killing anything that can detect (Ravens) Use Burrowing and annoyance techniques to get him to drain his scans.
If he clusters, O-Lord Drops should win. Also Burrowing infestors/Roaches, Also burrowed ling/bling. Then when he re-supplies his raven. Get back in there and kill it.
Take away the distance. Take away the strength.
|
On June 04 2010 04:12 Ragnar4 wrote:
Hit and run with mutas killing anything that can detect (Ravens) Use Burrowing and annoyance techniques to get him to drain his scans.
If he clusters, O-Lord Drops should win. Also Burrowing infestors/Roaches, Also burrowed ling/bling. Then when he re-supplies his raven. Get back in there and kill it.
Take away the distance. Take away the strength.
very good paper-starcraft, need to see a replay of you doing that, especially the part "mutas killing anything that can detect" when there are thors with 11 range AA
|
The problem with mutas is that they just turtle until they have 20 siege tanks, 10 helions, some rines and 4-6 thors and a move and kill you. Even at the top level only a select few zergs can beat this unit composition if terran's on 3 bases and it doesn't even matter if zerg has the rest of the map.
|
I suppose this could work, asuming he doesn't have a bunch of vikings with his army or somthin, but I think infestors are the best way to go against mech.
Charge in with roaches with the infestors behind, and then mind control the majority of his army, works like a charm. Of course, if he has some ghosts, this won't work out as well, but if you have them relatively spread out they can't all get emped, right? 
|
On June 04 2010 04:19 Trok67 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 04:12 Ragnar4 wrote:
Hit and run with mutas killing anything that can detect (Ravens) Use Burrowing and annoyance techniques to get him to drain his scans.
If he clusters, O-Lord Drops should win. Also Burrowing infestors/Roaches, Also burrowed ling/bling. Then when he re-supplies his raven. Get back in there and kill it.
Take away the distance. Take away the strength. very good paper-starcraft, need to see a replay of you doing that, especially the part "mutas killing anything that can detect" when there are thors with 11 range AA
Day9's thread TLO vs Loner. TLO brings Loner to his knees using Ling/Infestor. With the Burrowing annoyance and scan draining. No ravens were harmed during the making of this video
Sen vs TLO. Sen abuses TLO's 1:1:1 mech with ovie drops in Game one.
I've only watched a few of the diamond streamers here at TL assassinate Ravens and burrow roaches. Therapist uses this tactic exclusively vs Mech. Watch him.
Do't ask me to video anything. I only have 8 APM.
|
On June 04 2010 05:33 Ragnar4 wrote:
Day9's thread TLO vs Loner. TLO brings Loner to his knees using Ling/Infestor. With the Burrowing annoyance and scan draining. No ravens were harmed during the making of this video
Sen vs TLO. Sen abuses TLO's 1:1:1 mech with ovie drops in Game one.
I've only watched a few of the diamond streamers here at TL assassinate Ravens and burrow roaches. Therapist uses this tactic exclusively vs Mech. Watch him.
Do't ask me to video anything. I only have 8 APM.
Draining scans is always a cute little micro trick to pull about 300 minerals out of your opponent's pocket. Dealing with slow-pushes that take the center of the map, expand to 2-3 bases to support a big army, and throw up turrets (sometimes with sensor towers) is a lot more difficult in the context of burrowed units.
|
Teching muta to force thors and keeping their thor count low for a while while you are gaining econ on him works. Mutas can handle 1 to 2 thors, but as soon as that 3rd one pops you have to play tag with mutas. Then when he gets 6 your mutas just have to dodge them. While thats going on just get burrow roach and banelings. The most important part of the strat is to save every muta and let them heal while you harass.
And you can add a hive tech of your choice against a pure mech honestly. Broods do well if they over invest on thors and can't mass up enough vikings. But I still prefer Ultras as much as they "suck". The damage soaking is good for your banelings and they can take advantage of nydus and provide better map control then broods.
|
On June 04 2010 06:03 ajfirecracker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 04 2010 05:33 Ragnar4 wrote:
Day9's thread TLO vs Loner. TLO brings Loner to his knees using Ling/Infestor. With the Burrowing annoyance and scan draining. No ravens were harmed during the making of this video
Sen vs TLO. Sen abuses TLO's 1:1:1 mech with ovie drops in Game one.
I've only watched a few of the diamond streamers here at TL assassinate Ravens and burrow roaches. Therapist uses this tactic exclusively vs Mech. Watch him.
Do't ask me to video anything. I only have 8 APM. Draining scans is always a cute little micro trick to pull about 300 minerals out of your opponent's pocket. Dealing with slow-pushes that take the center of the map, expand to 2-3 bases to support a big army, and throw up turrets (sometimes with sensor towers) is a lot more difficult in the context of burrowed units.
I dig what you're saying.
I was just asked to demonstrate the things that I was suggesting be used to win the game.
These resources are those demonstrations.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
